Drop the only midfielder that is renowned for his defensive work and bring in a striker, a striker that you would have a difficult time convincing people he is world class? Not for me.
National team all time XIs
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Drop the only midfielder that is renowned for his defensive work and bring in a striker, a striker that you would have a difficult time convincing people he is world class? Not for me.
It's an all time XI, surely it doesn't have to have a balanced formation. It's not an actual team.
And you can drop that midfielder if he has only 19 caps and the person you're bringing in is the all time leading scorer.
And you can drop that midfielder if he has only 19 caps and the person you're bringing in is the all time leading scorer.
Well it does have to be balanced, otherwise it's just a best 11 Portugese players of all time. We could stick Ronaldinho in goal for Brazil in order to fit him in.
Even in that case, I would rather Coluna or Sousa ahead of Pauleta.
I have a lot of time for him (so much so that some on here argued I lost the 70s draft for sticking with him all the way to the final). Hugely underrated as a simple brute when he actually was up there in the Top 5 of the last couple of decades IMO.
Problem is I can't for the life of me think of any Uruguayan World Class fullbacks so went with two legendary wing-backs. Nasazzi and Santamaría are ideal for that.
He also recently divorced a friend of mine so he is in the bad books for some time
Don't be silly. My suggestion would just turn it into a 4-4-2. Which is the norm for picking a best eleven. Though nowadays, these lists seem to be going down the line of always including a holding midfielder, which is not right IMO.
I love Pauleta, if you read about him and notice my location, he's the only successful professional footballer from my island. I've met him personally, and he's a great guy. My little brother plays in his football school here. If anything, I'd probably have a bias towards putting him in.
That said, I didn't base my selection on the most successful footballers for the Portuguese national team, I just made a first XI based on the best Portuguese footballers according to my perception. If I had chosen a two strikers formation I'd still have Fernando Gomes or José Torres ahead of Pauleta any day.
Pauleta is the best scorer but if you look at his record he had a lot of goals scored in friendly matches or trashings of weak teams in qualifiers. Nowadays there are a lot more games so he's at an extreme advantage compared with footballers from the past. He debuted for the National Team with 26 years old and still managed to have 24 more caps than Eusebio. There are a lot more international games these days.
With regards to André, it's probably biased, I don't think a supporter from other club would include him there. But then again I can't imagine a better Portuguese defensive midfielder than him. I don't know why he had so few caps, perhaps it was a position with wide rotation, or there was some bias against Porto players at that time. I did want to include a DM in my team and the only ones I know who were successful enough to warrant a place were André and Paulo Sousa. My admiration for the former (he is regarded at Porto as Roy Keane is at United), and the chance to make his name known to some other people made me include him.
I have a lot of time for him (so much so that some on here argued I lost the 70s draft for sticking with him all the way to the final). Hugely underrated as a simple brute when he actually was up there in the Top 5 of the last couple of decades IMO.
Problem is I can't for the life of me think of any Uruguayan World Class fullbacks so went with two legendary wing-backs. Nasazzi and Santamaría are ideal for that.
He also recently divorced a friend of mine so he is in the bad books for some time
What about El Negro Cubilla? I never saw him personally but I know old timers here rate him very highly. It might be heresy, but I think I would stick Forlan in there over Enzo as well. Had a far better career on the big stage in Europe and the World Cups.
I see your point on the inclusion of a decidedly low-key holding midfielder being a bit shit. But then, Figo-Rui Costa-Deco-Ronaldo lacks defensive nous and Pauleta is not going to help much with that.
I would much rather field Sousa, a class player offering much more than "holding", who alongside Deco and Rui Costa can keep things tidy enough.
Fair enough. As I said, you're Portugese you know more than I do but at least you're admitting to the obvious Andre bias. Though I still don't agree with 4-5-1. And you've even said yourself the options are limited, so just scrap the 4-5-1 and go 4-4-2.
Who cares. It's 4-4-2, it fits, feck it, so what, pick that midfield. Why are you keeping things tidy? It's not a team to actually play. I think we're heading towards a naughty place in regards to 'holding midfielders' being in dream teams and all time XI's. Unless they're absolutely exceptional, they shouldn't be included, especially ahead of more deserving players.I don't think 4-4-2 was ever the norm here in Portugal, not in my football watching times. I chose the formation my national team has used more often in recent times and the one that I think is more balanced. It's perfectly fair that other people use other criteria and make an effort to include as much talent as they can, but since I think defensive players are often overlooked in these things, I opted to do it differently. I also added a small edit to my above post in the last paragraph, to better explain why I chose André.
It's a shame to not have included Paulo Futre for example, so if I did a 4-4-2 I'd probably have put him in the left wing and switched Ronaldo to second striker.
It's a shame to not have included Paulo Futre for example, so if I did a 4-4-2 I'd probably have put him in the left wing and switched Ronaldo to second striker.
Cubilla would have been an option if I played three up front, the issue was I needed to find another wide forward of similar standard (which I couldn't, bar Ghiggia who played on the same side) and overall it meant dropping Rocha AND one of Francescoli, Schiaffino or Scarone. Didn't make any sense overall.
I did try to fit Forlán somehow, but there's nothing he can do that the others don't offer in abundance. The best alternative I had was dropping Rocha (who had his cannon shots) and dropping Francescoli into the hole but I can't see a Forlán-Morena partnership working at all, Diego is too wasteful. I much preferred Schiaffino and Scarone linking up with Francescoli to carve openings and Morena as the fox-in-the-box taking advantage of the space created to bang them all in.
Again, very good point, you just smack these back you kunt. I still don't agree with the 4-5-1 but that's the strongest case for using it. I just feel it restricts the inclusion of more talented players.
How far down the pecking order would Nuno Gomes be? Also I've been told the way we (English) pronounce Gomes is wrong. It's more Nuno Gorms? that correct?
I agree, but Paulo Sousa is a more deserving player than Pauleta and I reckon both Figo and Ronaldo would rather have Sousa pinging balls to them than Pauleta as a striking option.
Gohmsh (with a very soft/short almost e sounding eh after the m) or something like that.
Leroy, I see your point but it falls flat on its arse when your much vaunted talented inclusion is Pauleta. Sousa was a much more talented footballer. In fact, it makes sense for Portugal to play one upfront as they don't really have that many talented strikers.
Futre was a good shout though.
I have no idea how far down he would be, but no Portuguese would ever consider him for a selection of these. He was a reasonably competent striker at best, that punched well above his weight during Euro 2000 and gained notoriety thanks to that. He's no better than Jermain Defoe.
How to pronunciate it? I don't know, I'm not very good with phonetics. In Portuguese it doesn't sound like Gorms, the "o" has a much lower tone, like in "Rooney" but shorter in length. Most foreigners seem to pronounce it like they do with Bafetimbi Gomis and I think that's a reasonable enough approximation.
With that I did just mean in general, of course I'm aware of Pauleta's limitations. I just looked at it as 'top scorer' should be in there. And that's all.
But with other teams, these XI's etc you'll find people leaving out more talented attacking individuals in favour of "holding midfielders".
Really? Would have thought they would pronounce it the same as Mario Gomez.
Anyhow, once you think of Cristiano as a support striker, why not this chap Chalana Duffy kept raving about in the 50s draft? Was he good enough to fit in there?
Yes, you're right about the pronunciation, that would be closer to Gomes than Gomis, I just didn't think of a better example.
I never saw Chalana, I'm only 31. He's certainly very well rated among older supporters, but being from Benfica I don't know him very well and I think we have no shortage of wingers that are probably above his level.
Like him, there will be lots of examples of players I didn't even consider, my knowledge of pre-90's football is very sparse.
Krol has to be in the Dutch team, Cruyff had him in his world XI recently.
Yeah not bad. I'd sub out Leighton and McStay who don't quite belong in this company, and bring in Goram and Alan Morton or Alex James. Not that I've seen anything all that meaningful of Morton or James on video, but by all accounts they'd have been vying for Ballon D'Ors in the 1920/30s had such an award existed. Something like:
I'd suggest it's a bit light on France's great 80's team - Cantona would miss out to ensure either or both of Giresse or Tigana saw game time (or Fontaine). At left-back you'd be choosing between Manuel Bossis and Bixente Lizarazu - Amoros was primarily a right-back as far as I know(?). Perhaps something like:
Subs from Amoros, Tresor, Giresse, Papin and Fontaine. (Edit - I see this is almost exactly the same as Theon's team).
Some team. Leonel Alvarez more central perhaps and maybe Cordoba for Yepes?
Yeah not bad. I'd sub out Leighton and McStay who don't quite belong in this company, and bring in Goram and Alan Morton or Alex James. Not that I've seen anything all that meaningful of Morton or James on video, but by all accounts they'd have been vying for Ballon D'Ors in the 1920/30s had such an award existed. Something like:
Goram
McGrain Hansen Greig Jardine
Johnstone Souness Baxter Morton
Dalglish Law
McGrain Hansen Greig Jardine
Johnstone Souness Baxter Morton
Dalglish Law
I'd suggest it's a bit light on France's great 80's team - Cantona would miss out to ensure either or both of Giresse or Tigana saw game time (or Fontaine). At left-back you'd be choosing between Manuel Bossis and Bixente Lizarazu - Amoros was primarily a right-back as far as I know(?). Perhaps something like:
Bats
Thuram Desailly Blanc Bossis
Tigana Vieira
Kopa Platini Zidane
Henry
Thuram Desailly Blanc Bossis
Tigana Vieira
Kopa Platini Zidane
Henry
Subs from Amoros, Tresor, Giresse, Papin and Fontaine. (Edit - I see this is almost exactly the same as Theon's team).
Some team. Leonel Alvarez more central perhaps and maybe Cordoba for Yepes?
Rufai
Chukwu Keshi West
Oliseh
Finidi Okocha Amuneke
Yekini Amokachi
Chukwu Keshi West
Oliseh
Finidi Okocha Amuneke
Yekini Amokachi
Left out Kanu, Mikel.
Dunno about Rufai, he was well dodgy at times. But who else is there really?
I'd also have Yobo in. And Kanu instead of Amuneke. And leaving out Mikel is correct, he wouldn't even make a squad of 18.
Almost the '94 WC team there. West the odd one out?
Pauleta scored around 45% of his goals in friendlies. He started 11 games in WC '02 and '06 + Euro '06 and scored in just two. 60% of his overall goals came against Azerbaijan, Andorra, Lithuania, Cyrprus, Kuwait, Latvia, Estonia, Luxembourg, Cape Verde and Liechenstein. At club level he won just one league title in his career and in that season he scored just 8 league goals. He's the ultimate top-level bottler.
José Torres played in just one international tournament and yet he scored in more games than Pauleta could manage in three. And he was sensational at club level too as he won 8 league titles and two European Cups while Pauleta played his best stuff at a PSG side that finished 15th and 16th in his last two seasons. Pauleta's just not in the same class. I'm 21.
Indeed. It would look more like this:
..........Leonel Alvarez
Ortiz - Valderrama - Rincon
If anything, I would've switched Cordoba for Andres Escobar, but considering the sentimental history, you just can't leave out Andres. It might be too early to say, but James Rodriguez would probably be a better pick for that left side than Freddy Rincon.
Imagining El Pibe Valderrama feeding Rodriguez and Falcao gives me a woody. In fact, if today's Colombian national side had a natural creative #10 like Valderrama, I would rate them equal to or better than Argentina and Brazil, lacking only the immense weight of their tradition. I honestly think they're a creative midfielder away from mounting a serious challenge for the cup in Brazil 2014.
I'd probaly change Higuita for Oscar Cordoba as well, come to think about it. Higuita was just too insane.
Dave MacKay?
He's the best I could think of. Didn't watch games prior to him, and Enyeama can't fill his boots. I think.
I didn't watch him that much in Europe, but yeah I left him out. If I was doing a 4 man defense he'd be in.
I prefer Bremner to Baxter. He and Souness would be
Scottish goalies have always been a joke. You would hope they could produce at least one good one, like NI did with Jennings.
Nice, I would probably pick Strachan over McStay but tons of good players for sure. Archibald, Jordan etc etc
I'm not going to sit here and say I knew that but since you went through all that research, if you checked Jose Torres you'll see that he scored 10 of his 14 goals in friendlies. And 3 of the goals in tournament were against Norway, Bulgaria and the Soviet.
And as far as club honours that's not a fair comparison at all. Benfica crapped all over Portugal back in those days. They won everything. Pauleta has never played in a team nearly as successful yet he got 65 in 98 for Bordeaux and 76 in 168 for PSG, not bad for sides who were predominantly very unsuccessful during his time there. There's no need for us to start throwing stats around. I just believe as his nations top scorer, regardless of who and when his goals were against, he should make the team.
And how can you even make the statement that Pauleta isnt in the same class, have you honestly ever even see Jose Torres play?
Well Alvarez was a tank and his physicality in the middle always complemented Valderrama's finesse. Tim Vickery was saying that his main concern for Colombia come 2014 was their need for defensive renewal, although I share your concerns that a wee bit more flair in midfield would make a tangible difference.
Just stick to Spanish there anto. Portuguese isn't your thing
I lived in Brazil for over three years mate, I sure know how to say Gomes.
I was surprised that Arruda said most foreigners pronounced it the same way as Gomis, when Gomez was much more likely.
Sweden
Zlatan Ibrahimovic-Gunnar Nordahl-Kurt Hamrin
Lennart "Nacka" Skoglund-Nils Liedholm-Gunnar Gren
Erik Nilsson-Patrik Andersson-Björn Nordqvist-Orvar Bergmark
Kalle Svensson
Bench:
Henrik Larsson (f)
Torbjörn Nilsson (f)
Jonas Thern (mf)
Tomas Brolin (mf)
Bo Larsson (d/mf/f)
Glenn Hysén (cb)
Ronnie Hellström (gk)
This is quite heavily based on players from our golden age in the 50's, but I can't see how you can ignore them even if I haven't watched a lot of them other than in clips.
Feels a bit weird leaving Henrik Larsson out of the starting XI, but I just can't see who he would dispose really. Not Nordahl, not Zlatan anymore. Maybe Kurt Hamrin, but he has 190 Serie A goals to his name and was one of the stars when Sweden went to the WC final.
Zlatan Ibrahimovic-Gunnar Nordahl-Kurt Hamrin
Lennart "Nacka" Skoglund-Nils Liedholm-Gunnar Gren
Erik Nilsson-Patrik Andersson-Björn Nordqvist-Orvar Bergmark
Kalle Svensson
Bench:
Henrik Larsson (f)
Torbjörn Nilsson (f)
Jonas Thern (mf)
Tomas Brolin (mf)
Bo Larsson (d/mf/f)
Glenn Hysén (cb)
Ronnie Hellström (gk)
This is quite heavily based on players from our golden age in the 50's, but I can't see how you can ignore them even if I haven't watched a lot of them other than in clips.
Feels a bit weird leaving Henrik Larsson out of the starting XI, but I just can't see who he would dispose really. Not Nordahl, not Zlatan anymore. Maybe Kurt Hamrin, but he has 190 Serie A goals to his name and was one of the stars when Sweden went to the WC final.
Yes I've seen Torres play a few times. He was a giant. Seen him score in more WC games than I've seen Pauleta score in in fact. Seen him play in European Cup finals. Pauleta played for midtable clubs because he was a midtable player like Darren Bent, Torres didn't look out of place in probably the best Portuguese club side in history and for that reason he wouldn't look out of place in a national XI. He was the archetypal target man and a fantastic goalscorer too - when Eusebio was top-scoring with 29 league goals José Torres wasn't far behind on 28.
Wales
Neville Southall
Dean Bloody Saunders
Tom Jones
Giggsy
BaleBaleBale
Rush
Shirley Bassey
Me
My Mum
Neville Southall
Dean Bloody Saunders
Tom Jones
Giggsy
BaleBaleBale
Rush
Shirley Bassey
Me
My Mum
I share both views mate. Colombia could pull it off, it's a great side, lots of fans should make it and it's one of the few that would find the weather favourable. Big question is whether they can handle the weight of expectation. When the going gets tough some teams get going and others fold. Colombia are the sort that fold if their history is anything to go by. Hopefully won't be the case.
Córdoba was immense, one of my favourite keepers in recent years.
John Charles, go get some splinters on the bench. Your mum's playing though.
Fair enough. As I said, you're Portugese you know more than I do but at least you're admitting to the obvious Andre bias. Though I still don't agree with 4-5-1. And you've even said yourself the options are limited, so just scrap the 4-5-1 and go 4-4-2.
Just makes it a little bit more interesting.
really? Even if you have (which you haven't) sat down and watched all Benfica's European Finals. Didn't they lose all of them anyway? I'll give you the 68 final but I've seen that (obviously) and he didn't stand out, other than for being very tall. I'm not even going to comment on the "WC games". I'm sure you're fecking about anyway.
But Pauleta mid table clubs? PSG are arguably the 2nd biggest club in France, Bordeaux have usually been a top 5ish team. He was at Deportivo when they won the league. PSG were in a state during his later years there but that doesnt make them a mid-table club.