Murtough and Ten Hag on Utd squad

Majima said:
Klopp cleared Liverpool out completely within 2 years. His first summer he had 13 out with 6 arrivals. The next he had a further 5 out with 4 in. So 18 out 10 in, job done. That's how you do it properly. None of this making do with 'existing potential' nonsense.
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Liverpool's 2017/18 squad still had Milner, Henderson, Origi, Firmino, Coutinho, Lovren, Clyne, Emre Can, Lallana, Mignolet. That's 10 players before Klopp got there and they finished 4th in the PL and made the CL Final.

So you're post is incorrect. EtH will gradually phase out the players, just like Klopp did.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Maybe four or five were seniors. The rest were youths/fringe players who never got a game.
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Minutes from season, Klopp's first summer outgoings:

Sakho: 2245
Benteke: 2175
Ibe: 2075
Allen: 1754
Skrtel: 2245
Toure: 1800

Smith: 800
Flanagan: 700
Ilori: 257

I thought Markovic, and Luis Alberto played too, but that must have been a season or two prior.

Still, 6 solid first teamers with couple getting some rotation. 14,051 mins between them.

For instance us this season:

Shaw: 2211
Wan-Bissaka: 2213
Telles: 2025
Rashford: 1657
Pogba: 1782
Matic: 1666
 
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VanDeBank said:
Do people expect ETH to say: "Maybe I can get something out of Shaw, Rashford and Fred, but Telles, McTominay and Elanga are championship players"?

Of course he has some players he thinks can improve and others he doesn't rate, which he'll have a chance to verify in pre season if he hasn't already written them off completely.

If someone believes all our players are shit and there's not a few underperforming ones that can improve, they are delusional.
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I completely agree with the last paragraph. However, I’m not at all confident that the players who will improve are the ones that people are hoping for.
 
El Jefe said:
Liverpool's 2017/18 squad still had Milner, Henderson, Origi, Firmino, Coutinho, Lovren, Clyne, Emre Can, Lallana, Mignolet. That's 10 players before Klopp got there and they finished 4th in the PL and made the CL Final.

So you're post is incorrect. EtH will gradually phase out the players, just like Klopp did.
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Okay a few were wrong.

He still got rid of 6 solid first teamers with 2 youth bench players his first summer. They had 13,794 mins between them. That's not gradually phasing out at all.
 
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You can't buy 8 new players in a season. Simple fact is, getting a tune out of the players we have now is a larger part of ETH's role in the first 2 seasons than just buying replacements.
 
I think as others have stated, coming in the door and saying "I've got so many of these guys to bin" is not the way to go. I doubt poster boy and Caf benchmark Klopp did that at Liverpool. He just got on with it once he was in situ.
 
LARulz said:
Realistically we can't get 15 new players and ship 20 out. He will ultimately have to work with the majority we already have and some of them have/had potential and some are just average at best - either way he has to keep them on side till he can ship some of these guys on. Imagine a new boss in any line of work coming in and saying "You're all shit and see no hope for any of you"
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Exactly. Plus, if we go back over the transfer threads for pretty much every player we've signed over the past five years, the majority on here have been overwhelmingingly in favour. The Caf was over the moon with them when they signed. Surely at least some of those players that were once good enough for us to spend tens of millions on are still good enough to form a semi-competent transitional squad for the next couple of seasons.

Except Maguire, like. Obviously.
 
This squad should have walked top 4 this season and would have with better coaching and with everyones heads in the right place.

There's no reason with a few additions and a few outgoings, with everyone pulling in the same direction and a progressive coach who can get the best out of everyone that we can't get top 4 next season and then progress from there.

Klopp has taken years to build his squad, adding the right pieces over time. It will need to be a similar story with us.
 
Loon said:
I think have others have stated, coming in the door and saying "I've got so many of these guys to bin" is not the way to go. I doubt poster boy and Caf benchmark Klopp did that at Liverpool. He just got on with it once he was in situ.
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This is hopefully true. I just think the issue is, we've all been here many times before. Usually when we hear soundbites like this from the club, they're not bluffing and actually don't want to spend too much money. I suspect not going for Conte was the first clue that we might not be serious about a rebuild and instead went for a coach that will hopefully improve what we have and is used to shoestring budgets. ETH is already talking about changing his style of football to suit what we have. I don't believe they intend to gut this squad and think they'll protect a lot of players. Rashford will have a fat new contract before long, just you watch.
 
largelyworried said:
You can't buy 8 new players in a season. Simple fact is, getting a tune out of the players we have now is a larger part of ETH's role in the first 2 seasons than just buying replacements.
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The Celtic team that won the league this season had 9 starters in January who were not at the club last season. It can be done if the will is there, and Celtic spent a pittance while doing it, winning the league ahead of a Rangers side that made the Europa league final.
 
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The man who coached this team most recently has come out and said the squad needs upto 10 new players and these clowns are trying to blow smoke up peoples asses into thinking that Ten Hag can somehow polish turds into rubies and gems.

It’ll go ass up in 10 months, we ruin a managers confidence and hire the next sacrificial lamb off the pipeline.
 
Its only logical thing to do. Do you expect the club to bin 9-10 starting players in just one transfer window and after losing another 10 back up/fringe players?
There's not enough time and not enough money to do that. The critical point is to see how the club treat the outgoing players for the next 2 years. under Woodward players were seen as asset needed to be kept under the false pretext of "preserving their book values". This woodward's policy is the reason why we are where we are today, overbloated squad full of lazy and entitled players. Arnold or Murthough should not stand in the way if ETH thinks getting rid of some players would benefit the club's harmony and unity in long term.
 
Adam-Utd said:
No CL and spiralling wages will mean there isn't a big warchest to play with this summer, we have to accept that.

We might get in 1/2/3 but it won't be a big change at all.

This year will be about getting the fitness right, finding a good team shape and organisation IMO. We need that before we can progress.
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No Pogba, Cavani, Mata, Matic, Jesse, Eric, Jones, AWB and no Champoions League will actually decrease wages. The players get huge top ups on the wages for qualifying.
We’ll need to raise funds by selling a few players and we probably need 4 new starters. I imagine it’ll be very difficult unless the owners can find a new sponsor and push extra funds into the transfer kitty.
 
Sammy McIlroys fan club said:
The Celtic team that won the league this season had 9 starters in January who were not at the club last season. It can be done if the will is there, and Celtic spent a pittance while doing it, winning the league ahead of a Rangers side that made the Europa league final.
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Completely irrelevant. We need 9 starters that compete with the best teams in Europe, week in week out. It's not about plucking 9 out of Czech Republic or Japan for modest fees. That's why it will be built over Ten Haag's tenure, 4 or 5 names at a time.
 
pocco said:
This is hopefully true. I just think the issue is, we've all been here many times before. Usually when we hear soundbites like this from the club, they're not bluffing and actually don't want to spend too much money. I suspect not going for Conte was the first clue that we might not be serious about a rebuild and instead went for a coach that will hopefully improve what we have and is used to shoestring budgets. ETH is already talking about changing his style of football to suit what we have. I don't believe they intend to gut this squad and think they'll protect a lot of players. Rashford will have a fat new contract before long, just you watch.
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I do think the purchasing strategy might change, with mid-budget players being sought to serve the system rather than Ed Woodward superstars. That's not a bad thing as long as they do their homework thoroughly. After all, even Klopp was overruled when he wanted Julian Brandt over Mo Salah.
 
What else can they say in public? We won't have 300m to spend on new players so ETH will have to rely on Shaw, Sancho, Bruno, Varane and Ronaldo to play at their best next season. Add 4 successful signings (YUGE question mark due to our clown scouts) and we have decent team. The Glazers want top 4 but not invest to win titles.
 
The club has no choice but to sign 3-5 first team players. We have Matic, Jesse, Mata, Pogba, Cavani, Mason all leaving or unavailble. Then you have Henderson, Jones, Baily, AWB, Martial all on their way out. They literally have to spend, stay calm and we'll get at least 4 (RB, CB, DM and CM or ST)
 
Handpicked Glazer yesman in lowering expectations shocker.
 
ehsanul said:




I am worried that Ten Hag and Murtough are thinking that the squad has huge potential,if thats the case then its curtains for us and taxi for Ten Hag.
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You aren’t going to start a new job by slating the existing squad when you don’t know which ones will be able to be sold and which won’t.

If for whatever reason we can’t get our transfer targets in or can’t shift certain players we need them to feel involved not ostracised.
 
think 4 minimum is the magic number. In my opinion think it would be 2 CMs, 1 fwd who can rotate around the wings/central, and then one for the backline (where exactly can be up to ETH and company). Dont see how we do any less than that. besides ronaldo we have no other CF (unless you think eth moves rashford there or something and if so then light on wings). If we go into the season expecting Mcfred to play a lot so help us, and then our backline is a joke and needs at least one new face there on either the flanks or at CB.
 
The other thing to factor in is, money aside, are ten Hag's targets available or obtainable? Are there quality secondary options in the event of?
 
I don't think we will pull the trigger until July at least with outgoings and incoming. There might be some definite transfer ideas in his head which could happen before that but I think he will look at your Garners, Garnachos etc and our current first team for a couple of weeks before mass changes are made. And at that I can't see any more than 4 players coming in. It just doesn't happen unless you've just sold Bale ala Spurs.
 
Red_toad said:
No Pogba, Cavani, Mata, Matic, Jesse, Eric, Jones, AWB and no Champoions League will actually decrease wages. The players get huge top ups on the wages for qualifying.
We’ll need to raise funds by selling a few players and we probably need 4 new starters. I imagine it’ll be very difficult unless the owners can find a new sponsor and push extra funds into the transfer kitty.
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Ronaldo's wage equals out all of those though unfortunately.

We made quite a big loss this year, and losing CL money will be a big chunk out of our budget.

I know fans want like 7/8 new players but it just isn't going to happen.
 
Well we are not going to buy an entirely new first team and we clearly have some good players so that is good.
 
ehsanul said:
I am worried that Ten Hag and Murtough are thinking that the squad has huge potential,if thats the case then its curtains for us and taxi for Ten Hag.
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I'm almost sure that that is what will indeed happen.

Next season, I think we will start with the same starting XI that failed us this season (with maybe 1 or 2 new names in the starting XI). This will give the club an excuse to write off next season. (TBF, next season has to be written off regardless while ETH assesses the squad)
The following season (23/24) will be crucial and there will be new faces and improved results. Top 4-5 is realistic.
The season after that (24/25), I think he'll be fired, with that season being written off. This 3rd season is very difficult to predict as it is quite far away.

I want to be more positive, but I feel this would be delusional. We have players on very high wages, who cannot be sold, so ETH will be forced to polish these turds....which simply isn't possible. I don't for one second believe that Shaw, Lindeloff, Maguire, Telles, Wan Biassaka, Scott McT, Fred, Rashford, or Martial will be sold anytime soon.

It is astounding that we have so many below average players on sky-high wages. How the hell did Matt Judge who "negotiated" these contracts, survive so long?

The other issue is that while the players with poor attitudes remain, any new arrivals will be infected with this poor attitude and these new players will be the players who shall later need to be sold. It's a vicious cycle that will be very difficult to break.

So, what's the solution?
1, ETH needs to be given absolute power. No questions asked. If he tells the board that Rashford, Maguire, etc will not play in the first team ever again...then so it must be. If ETH says that a player must be sold, then this must happen.
1a, ETH must be allowed to make wholesale changes/sales to remove the bad apples, quickly. This could be mean replacing 4-5 starting XI players, in a single season
2, ETH must choose Ronaldo as captain and must work with him to weed out any players who lack the attitude to make it at the highest level (ie. the level required to win CL trophies). This is going to be painful. Several fan favourites will fail, but they must be removed and replaced in the following transfer window. ETH and Ronaldo will need to be ruthless, cutting players without emotion. ALL players must be told that if they are unable to meet the standards required, they will be sold within 12 months.
3, We need to stop buying Galactico class players on huge wages. Scouts need to be hired and told to do their job of unearthing unknown gems. Scouts who are unable to do this must be replaced with better scouts.
3a, Our fitness coaches are terrible at their job. They must be told that they must get the players down to a certain weight and up to a certain fitness level. If they cannot perform this role, they must be replaced.
4, ETH must be given realistic targets and time to succeed. Season 1, top 8; Season 2: top 5; Season 3: top 4; Season 4: finish within 15 points from the league winners.
5, We need to find hungry players who are yet to achieve much, but have the potential to become Galacticos - this is where Ralf R will show his worth. He has a proven track record of identifying players who later go onto win at the highest level.

Do I think any of the above will happen? Nope.
I think we'll continue buying big name players who sell shirts.
We'll stick with the turds we have in the squad.
Maguire will most likely be captain at the start of next season and Ronaldo will not be used as a yardstick to judge every other player in the squad.
ETH will be expected to get top 4 in his second season and if he fails, his job will be on the line. Players will sense this and if they choose to, will throw him under the bus and get him fired.
We'll continue to have players on the books, who have no hunger and have no issues with losing to teams at the bottom of the league.

Hopefully, this explains why I believe ETH is likely to fail and why his hiring won't change anything.
 
I have faith in ETH. He will be the first proper coach we have since a long time. I wouldn't underestimate what he could do with players like Sancho, Shaw, Varane, Fred.
Maybe he could even recover some form in Rashford or Maguire.
Probably too wishful thinking but I saw SAF making da Silva twins and Fletcher look like very high level players, so you can only hope.
 
Majima said:
Klopp cleared Liverpool out completely within 2 years. His first summer he had 13 out with 6 arrivals. The next he had a further 5 out with 4 in. So 18 out 10 in, job done. That's how you do it properly. None of this making do with 'existing potential' nonsense.
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What else do you expect them to say in public? "The squads shit and we need 10 new players". That's never happening. As long as we bring in 3/4 first XI signings, I'd say there is enough potential in the team.

In terms of players leaving - out of contract, we have 6 (including Greenwood) and you'd expect minimum for AWB, Bailly and Jones to go... So 9 leaving is a good start to the clear out.
 
Adam-Utd said:
I know fans want like 7/8 new players but it just isn't going to happen.
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You are right - 7 new players won't happen in a single season. BUT if we are going to make progress that's exactly what we need to do.
Remember, we don't need to buy Galacticos. Buy players in the region of £40M and anybody who doesn't work out, can be moved a year later, while we keep the players that do work out.
If we want to achieve success quickly, we need to act quickly.

This is how it should be done:

Majima said:
Klopp cleared Liverpool out completely within 2 years. His first summer he had 13 out with 6 arrivals. The next he had a further 5 out with 4 in. So 18 out 10 in, job done. That's how you do it properly. None of this making do with 'existing potential' nonsense.
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We won't do that though. We'll hang on to the turds and attempt to polish them.
 
I can't create new threads yet but thus is relevant to the squad.

How do we see ETH and Murtagh approaching incoming players.

1. Players that are game stabilisers, safe, assured technicians.

2. Game changers, more risky chance takers who can turn a game on its head.

3. A bit of both and if so 3 stabilisers and 1 risk taker?? What positions

Personally fascinated to see what way we go. As much as the squad has wildly underperformed, there is quality in it, if he can find a way to bring it out of them.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Ronaldo's wage equals out all of those though unfortunately.

We made quite a big loss this year, and losing CL money will be a big chunk out of our budget.

I know fans want like 7/8 new players but it just isn't going to happen.
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It took Klopp three seasons. His first year he signed six players, only two were hits.

We need to hope for a miracle from our recruiting department. Quality is far more important than quantity.
 
To be fair to them, they can’t come out and say the entire team is crap, even if they may feel that way. The only person who got away with that was Ralf, but generally that’s not the best practice. You hardly saw Klopp saying that when he first came to Liverpool.
 
ehsanul said:




I am worried that Ten Hag and Murtough are thinking that the squad has huge potential,if thats the case then its curtains for us and taxi for Ten Hag.
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Lets pray he is just being strategic in the hopes of avoiding to look too desperate to strengthen to ensure that we don't enter into negotiations from a position of apparent weakness. If not then all I can say the naivety is astounding and it borders on criminal neglect.
 
sunama said:
You are right - 7 new players won't happen in a single season. BUT if we are going to make progress that's exactly what we need to do.
Remember, we don't need to buy Galacticos. Buy players in the region of £40M and anybody who doesn't work out, can be moved a year later, while we keep the players that do work out.
If we want to achieve success quickly, we need to act quickly.

This is how it should be done:



We won't do that though. We'll hang on to the turds and attempt to polish them.
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mu4c_20le said:
It took Klopp three seasons. His first year he signed six players, only two were hits.

We need to hope for a miracle from our recruiting department. Quality is far more important than quantity.
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Agreed.

We also have to remember though this is United, we are seen across Europe as cash cows. Any fee is always marked up for us.

Perhaps this is another reason why our transfers get done slowly, we have to keep working the fee down to something acceptable?

To be honest I have a lot of faith in ETH, I think he can get this group of players playing much better than their current standard. Maybe it wont be as bad as we think in the future?

Lets not forget only 1 year ago we came 2nd and reached the EL final, and outplayed Villareal pretty heavily. They recently beat Bayern and gave Liverpool a good game, so we can definitely get back to that standard quickly IMO.
 
If ETH continues the narrative that the sqad has some kind of great potential then he is inviting even greater scrutiny if things don't go well next season (which I think most probably won't). Better to lower the expectations from the current squad and go from there.
 
Of course this is the approach they are going to take they arn’t going to admit to themselves that the club that has spent over a billion in the last decade assembling this squad was done so by idiots who don’t know what there doing.

No one likes to admit there wrong.
 
Its not just about slating the players.

Our fans can't just act like we are going to sell everyone because of Rangnick's stupid comments. 7- 10 players was never realistic. The truth is we have talent within the squad, but we also have glaring weaknesses that prevent the talent from shining as bright as they could. We also have some young players who can fill in the squad roles.

We have ddg, Maguire, varane, lindelof, Shaw, Fred, Bruno, Sancho, Rashford and Ronaldo who have shown signs that they can be part of the United Squad. Add that to some youngsters and sub goalkeepers and despite the huge turnover, we still have a decently sized squad. I expect to see us sign around 5 players this window, if 3 out of that 5 turnout to be good performers, it would mean that we have drastically improved.
Our focus should be to fix the key deficiencies; two midfielders, a right back and a forward. If we sign a centre back, that would also help alot.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Ronaldo's wage equals out all of those though unfortunately.

We made quite a big loss this year, and losing CL money will be a big chunk out of our budget.

I know fans want like 7/8 new players but it just isn't going to happen.
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Ronaldo’s reduced wages due to no Champions league isn’t a new nor a spiralling cost. He’s getting a pay decrease, just like the rest of the squad. Our wage bill will have lots of wiggle room for new players. We will need creative ideas for raising funds, Henderson is probably our biggest incoming transfer fee if we agree to sell him.
 
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