National team all time XIs

[antohan]

Scifo is usually rated quite highly, but only his dribbling was better and he had more flair moments in him than Nilis in my opinion. But that's just the point, Scifo was a marvellous individual player, whereas Nilis was the type of player who could make a team better.

That's a fair assessment. It's just odd to see the flair players left out, but it's a valid point.

 

[marjen]

I see that no-one has called me up on my unbelievably shite Norway all time XI.

This pleases me.

 

[antohan]

My USA XI and inevitable world champions.

Note: I'm not including a single player from before the late 80s because they were mostly crap or borrowed "citizens" from other nations before the National Team had a true organization.

-----------------Friedel-----------------
Cherundolo-Balboa-Bocanegra-Caligiuri
-----Reyna----Bradley----O'Brien------
---Dempsey--------------Donovan---
---------------McBride---------------

Subs: Howard, Lalas, Pope, Jones, Ramos, Stewart, Wynalda

You should play Tab Ramos .

Gives you a bit of perspective on what a small place Uruguay is that I've played poker with Forlán, was at Montero's wedding and various parties at his, and when looking for flats to buy upon my return I almost bought one off Tab's folks!

 

[MrMarcello]

He was a quality player no doubt. If not for Leonardo's assault in 1994, I believe Ramos would have blossomed in both Spain and for the USA. He was the creative spine for the US in the early 90s.

Could probably swap Ramos for O'Brien and add a creative spark in midfield, or even move O'Brien to LB for Caligiuri. O'Brien is arguably the best passer/possessor the US ever produced (technically Ajax produced him).

 

[Brwned]

Poland

Tomaszewski
Pizczeck Smuda Gorgoń Żewłakow
Kasperczak (?) Deyna
Blaszczykowski Boniek Lato
Lubański

(Szymanowski at left back maybe?)

Subs: Młynarczyk, Wójcicki, Szymanowski, Krzynówek, Gadocha, Lewandowski & Smolarek​

 

[Skorenzy]

That's a fair assessment. It's just odd to see the flair players left out, but it's a valid point.

The only other option would be to swap him with Wilmots, on a footballing level it's a no-contest Scifo > Wilmots, but Wilmots would be my captain for his leadership skills, his mental toughness and work rate. Maybe you can appreciate how highly I rate him when I say that for me Wilmots' performance at the 2002 WC was how I picture (what I've read about) Obdulio Varela's influence in Uruguay winning the 1950 WC. If not for an inept Jamaican referee we could have conceivably beaten Brazil, what with Wilmots playing the game of his life and having a goal wrongly disallowed against the would-be champions. Alas...

 

[TheHorse'sMouth]

No Vierchowod in an Italian backline?

 

[Theon]

No Vierchowod in an Italian backline?

Who would you take out for him? Gentile isn't even getting in, it's that tough. Nesta is the standout defender of the last decade at least and he isn't in there.

 

[Skorenzy]

You are at it again!

Tricky because you've got a lot of players who excelled in the pre-TV age.

Casillas
Segarra Hierro Puyol Camacho
Xavi Pirri
Suarez Raul Gento
Villa

Subs: Zamora, Gordillo, Nadal, Guardiola, Iniesta, Butragueno
Casillas in but Zamora may have been better. Not all that sure about Segarra, but there's a distinct lack of top quality at right-back. I'd like to find room for Iniesta, but he's a similar player to Suarez and probably hasn't quite done enough to squeeze in yet - but he's likely to get there by the end of his career.

Good effort. I was looking for my man Luis Enrique then went ouch-ouch-ouch-ouch as I went through the different places he could play. Great side that, but I would have Butragueño ahead of Villa myself.

Needs more Zarra and/or Lángara.

 

[Arruda]

So antohan, how good was Forlan? Tight agressive, or the typical loose passive fish?

 

[antohan]

The only other option would be to swap him with Wilmots, on a footballing level it's a no-contest Scifo > Wilmots, but Wilmots would be my captain for his leadership skills, his mental toughness and work rate. Maybe you can appreciate how highly I rate him when I say that for me Wilmots' performance at the 2002 WC was how I picture (what I've read about) Obdulio Varela's influence in Uruguay winning the 1950 WC. If not for an inept Jamaican referee we could have conceivably beaten Brazil, what with Wilmots playing the game of his life and having a goal wrongly disallowed against the would-be champions. Alas...

Again, a valid reason. I remember that game, I was working in Brazil at the time. To say they were bricking it is an understatement.

I've told the story before of this chap who used to call the 911 services (which I managed) before each game saying he was going to commit suicide as he had a bad feeling about Brazil's game. We always told him "just wait until the game is over and make up your mind then". The first time he called was before that game and during halftime I was actually quite worried about him!

 

[antohan]

So antohan, how good was Forlan? Tight agressive, or the typical loose passive fish?

Eh? Are you asking about his dad as a defender? What is a loose passive fish? (you mean peixe as in cold-blooded/calm?)

 

[Arruda]

Eh? Are you asking about his dad as a defender? What is a loose passive fish? (you mean peixe as in cold-blooded/calm?)

I was joking, those are poker related terms

A tight player plays few but good hands.
A loose player plays many hands, good and bad.
An aggressive player tends to bet/raise more often.
A passive player check/calls more often.

Usually good players tend to be tight-aggressive whilst bad players (fish) are loose-passive.

 

[Mad Winger]

I've only been following Japanese football for a couple of years, but it seems like the current squad is stronger than ever, so it's no wonder that several of the current players should be in the starting lineup.

So, in my highly unprofessional opinion, this is the best Japanese side ever:

------------ Kawashima ------------
Komano - Tulio - Yoshida - Nagatomo
---------- Nakata - Endo -----------
--- Nakamura - Honda - Kagawa -----
-------------- Okazaki --------------

This is a pretty awesome team! Switch Okazaki with a class striker like RvP or Ibrahimovic, and we're looking at a top team capable of battling it out with the best national sides of today.

 

[Theon]

Anyone else noticing a lack of world class wingers compared to other positions?

 

[Scots Crusader]

Scotland:

1. Jim Leighton
2. Danny McGrain
3. Sandy Jardine
4. Jim Baxter
5. Alan Hansen
6. Martin Buchan
7. Paul McStay
8. Graeme Souness
9. Denis Law
10. Kenny Dalglish
11. Jimmy Johnstone

Subs: take your pick...lots of good midfielders Gemmill, Masson, Bremner and defenders...

I would drop Hansen for Miller or McLeish and McStay for any of the midfielders you mentioned there adding Strachan or McKay to the list as well, cannot really argue with the rest to be honest.

 

[MrMarcello]

What would a Mexican XI look like?

I'm not familiar with their history but surely it would contain Campos and Sanchez.

 

[Name Changed]

Don't let him being a goon and then Leeds manager cloud your judgement. O'Leary was some player. It's a similar case to whether you prefer Rio or Vidic though. If you need a Vidic fair enough.

I'm not. I'd just prefer Moran, especially partnered with McGrath.

 

[Gio]

Let's give this a whirl... Belgium:

Any views on the Preud'homme / Pfaff debate? Both right up amongst the top keepers in the world at their peak. I thought Preud'homme was fantastic but seen a little less of Pfaff.

 

[Burrow]

Norway:

----------------Thorstvedt----------------------
---Berg------Svenssen---Bratseth-------Riise----
--Lund-------Mykland----Harald Berg----Kniksen--
-------------Solskjær------Flo------------------

feck me I'm sure that's quite a shite effort but anyway.

No Hoftun, Skammelsrud, Mini, Carew, Brattbakk, Rekdal, Bohinen, Lundekvam, Heggem etc...? Find a way to fit them all into an XI.

 

[antohan]

What would a Mexican XI look like?

I'm not familiar with their history but surely it would contain Campos and Sanchez.

Maybe MUFC07 can help out with that. The goalie sure isn't Campos though: Antonio Carbajal played in nets for them in FIVE World Cups.

 

[Decotron]

In terms of any Spanish team surely Nadal was better than Puyol?

 

[antohan]

Any views on the Preud'homme / Pfaff debate? Both right up amongst the top keepers in the world at their peak. I thought Preud'homme was fantastic but seen a little less of Pfaff.

Pfaff for me, he was consistently immense for a decade, while I always had Preud'homme more as a flash in the pan (well, about five years).

He was Pfaff's understudy and only got the starting spot once he left the NT but that may be down to age difference first, then simply experience.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and it is all the result of getting to see a lot more of Pfaff due to him being at Bayern, while Preud'homme spent his peak stuck in the Belgian league.

In the World Cups you could argue he shone brighter than Pfaff, but I would argue that was down to Belgium already being in decline (thus keeper gets tested more and ends up being the star man, like so many keepers do when we face mid-table sides).

 

[Arruda]

Preud'homme was wonderful for Benfica, even at the later stages of his career. Along with Vitor Baía probably the best GK I saw playing in Portugal (not counting Schmeichel at Sporting as I think he was far from his best by then).

Granted I don't know that Pfaff fellow from nowhere or how he'd compare.

 

[antohan]

I was joking, those are poker related terms

A tight player plays few but good hands.
A loose player plays many hands, good and bad.
An aggressive player tends to bet/raise more often.
A passive player check/calls more often.

Usually good players tend to be tight-aggressive whilst bad players (fish) are loose-passive.

Oh, completely missed the context. I just call them aggressive, conservative and bluffer. Like this better though. I'm tight passive with occasional aggressive outbursts which land me in hot water

I would say he was loose-agressive, although it fits that description because he was completely erratic. He is a tight git so instinctively he would be passive, but the sort of money being dealt with was probably less than he earns during each hand so occasionally he would go all mental, mostly bluffing. Difficult to read, great to take his money though in one of my aggressive outbursts where I called his bluff

He was my brother-in-law's classmate and they get together on Wednesdays to play poker, which I've joined a few times and Diego joins whenever he comes over. I went to school with his sister... That's what I mean, small place this yet two World Cups and the most Copa America's, a lot of it may be way back in time but nevertheless, beat that!

 

[antohan]

Preud'homme was wonderful for Benfica, even at the later stages of his career. Along with Vitor Baía probably the best GK I saw playing in Portugal (not counting Schmeichel at Sporting as I think he was far from his best by then).

Granted I don't know that Pfaff fellow from nowhere or how he'd compare.

He was a great keeper, definitely better than Vitor Baia, and his eyes gave him a special something, a certain air of authority... but he didn't have the sort of commanding presence that Pfaff had, similar to Kahn, if you know what I mean.

I prefer that sort of keeper. Love VDS to bits and liked his relaxed demeanour, but he could never ever match Schmeichel for me even in his best games. That no-nonsense "feck-off well away from my goal" arrogance.

 

[Gio]

In terms of any Spanish team surely Nadal was better than Puyol?

Probably aye, Nadal was blessed with a bit more natural ability than Puyol.

 

[Skorenzy]

Any views on the Preud'homme / Pfaff debate? Both right up amongst the top keepers in the world at their peak. I thought Preud'homme was fantastic but seen a little less of Pfaff.

There's not that much between them to be honest, but for me Preud'homme had a quality that I value very highly in goalkeepers: being able to make "impossible" saves, whereas Pfaff's strength lay in his consistency.

Pfaff for me, he was consistently immense for a decade, while I always had Preud'homme more as a flash in the pan (well, about five years).

He was Pfaff's understudy and only got the starting spot once he left the NT but that may be down to age difference first, then simply experience.

Maybe I'm completely wrong and it is all the result of getting to see a lot more of Pfaff due to him being at Bayern, while Preud'homme spent his peak stuck in the Belgian league.

In the World Cups you could argue he shone brighter than Pfaff, but I would argue that was down to Belgium already being in decline (thus keeper gets tested more and ends up being the star man, like so many keepers do when we face mid-table sides).

For the NT in general Preud'homme outperformed Pfaff, no question. He had more clean sheets in less games with a weaker squad than the one Pfaff played on. In his entire NT career he conceded less goals than he played games (56 GA in 58 caps). Pfaff is the keeper with the 2nd most goals conceded in a single World Cup (15 in 7 games in 1986).

It's mainly his time at Bayern that gives Pfaff the edge in most people's opinion, but even though he was outstanding in two seasons (rated world class by Kicker in 1983 and 1987) the influence of Preud'homme on a far weaker club was more impressive for me. I guess you could call this the "Maradona criterium".

Pfaff won impressively but what was expected at a perennial powerhouse such as Bayern, 3 league titles and 2 cups, and made it to a European final (which they lost against Porto).

I'm not going to touch on Preud'homme his Standard Liège days because there's some controversy there. But at KV Mechelen is where he cemented his status. He won with Mechelen their 4th and last league title in 1989 (the other three were won in the 1940s) and the only cup in their history (in 1987), the following season they won the Cup Winners' Cup against Ajax and the European Super Cup against a PSV with Romário... This with a club that had been promoted from 2nd Division as recent as 1983, then was a distinctly mid-table side until Preud'homme joins them and for the 8 seasons he spends there they finished outside the top 3 only twice (4th in 1991/92 and 8th in his final season 1993/94). After him, they're back to mid-table for good.

I can tell you it's a big, big deal to have done so well in Europe: Mechelen are the only Belgian club apart from traditional powerhouse Anderlecht to ever win a European trophy. And after their 1988 CWC win Mechelen reached the semi-final in the same competition the next season (defeated by Sampdoria) and the quarter-final of the European Cup in the season following that, where they only went out after extra time against Sacchi's Milan who would go on to win that year.

Preud'homme won in those years twice the Best player award of the Belgian league (1987 and 1989). And of course his 1994 WC performance is better than anything Pfaff ever produced.

 

[Snow]

In terms of any Spanish team surely Nadal was better than Puyol?

Really? I don't remember him being the main man in defense.

I think the captain of the greatest team I've seen play and a 99 cap man for one of the best national teams. A leader in both teams. Feels sometimes like people would rather have older players because of some romantic idea or notion or something. I don't remember Nadal being the definite starter like Puyol always has been. He was often a utility player.

 

[TheHorse'sMouth]

No Pele in the starting line up is interesting, could replace Zico, Ronaldo or Rivelinho easily for me.

Yep, I think it just comes down to a matter of how you want a Brasilian team to function, and perhaps in hindsight the issue of balance comes into it as well. Pele picks himself in any Brasilian all-star side, its just a matter of how you want the men behind him to line up. Pele up top, Jairzinho wide right, Garrincha who is equally as good on either wing on the left. If we're sticking to a 4-3-3, then perhaps something like a Cerezo-Gérson-Clodoaldo midfield..when you're spoilt for choice it really does throw up a lot of questions. Pele behind a Ronaldo or a Vavá is also another option that might prove to be interesting.

 

[Pink Moon]

Goram

McGrain McNeill Hansen Gemmell

Johnstone Souness McStay Baxter

Dalglish McGrory​

I would have put Law instead of McGrory but reading Gio's post earlier in the thread about James & Morton made me realise that the top goalscorer in British football history deserves to be in here. He may have been before our time but the 550 goals say it all.

Went for Tommy Gemmell over Sandy Jardine at left back simply for what he done at club level more than anything else. Swashbuckling full back who scored in two European Cup finals. A great achievement for any player never mind a full back.

Centre back was tough. I wanted to put Greig in there with McNeill simply due to what they've done at the country's two biggest clubs throughout their careers but Hansen wins it and given the choice of McNeill or Greig I choose McNeill. Could just as easily have been Miller, McLeish or even Gough who I felt was a fantastic defender at Rangers.

Leighton, Law, Murdoch, Lennox, George Connelly, Cooper, McCoist, Jordan and a few others all deserve mention.

 

[antohan]

There's not that much between them to be honest, but for me Preud'homme had a quality that I value very highly in goalkeepers: being able to make "impossible" saves, whereas Pfaff's strength lay in his consistency.

True. Don't get me wrong, I suffered that in Italia '90. The scoreline (1-3) suggests otherwise, but it was an even game, with us playing 10 for an entire half. The difference was putting chances away. I remember one long-range screamer to the top left corner which he didn't just catch but actually held on to the fecking ball. A very safe pair of hands, no question, and you may well have a point about them being safer, which ultimately is what it is all about and not my "commanding presence" nonsense

Pfaff is the keeper with the 2nd most goals conceded in a single World Cup (15 in 7 games in 1986).

That's not a fair stat, objective hard numbers yes, but context is required:

1) Belgium -surprisingly as they were usually a very well organised side- defended attrociously throughout the tournament,

2) It was a free-scoring World Cup, even the final featured more than half as many goals as all the finals since put together (3-2 vs. 8-1 on aggregate over the next 6 WCs). The 8-1 indicates a trend: score and shut up shop, while in '86 everyone just kept going, which made brilliant viewing, be it 6-1, 5-1 or 4-3 .

3) He came "3rd of the rest" for the Golden Ball. Maradona ran away with it obviously, but overall Pfaff ended up just behind Elkjaer and Schumacher. At the time I remember thinking the only reason Pfaff didn't get in the top 3 was Schumacher's penalty saves against Mexico (I couldn't stand Schumacher so I was pretty miffed). That means he was voted ahead of everyone else in the Belgian side, let alone every Brazilian, French, Spanish, even ahead of a top scoring Lineker!

It's mainly his time at Bayern that gives Pfaff the edge in most people's opinion, but even though he was outstanding in two seasons (rated world class by Kicker in 1983 and 1987) the influence of Preud'homme on a far weaker club was more impressive for me. I guess you could call this the "Maradona criterium".

...the following season they won the Cup Winners' Cup against Ajax and the European Super Cup against a PSV with Romário... This with a club that had been promoted from 2nd Division as recent as 1983, then was a distinctly mid-table side until Preud'homme joins them and for the 8 seasons he spends there they finished outside the top 3 only twice (4th in 1991/92 and 8th in his final season 1993/94). After him, they're back to mid-table for good.

I can tell you it's a big, big deal to have done so well in Europe: Mechelen are the only Belgian club apart from traditional powerhouse Anderlecht to ever win a European trophy. And after their 1988 CWC win Mechelen reached the semi-final in the same competition the next season (defeated by Sampdoria) and the quarter-final of the European Cup in the season following that, where they only went out after extra time against Sacchi's Milan who would go on to win that year.

I'm a big supporter of what you call "the Maradona criterium" and players that fit it. I remembered the cup wins but didn't remember them as any more than the occasional random triumph cup competitions produce. Challenging consistently I didn't remember, and you make a good case for him being the cornerstone for it.

 

[Balu]

I'm in the mood for a new German one now that Lahm and Schweinsteiger finally crowned their already incredible careers, so here you go.

Müller and Rummenigge upfront is a pretty easy decision. Maier still in goal, Kohler and Beckenbauer at centerback. Lahm is a pretty easy decision now, best rightback we ever had (sry Berti), captained Bayern to a treble and Germany to a World Cup and made it into the all star team in 5 (five!!!) consecutive international tournaments, it's really a no-brainer by now. Leftback is still a huge dilemma. Breitner or Brehme and Breitner in midfield. I'd argue that Brehme was actually the better of the two anyway, so yeah Brehme it is. So we have:

Müller - Rummenigge
??? Midfield ???
??? Midfield ???
Brehme Kohler Beckenbauer Lahm
Maier
​

Four more to go. Breitner and Matthäus need to be in it and I love Matthäus in the more attacking box to box role, the one he excelled in at Inter and for Germany in '90, the one that won him the Ballon d'Or, so it allows me to include Schweinsteiger as a 3rd CM. It's probably a bit of an overkill with Beckenbauer already in defense but with no worthy left winger to go 433, Schweinsteiger's completeness comes in handy and will make it work and both fullbacks won't need to worry about a lack of cover when they run forward. I always prefered Netzer over Overath, so that decision is easy. Leaving Fritz Walter out of the team seems wrong, but Netzer is simply the better fit here (and was individually probably the better player as well) and with all the hard workers in the team, we really can use his magic.

2 or 3 years ago, I probably would have said that it's impossible for Schweinsteiger to ever reach that level to be included here, but the way he reacted after the CL final loss in 2012 and the way he improved further as a player and as a leader is just too special to ignore. A man of the match performance in a tough World Cup final tips the scale in his favour.

 

[Balu]

Any other player who should be considered in his country now after the World Cup? Robben for example? Does he deserve a starting spot for the Netherlands now? Thiago Silva probably missed the chance to make the cut for Brazil. Anyone from that Argentina team besides Messi? Mascherano maybe?

 

[Invictus]

Fritz Walter und Uwe Seeler ?

 

[Fortitude]

I'm in the mood for a new German one now that Lahm and Schweinsteiger finally crowned their already incredible careers, so here you go.

Müller and Rummenigge upfront is a pretty easy decision. Maier still in goal, Kohler and Beckenbauer at centerback. Lahm is a pretty easy decision now, best rightback we ever had (sry Berti), captained Bayern to a treble and Germany to a World Cup and made it into the all star team in 5 (five!!!) consecutive international tournaments, it's really a no-brainer by now. Leftback is still a huge dilemma. Breitner or Brehme and Breitner in midfield. I'd argue that Brehme was actually the better of the two anyway, so yeah Brehme it is. So we have:

Müller - Rummenigge
??? Midfield ???
??? Midfield ???
Brehme Kohler Beckenbauer Lahm
Maier
​

Four more to go. Breitner and Matthäus need to be in it and I love Matthäus in the more attacking box to box role, the one he excelled in at Inter and for Germany in '90, the one that won him the Ballon d'Or, so it allows me to include Schweinsteiger as a 3rd CM. It's probably a bit of an overkill with Beckenbauer already in defense but with no worthy left winger to go 433, Schweinsteiger's completeness comes in handy and will make it work and both fullbacks won't need to worry about a lack of cover when they run forward. I always prefered Netzer over Overath, so that decision is easy. Leaving Fritz Walter out of the team seems wrong, but Netzer is simply the better fit here (and was individually probably the better player as well) and with all the hard workers in the team, we really can use his magic.

2 or 3 years ago, I probably would have said that it's impossible for Schweinsteiger to ever reach that level to be included here, but the way he reacted after the CL final loss in 2012 and the way he improved further as a player and as a leader is just too special to ignore. A man of the match performance in a tough World Cup final tips the scale in his favour.

Don't agree with your team but was going to ask about Schweinsteiger and this exact question in his thread, funnily enough.

I'd have him in the 23 now, dropping Szymaniak for him.

 

[Fortitude]

The biggest issue with these sides and the players who were sweepers, or sweeper-like in 3 or 5 man defences, or who had a direct stopper behind them in a pseudo 4-man defence is that they don't generally have attributes that work in or against modern systems. It leaves a whole group of superb players in limbo, for me. Moore, Baresi, Passarella maybe even Sammer, would be better suited to being DM's who can drop back into defence when needed rather than defenders who go into midfield when needed.

 

[Balu]

Don't agree with your team but was going to ask about Schweinsteiger and this exact question in his thread, funnily enough.

I'd have him in the 23 now, dropping Szymaniak for him.

Well, it would be ridiculous to leave Schweinsteiger out of a 23 man squad after everything he has done in the past 5 years. Anyone doing that really romanticises the past in my opinion (and I'm often doing that myself).

Fritz Walter und Uwe Seeler ?

As much as I love Seeler, there's no place for him in there anymore . Rummenigge was clearly the better player. In a German World Cup XI, I'd have him in there easily though.

Fritz Walter probably should be in there. The decision for Netzer really is more a favourite player over deserving player thing like I explained above.

 

[Balu]

The biggest issue with these sides and the players who were sweepers, or sweeper-like in 3 or 5 man defences, or who had a direct stopper behind them in a pseudo 4-man defence is that they don't generally have attributes that work in or against modern systems. It leaves a whole group of superb players in limbo, for me. Moore, Baresi, Passarella maybe even Sammer, would be better suited to being DM's who can drop back into defence when needed rather than defenders who go into midfield when needed.

But that's the beauty of Beckenbauer here. He pretty much always played in a back four. I agree on Sammer though, I rate him the better player as Schweinsteiger, but he really would be overkill if we use him in his best position and Schweinsteiger offers more what a team with Beckenbauer and Matthäus needs.

 

[Fortitude]

Holland: 4-3-3

Cruyff Van Basten Robben
Neeskens Gullit
Van Hanegem
Krol Van der Hart Rijkaard Suurbier

Van der Sar​