Defense is always entertaining in it's own right IMO.
Nba 2012-13
- Thread starter ArmchairCritic
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I guess if you are into that kind of thing. I found them extremely boring and annoying. I was never a fan of either Ben or 'Sheed, though Ben was pretty good defensively. The east was also pretty weak at that time, IIRC. This was after Reggie retired, right?
Kobe and Shaq fighting like little bitches played a big part in the Pistons winning that championship. Those two couldn't see eye to eye that season.
Kobe and Shaq fighting like little bitches played a big part in the Pistons winning that championship. Those two couldn't see eye to eye that season.
Pretty good defensively? Ben Wallace was easily one of the top five defenders of all time.
Only player that ever shut down Shaq.
"It's definitely unnecessary, it's definitely excessive, I'm not sure it was flagrant two though.." 
Heated game at Minnesota. Looks like the Heat are going to win it. Barea tossed out with flagrant two.
Great game from Wade again. Birdman is still flying.
Heated game at Minnesota. Looks like the Heat are going to win it. Barea tossed out with flagrant two.
Great game from Wade again. Birdman is still flying.
He shouldn't have been ejected. Officials should have called the foul on Allen for pushing off. Then once that didn't happen they should have called a flagrant on Barea but not ejected him.
It looked a bit soft I agree, and I think the key part in it was retaliation (at the refs). But that "push" by Allen? No way that's a foul. Barea tried to flop, the refs didn't fall for it, he got mad, and for no reason he went after Allen like a mad cow (in the sense that there was no reason for him to do it).
What the commentators said is still funny though, because unless you change the rules, that looks like the definition of a flagrant two to me.
Come on, you could see Allen's arm go out. Maybe there was a flop in it too but Allen wasn't totally innocent. I think part of the announcer's point was the inconsistently in the calls between games.
If that's a foul on Allen then Barea has to be ejected for that. We're arguing that Barea's ejection was a bit soft, and you're arguing for what would have been a softer call?
It was a normal play (by Allen) that you see tens of times every game. Nothing in it. Allen was even going the other way, so he wasn't even trying to make space for himself. Barea came at him with his body and Allen tried to shield him with his arm, then Barea tried to flop to make Allen look like he was pushing him. Was an easy (no) call for the refs.
It was a normal play (by Allen) that you see tens of times every game. Nothing in it. Allen was even going the other way, so he wasn't even trying to make space for himself. Barea came at him with his body and Allen tried to shield him with his arm, then Barea tried to flop to make Allen look like he was pushing him. Was an easy (no) call for the refs.
I agree it was a normal play. I'm just saying that if it was called a push off like it should have been, nothing else happens.
Actually he was not. May be in the top 10 based on your personal choice. I would have Russel, Rodman, Mutombo, Duncan, Hakeem, Payton, Scottie,Jordan etc. all ahead of him.
In the finals they won, these were Shaq's numbers in the 5 games - 34,29,14,36,20 @ 26.6/game. Hardly a shut down job, huh? The feud between Kobe and Shaq played a major role in the Lakers downfall that series. It was the final straw before Shaq went to the Heat.
The east was also pretty shit during that time. I remember 2-3 sub .500 teams made the playoffs from that conference during those years.
Rodman was better on Shaq than Wallace ever was.
You do a great job with the youth matches threads, Goo. I love it.
Actually he was. Incredible block and steal numbers to go with the best help defender of all time. He changed so many shots that were taken by players who he wasn't guarding that didn't even show up in the numbers. The clear top 3 IMO are Wallace Russell and Rodman in no particular order. After that there are some great defenders but they aren't in the same tier.
Ben Wallace being one of the greatest defenders ever isn't just my opinion like how I think Carmelo is overrated or how Bibby's Kings should have won a few titles. Wallace is widely regarded as one of the best defenders of all time. Saying he was pretty good is like saying "yeah Ray Allen could shoot, I guess".
Ben Wallace being one of the greatest defenders ever isn't just my opinion like how I think Carmelo is overrated or how Bibby's Kings should have won a few titles. Wallace is widely regarded as one of the best defenders of all time. Saying he was pretty good is like saying "yeah Ray Allen could shoot, I guess".
Nowhere in the top 5.
"He changed so many shots that were taken by players who he wasn't guarding that didn't even show up in the numbers"
That is true with any good defender. It wasn't some special trait only applicable to Wallace. Also, he offered very little going forward.
C-Webb's Kings or Bibby's Kings?
I don't know if they should have won a "few" titles, imo that is a ridiculous exaggeration, but yeah the one they lost to the Lakers in the West Final was the closest they came. I remember that series vividly as that was the time I really started hating the Lakers and liked a basketball team after MJ. I was rooting for Webb and was a fan of Peja and Vlade. Liked Bobby J and Hedo from the bench too. Horry's three pointer is still etched in my mind. The ref decided that series. That was my first basketball heartbreak.
"He changed so many shots that were taken by players who he wasn't guarding that didn't even show up in the numbers"
That is true with any good defender. It wasn't some special trait only applicable to Wallace. Also, he offered very little going forward.
C-Webb's Kings or Bibby's Kings?
I don't know if they should have won a "few" titles, imo that is a ridiculous exaggeration, but yeah the one they lost to the Lakers in the West Final was the closest they came. I remember that series vividly as that was the time I really started hating the Lakers and liked a basketball team after MJ. I was rooting for Webb and was a fan of Peja and Vlade. Liked Bobby J and Hedo from the bench too. Horry's three pointer is still etched in my mind. The ref decided that series. That was my first basketball heartbreak.
How does his limited offensive ability have anything to do with whether or not he was one of the greatest defensive players ever?
Andrew Bynum's hairKobe going to the locker room after only 4 minutes. Hopefully nothing serious. This season just sucks.
Lakers have given up 71 points at HT. brilliant.
Anyone else reckon the Nuggets are shaping up to be a serious contendor?
Their second unit is probably one of the best in the league, not many team have the players who can cope with their size and speed and their home record is amazing.
Their second unit is probably one of the best in the league, not many team have the players who can cope with their size and speed and their home record is amazing.
The timberwolves Harlem shake video is brilliant
Yep. The upcoming Memphis-Denver series should be a cracker.
Lakers finally showing some consistency this season. We have given up 67pts at HT after giving up 71 at HT yesterday.
Good to see the 30 mins Antoni spends coaching defense are being put to good use.
Good to see the 30 mins Antoni spends coaching defense are being put to good use.
Kobe. fecking. Bryant.
That is all.
That is all.
Jazz lost too. If Houston lose as well it will have been a perfect day for the Lakers.
Are we seeing Kobe at his best? I honestly think he's playing at a higher level than he's ever played in previous years.
Current records:
Miami: 45-14 (.763)
New York 37-21 (.638)
Detroit: 23-40 (.365)
I must apologize to Detroit, they've managed to outplay the Bobcats (.213), Magic (.274), Wizards (.322) and Cavs (.344).
They're bad, but they're not Orlando Magic bad.
Actually he was not. May be in the top 10 based on your personal choice. I would have Russel, Rodman, Mutombo, Duncan, Hakeem, Payton, Scottie,Jordan etc. all ahead of him.
In the finals they won, these were Shaq's numbers in the 5 games - 34,29,14,36,20 @ 26.6/game. Hardly a shut down job, huh? The feud between Kobe and Shaq played a major role in the Lakers downfall that series. It was the final straw before Shaq went to the Heat.
The east was also pretty shit during that time. I remember 2-3 sub .500 teams made the playoffs from that conference during those years.
Rodman was better on Shaq than Wallace ever was.
You do a great job with the youth matches threads, Goo. I love it.
I didn't mean he always shut him down, just that he pulled it off several times. Shaq was unstoppable at his best, which I should mention is what I'm referring to. I'm sure several people shut him down as 'The Big Cactus'.
Rodman is a fantastic defender, no doubt, though I can't say I remember him shutting down Shaq I can believe he managed it. In his prime Shaq was allowed to just run people over, so it wasn't really even a fair contest.
Not that I minded!
Yeah, Eboue, you've had a 'mare rating Wallace that high as an all-time defensive player. There have been shitloads of better defenders, and what is more, they actually contributed to the offensive end and didn't take half the game off to concentrate on defense.
If anyone has had a mare, it is you two who seem to think that offensive contributions are relevant to who was the better defensive player.
Wallace won the NBA Defensive Player Of The Year Award 4 times, tied with Mutombo for most ever. In Wallace's Piston years he averaged 13 rebounds, 3 blocks and 1.5 steals per game. (He also shot 48%, for the record) According to basketball-reference.com, he has the best modern era defensive win shares season. He is number 5 all time on their defensive rating stat, where he also holds the best single season rating.
Here is where he stands with a few comparable big men.
Blocks per 36 minutes
Ibaka 3.5
Mourning 3.3
Mutombo 3.2
Hakeem 3.1
Robinson 3.1
Camby 2.9
Walton 2.8
Ewing 2.6
Wallace 2.4
Shaq 2.3
Duncan 2.2
Howard 2.2
Garnett 1.5
Parrish 1.5
Bosh 1.1
Laimbeer 1.0
Williams 0.9
Barkley 0.8
Malone 0.8
Rodman 0.7
Steals per 36 minutes
Hakeem 1.8
Wallace 1.5
Robinson 1.5
Barkley 1.5
Malone 1.4
Garnett 1.3
Camby 1.2
Ewing 1.0
Walton 1.0
Howard 1.0
Williams 0.9
Laimbeer 0.8
Bosh 0.8
Rodman 0.8
Duncan 0.7
Parrish 0.7
Mourning 0.8
Shaq 0.6
Mutombo 0.5
Ibaka 0.5
His stats alone mean he deserves to be considered among the best defensive players of all time. The fact that people watching him in his prime rated him so highly helps his case even more. (I left out Chamberlain and Russell firstly because it was a different game back then but also because we don't have reliable stats on them for all things necessary)
Brilliant game between NY and OKC. The last possession from the Knicks was horrible.
Why are those stats per 36 minutes and not per game? Certainly being able to play more minutes per game does relate to being a better defensive player..
top ten at a stretch. Bill Russell, Hakeem,Robinson,Pippen, Mutumbo, Jordan and Rodman off the top of my head are all better.Because it adjusts for playing time, coaches decisions, teammate strength, era differences. It is like looking at shots per goal.
I'm not sure what you mean by team strength or coach decisions.. You have one of the best five defenders in the history of the NBA, how would the strength of your team matter if you're that good?
Those stats aren't really an accurate measure for how good a player is defensively, as it would be difficult for you, for example, to show why Ben Wallace is a top 5 defensive player (with 2.4 blocks and 1.5 steals per 36 minutes) while Andre kirilenko isn't (with 2.3 blocks and 1.6 steals per 36 minutes).. (Javale McGee would average 3.2 blocks per 36 minutes too!)
Although blocks and steals are important for any defensive player, they're still not enough (IMO) to decide that somebody is a top 5 defensive player in the history of the NBA, especially with stats like Wallace's (which are good, but not out-of-this-world-good)..
And by the way, I'm not sure I would put the name player averaging less than 2 fouls per game on the list of the top 5 defenders of all time anyway.
The reason you would do it is because some coaches (like George Karl with your example Javale McGee!) make bad decisions and good players don't get enough minutes. Another reason is that if you have Kevin Love backing up your PF and C, you are going to play the starters less than if you have Andrea Bargnani.
You are right that blocks and steals aren't everything. That's why I said blocks and steals along with being the joint best for most Defensive Player Of The Year awards puts him in the conversation. I can be convinced that my bias rates Wallace higher than he should be (for example, I have him top 3-5 when he should be top 8-10) but there's no way he should be referred to as "pretty good".
I don't know what correlation there is between fouls and great defenders. Chamberlain never fouled out of a game and was an excellent defender.
I didn't say Wallace was pretty good, I said his numbers were pretty good. He's no doubt one of the best (x) defenders of all time (where x > 5).
Yeah I know you didn't. Forevergiggs did which kicked off this discussionm
Lakers trail 92-86 vs Toronto. I hope i see another comback.
106-109, 8 seconds remain, Laker's possession...
shit, kobe scores. 5.5 remain, Portland's ball. Tiegame, fecking hell, im more nervous now.
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