Still waiting for it to happen. Currently top 5 or thereabouts.
NBA 2015-2016
- Thread starter Eboue
- Start date
Still waiting for it to happen. Currently top 5 or thereabouts.
After Sunday night I've got at least half a dozen "I can't believe I said that last week" posts.
We all have our "I can't believe I said that 5 years ago" posts
I'm a Heat fan and loved LeBron's time there, but have never considered him better than Kobe in his prime (around the time he dropped 81 points on the Raptors). Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan I think we will ever see in this lifetime. Fortunately, I grew up with MJ and got to see the real deal.
I disagree regarding Kobe>Lebron. Different positions, but by any metric aside from championships Lebron was/is the better player. Can see why you think Kobe was the closest resemblance to Jordan though, I still think prime Wade is in with a shout however.
My earlier point was that Kobe should be in the conversation given his accolades. If LeBron is there, then he should be viewed as a contemporary of Kobe's.
By the time I got heavily into the NBA Kobe was declining. Not a whole lot for the first few years, but still a little below his best. So IMO LeBron is the better player. Although I accept that my view is distorted by my age and stuff.
Kobe's public image is distorted by the ridiculous notion that he was carried to 3 rings by Shaq. He was their best performer during the WCFs.
Those 2005-2007 seasons Kobe was an absolute beast! Those consecutive 50+ point games, don't think I ever saw anything like that, don't think we ever will. What could've been if the Lakers put together any semblance of a playoff team. I mean Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Devean George, Chris Mihm...Really?!
I'll disagree again then, Lebron's a clear step above.
In what regards ? Kobe has everything Lebron does and has more championship success.
Who does Kyrie credit his last gasp game 7 winning pull-up?
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Kobe's got the volume stats sure, but his increased championship success involved him being the 2nd-best player on a team with a top-10 all time player running the show at least twice. He had three titles before winning a finals mvp award, that's pretty condemning. Furthermore he won one of his despite going 4-24 in a game 7, can you imagine Lebron ever being that bad and still getting media recognition? There's an argument to be made that he was overly selfish. He put the team on his back a fair bit, and achieved great success like that, but when it comes down to it he was an above-average shooter with the ability to completely brick games due to the same mentality. Lebron can do the same, but has the distribution ability of a point guard which can bail him out when his shots don't fall. Lebron's a far better defensive player, better rebounder, better shot-blocker and is far more efficient when shooting. Kobe got hot once in a while.
You're underselling Kobe's value and inflating Shaq's. The rest of your post is just selective cherrypicking of negative aspects whilst omitting the positive ones. When you look at Kobe's overall body of work, which is 20 NBA seasons, 5 Championships during two separate periods, 3rd leading all time scorer in the history of basketball etc its quite clear he is one of the all time greats. LeBron still has time to eclipse some of Kobe's stats in terms of Championships won, scoring etc, but there is very little between them in terms of the all time greats discussion, and of course neither is close to Jordan.
Some of it is, but saying Lebron was a better rebounder, passer, defender and team-player is pretty far from cherrypicking. I'm not saying Kobe sucked, he's a top-10 player of all-time, I just think Lebron is a level above (but still a few below Jordan). Having watched them both, the only thing that Kobe could do better was volume shooting and scoring contested shots, I am struggling to think of any other facet of basketball he was better at. I am removing the career comparison because of course Kobe has 'more' of everything as he's played for a longer time, I don't think it holds any relevance when comparing players who are already considered greats. More, I think there's a fair gap between them if we are discussing "Who was the better basketball player?".
They had a great team until Kobe forced out Shaq and Phil Jackson. When Kobe was supposed to be at his peak the Lakers missed the playoffs despite having Lamar Odom and Caron Butler as teammates. Meanwhile Lebron took a team to the finals with Larry Hughes and a broken down Ilgauskas as teammates.
He's never been the passer or defender Lebron is.
Kobe is comfortably better at shooting than Lebron, but the same could be said vis a vis Jordan. Though I don't know why we have to compare them constantly; to me Lebron is a modern Magic Johnson on steroids (not literally).
These top 5 or 10 lists are also quite subjective given how the game has changed. Who knows what Bill Russell or Wilt could do now or in the 90's? Jordan would've been even more destructive with no hand checking. Also, Kareem is still underrated.
These top 5 or 10 lists are also quite subjective given how the game has changed. Who knows what Bill Russell or Wilt could do now or in the 90's? Jordan would've been even more destructive with no hand checking. Also, Kareem is still underrated.
Kobe was capable of the unpredictable and performances you'll never forget, maybe even more so than Jordan. 81, 62 in three quarters, the consecutive 50+ and 40+ games, the numerous buzzer beaters and incredible plays. With James, you have the 25 straight points against Detroit and he was dominant in series against the Celtics andf dragged an average Cavs team to the Finals but still, all-time great performances in single games? Not for me, it's mostly just 28-8-8 and that's what you're going to get from him. Electrifying performances? The near triple double in MSG was nice but Bryant scored 61 in MSG just a week earlier for example.
The "Shaq carried Kobe" argument is flawed as well, you need good/great players around you to win rings. Duncan had them, Jordan, James at the Cavs, everyone. Just the fact that James left his hometown franchise to team up with two other elite players in which was technically Wade's team tarnishes his legacy imo. Bryant sucked in his last few years in the league but don't forget how amazing and unstoppable he was in the middle of the '00s. That level is something James never has and never will reach, just my opinion of course.
Yes, that's one aspect of his game that has been lacking over the years.
Isn't Kobe the highest assister who isn't a PG in NBA history?
And 9 NBA all-defensive first teams?
"He can't pass." "He can't defend."
2 criticisms thrown at Kobe that stats don't seem to back up.
And 9 NBA all-defensive first teams?
"He can't pass." "He can't defend."
2 criticisms thrown at Kobe that stats don't seem to back up.
Apparently Kevin Durant is Warriors' top priority when FA opens up next month. What a team that would be - Curry, Klay, Durant and Green.
No it's James. He's about 500 ahead of him having played about 400 less games.
9 time All-Defensive First Team selection says otherwise. Kobe was the best perimeter defender since Jordan.
It's like saying Nani was lazy and never tracked back.
I won't say the the relationship between Kobe and Shaq wasn't frosty, but Shaq and Jerry didn't see eye to eye either. Shaq wanted a massive contract which Jerry refused and Shaq saw an opportunity to play with DWade who was establishing himself as a bona-fide all-star under Riley.
He was legitimately a great defender for 4-5 of those years. The rest were won on reputation. He's been terrible for the last 7-8.
I'm going to assume you meant highest assister per game because other posters have already addressed the rate/total argument. The answer is no, he averages the same assists per game as Igoudala with a much higher usage rate. He averages less than Rick Barry, Michael Jorsan, Dwyane Wade, etc. Kobe averaged 60% as many assists as lebron.
Wilt Chamberlain averaged 4.4 assists per game. Kobe averaged 4.7.
Could you blame him with some of the scrubs he played with from 2005 to 2008? Lebron would've skipped town at first mention of Kwame...
Yes, that would pretty much put next year's league to bed.
What are you two responding to? I said Kobe was never the passer lebron was, I didn't say he was physically incapable of passing the ball.
Lebron took a team with 40% shooting Larry Hughes as the second best player to the finals.
...and proceeded to get swept by the Spurs in the finals. Who did they play in the ECP?
I didn't say you said Kobe never passed the ball. A lot of people in general love to say that he didn't pass the ball.
Well yeah if you are comparing Kobe and LeBron then definitely Kobe didnt pass the ball ENOUGH. He has 6300 assists. Lebron has 6800 already having played fewer games and prolly still got another 6-7 years in his tank. Lebron has pretty averaged 27, 7 and 7 his entire career.
I meant in total and already acknowledged that he has less assists than LeBron.
I agree he became a worse defender, or 'saved' himself when it came to playing defense in his later years.
He got them on reputation, in your opinion. He still got 9 selections. Have many players got more selections?
He obviously has a different skill set to LeBron. I agree that he's not as good a passer as LeBron. Just not as bad as people, not Eboue, would have you believe.
They played the number one seed Pistons. And so what if they get swept? When lebron had a horrible supporting cast he got swept in the finals. When Kobe had a horrible supporting cast he watched the playoffs from his couch.
I've always been fascinated by insistence of sports fans to legitimise and the legacy of great players whilst they are still have years to give. Just enjoy it and appreciate LeBron for who he is.