Maybe he's not sure he'll have a job come May?
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
Of course it is, it shows he was happy with the tactics. I cannot see Guardiola celebrating if his side played like that and then got two goals in two minutes. He would be thinking what have they been doing out there. He would be relieved he got ahead and thinking how to prevent the performance happening again but he would not be celebrating so enthusiastically as though he'd just won a trophy.
United won the league title by drawing a game and Ferguson ripped into them, despite the fact they had just been crowned champions. He was furious at the performance. I have a feeling in similar circumstances Moyes would congratulate the players.
Relief but not happiness. He was happy to have got the goals with those tactics, I wouldn't be surprised if the team had been leading up to that game coached to play like that.
I would imagine if Guardiola's United did that he would not be celebrating so enthusiastically, he would be quite angry at the performance and thinking how to change things. He would show relief that the team haven't been punished and that would subtly show in his facial expressions but I highly doubt he would respond anywhere close to the way Moyes did if our players performed as they did against fulham.
There is a difference between the reaction of a man relieved at not being punished by the opposition due to ineffective tactics compared to the reaction of a man excited and happy his tactics worked.
Moyes was the latter.
You're confused.
You dont think it was worth me asking though?
Okay fair enough. Fwiw, dont think we'd get klopp. Wouldn't mind scuppering van gaal's seemingly impending arrival to spurs.
Okay. Thanks for the info. I respect Andy Mitten quite highly. The funny thing with the database and ipads stuff is how much of that do you really need to assess a top player. I would think that sort of equipment is more useful in determining which players to sign who are a tier below top class.
That's a shame, and from what I've heard, Honingstein has been a decent journalist. It's a tough call from the club as well, whether to trust the manager or fire the players. We've been a manager's club, at least in the Fergie years and with Fergie and Charlton still at the club, we may still be a manager's club.
Thing is, I think our players are for the most part pretty likeable. I really don't think they'd simply turn on a manager for no reason.
I think ultimately it was a daft appointment, and I think for all concerned (including Moyes) it shouldn't be dragged on if it's really not working.
I think the report is accurate. Look at the reaction of our players after the second goal, and in the post match interview. They looked like they had no hope that the situation will get better, and their post match interview was just strange. Van Persie joking, Carrick can hardly keep himself form laughing, both very relaxed, not that annoyed at all... Really not what you'd expect from United players after such a disappointing result.
I think they wrote this season off, and are just hoping now that Moyes will be replaced for the next season.
I think our players come across as like-able because we've always dealt with stuff in house. Even when Sheringham and Cole fought, we never heard too much of it, and it's a great thing that Fergie instilled in our squad. Like I said, I'm not fully convinced on Moyes but I'm in the middle of both sides thinking there are teething problems, but what choice have we got? We sack a manager mid term with the season already lost and we have the leadership who apparently trust Moyes. Unfortunately IMHO, we've got to grind on and finish the season and look at the summer for changes.
Of course, I'm not arguing you agree with mine though. It's just my take on things.
Honingstein is a 'safe journalist', he mostly sticks to verifiable stories. I do think the report is accurate, but unfortunate.
In case anyone is interested to know I follow the NFL and if the Buccaneers are any indication of how the Glazers run their sports teams then god help Man United. They are utter dog-poo and been so since their sole Superbowl win a decade ago. Contrary to what many say, I've concluded that the Glazers are infact extremely stupid men and don't learn from their mistakes. They appointed a twat for head coach in Greg Schiano. An absolute nincompoop that was given his first job in Pro football after coaching college teams and even those, not one of the powerhouse college teams but freaking Rutgers. Everyone and their mom could see that Schiano wasn't going to work out in the NFL - the man was comically out of his depth and the more I think about it the more parallels I see with David Moyes. Yet they kept persisting with Schiano as if he was suddenly going to transform into a great head coach. 2 years was way too much time to give to a guy like him and the damage he dealt could take atleast a couple of years to recover from. I can just outright see the similarity between Rooney's mega-contract and when the Bucs signed Darrelle Revis. Now Revis is one of the best players in the league but the problem is that he's a shutdown cornerback (compare it to a right back in football) and that's not where the best teams put their money. This moron Schiano signed Revis on 13m per season, gave up 2 draft picks to the Jets including a downgrade from a higher 1st round pick. It was a very heavy price to pay for a man who was recovering from injury and in the NFL with its salary cap 13m is way over the mark for an injured cornerback when one of the greatest quarterbacks (the most vital position in the team) of all time - Peyton Manning makes roughly 18m. To put this idiocy into context, Richard Sherman - by far the best cornerback in the NFL made less than half a million last season. The reason I feel this is similar to Rooney is that what if the next manager doesn't want a player who's neither the greatest No. 9 nor the best AM. What if the new manager wants to play a 4-3-3, Rooney would start throwing tantrums if he's stuck to the wing. That's what worries me. We invested 300k per week in the guy and if we try sell him later he would be worth a third of the investment given that he's approaching 30 and the market for him last season wasn't too hot exactly. Schaino made more retarded decisions - cutting DE Michael Bennett from the roster - whence he was signed on a cheap one year contract by eventual Superbowl champions, Seattle Seahawks. He signed a bust player in Gabe Carami last season again wasting a 6th round draft pick and the new coach Lovie Smith had to let him walk for nothing recently. Schiano was fundamentally out of his depth and it was clear for everyone to see apart from the Glazers yet they kept giving him time. I fear they'll be extremely lenient with DM too and the damage dealt could take 2-3 years to rectify at the least. Problem is they are not football men in either sense of the term. They've not learnt the lessons with their NFL team even after 2 decades of ownership and as long as Fergie was there, they surely wouldn't have learnt zilch about our football either. So now they'll be dependent on the football men in the club to makes decisions and I fear Fergie, Gill and Sir Bobby might be too gentle with Moyes. Let's say we don't qualify for next season, that'll cost us upwards of 70 million, and what with the FFP kicking in and the other competitors qualifying even this season, we could end up messing up our finances. Let's not forget : We can talk about spending 200 m and whatnot but we're still 360 million in debt and the bonds are due for servicing in 2017. 130 million+ lost over 2 seasons by not qualifying for the CL is not something a club like ours should take lightly.
tl;dr
Schiano wasn't responsible for all signings made by Bucs though, and Bucs problem was just not Schiano but Glazers overall strategy to largely under-spend on Bucs.
Was about to ask that. Usually the HC works with the GM in terms of personnel decisions re: contracts and draft picks with the GM having the superior power. Based on my understanding. Then the HC has the power to shape his roster based on his own ideas and what his GM can get for him.
You're right to some extent, and again I think there are parallels between him and DM. Schiano was solely responsible for coaching and shared player recruitment with their GM Mark Dominik another knobhead like Wooworm. In the end they both got canned for endless dubious decisions that led to a 4-12 season. It would've been better for the jackass Schiano to just tank and get the overall 1st pick in a year when future goat Clowney is entering the draft and DE is a big need for them. But he went on a 3 game rally trying to save his job but further screwing the Buccaneer's future position. Now they have a stupid 7th overall and some great players will already be off the board by gone. Again much like Moyesy he surrounded himself with incompetent coordinators - Mike Sullivan being Steve Round and Bill Sheridan the grandpa Lumsden. And btw it's good to keep some salary space like the the Glazers did. It leaves room to manoeuvre in the free agency because there they don't have paid transfers. Like this season they have 15 million in cap space iwhoutcutting any players and they could fix some key issues. eg they could sign Greg Hardy from Panthers on UFA if they don't give him the franchise tag. That would be great business for them because Hardy is an upwardly mobile DE/ pass rusher and they need help in that department. Of they could resign Bennett on the cheap and more players for other positions.
Last edited:
I think that's a bit too far. We still have David Gill on the board, with Fergie, Charlton etc at the club. Transfers have to go through Woodward, chief scout Jim Lawlor is still at the club although Moyes has got his own scouts on the club. Let's criticize Moyes for what should be criticized and not just hypothetical scenarios. Hey, you still have a lot of items to criticize him with.
Totally agree mate and I'm not having pot shots at Moyes - I'm saying the Glazers should be able to see the similarities and pull the trigger sooner than later. But see the thing is Fergie, Sir Bobby, Gill, Lawlor wouldn't have signed a guy like Fellaini if it weren't for Moyes. That's what I'm saying. It's just these individual blunders than keep adding up against Moyesy. Now we're hearing he's lost the dressing room. And again if true that's 1 more parallel to Schiano. There's a whole lot of eerie similarities between the two and I'm surprised no-one has brought it up till now. I'll give you more - Schiano was a dour "family" man too, old school values, inept tactically, gave bland pressers, hard taskmaster, the players never responded to him, always in denial mode, was under qualified for the job, set up dull teams - their offense was the worst for yardage last season. It's just uncanny.
You dont think it was worth me asking though?
Of course mate! I fully expect it
Could have told you this 2 months ago. It ain't rocket science and is blindingly obvious.
As ive been saying, he will not survive past City/Pool games
You may be right on Klopp but club have got to try. Give him something to think about.
Im not sure on Van Gaal. Certainly better than moyes! Would rather Hiddink.
No surprise.
The way Carrick dodged the answer about whether Moyes could boost the side like Fergie on SSN showed that.
It s much easier for players to "revolt" when things are not going well. As i said in another post we have a number of players with their minds elsewhere.....some of them focusing on the World Cup, others on their next club. Moyes or no Moyes, next season we ll see lots of changes...
Exactly what i said at the time. We may not like it but Honigsteins right, player power will win here.
I honestly think he will, I don't know if I'm trying to convince myself or I truly believe it but I just don't see the club sacking him.
He should be gone by now, our form since the turn of the year would be poor for a team fighting relegation, let alone the current champions. Out of all domestic cups, the league and a top four finish is beyond our reach, we will most likely be knocked out of the UCL by a Greek team who played us of the park.
And he's still here.
Well its underst
Preventing such situation is also part and parcel of being a great manager. That was the first advice SAF gave to Keane when he became manager
Preventing such situation is also part and parcel of being a great manager. That was the first advice SAF gave to Keane when he became manager
IMO we should be less dismissive of LVG.. He is a bit mental but is a tactical genius and adept at laying the foundation for others. We're not going to vie for the title anyway whoever the manager is next year, so why not give it to Louis who's available. Best case scenario he comes in, works his magic for 2 seasons, might not win a lot but atleast gets us on par with the others. Then boom summer 2016 Pep out of contract we replace Louis with him. We know he loves him and LVG would set up the team perfectly for Guardiola to take over.
Why are we not going to vie for the title if we think that this team has massively underperformed this season?
If Moyes is to be fired or whatever, better now than before the end of the season IMHO. You'd wanna give his possible replacement the time for all the summer transfers.
Who would you want if he is sacked within the next couple of weeks? I can't see beyond Sir Alex.
If the situation is as bad as Hoenigstein reports (and, as others have said, he's a decent journalist), then is it possible he might decide to quit? He must be under an awful amount of stress at the moment if he is going into work every morning and facing a surly, mutinous group of players. And those situations are generally irretrievable and almost always end up with the manager leaving.
It must also be a concern for the owners if they are still thinking of giving Moyes the summer transfer window to rebuild. If Moyes has failed to earn the respect of our dressing room, then there must be a risk that A list signings (and we are aiming high, according to reports) would become similarly disillusioned under the current coaching team.
I think it's wishful thinking. I've pretty much accepted (reluctantly) that he will be here next season.
No doubt the team has underperformed, but next season the old players will be a year older so a lot of the key players will need replacing. Now because of that this coming summer will the real transition opposed to the farce Moyes pulled last time around when the whole playing squad remained intact. Even if a new man comes in he'll have many first team players departing and a whole lot coming in, the imprint of probably a new playing style might take some time, he may be coaching in the EPL for the first time so there may be teething issues. There's a whole lot of variables and with that many uncertainties Top 4 is attainable but unfortunately a run for the title is unlikely. OT will be like a revolving door next season and any team that goes through wholesale changes needs some time to settle down. Not to mention Chelsea and City will undoubtedly strengthen over the summer so initially they'll pull up a distance. I believe the earliest we can emerge from Davey's setback and challenge for the title is the year after.
I don't the changes need to be whole scale. Some players will definitely leave but the ones already here will also step up. Januzaj, Smalling, Jones would be more mature. Mata and Fellaini would have settled in. Lingard and Powell would have had positive loans and another year of growth to be useful at the least as squad players.
We need to buy 3 or 4 quality players in crucial areas and I believe we could be up challenging again. Assumption being that confidence and tactics improve for the better.
I think you underestimate the size of the problem. We need to find a left and a right fullback. We need an experienced CB to help bring on our young CB's. We need 2 CM players and we need to get rid of those not performing in that position. We need 2 quality wide players. The key thing is that to compete with City etc we need to be doing similar in having 2 quality players for every position. We are seriously weak in terms of our backup players to our 1st choice players.
To be fair we were the reigning champions coming into this season and the squad needed some retooling but still most of our expectations were for a Top 3 - Top 4 finish. So it would be unfair and unrealistic to expect the next man to come in, wave the magic wand and get a team that'll likely finish Top 6 max to contend for the title next season. The scars from Davey's reign will take some time to heal, he will also have to find a solution to the RVP-Rooney-Mata conundrum, Juan is wasted out wide. We will have a new left back, likely a new first choice central defensive partnership, atleast one new winger if Januzaj can lock down the other flank, a new central midfield because I don't think Fellaini will have much bearing in any decent manager's plans tbf, the only coach to ever rate him at this level was Moyes, hence why he stayed at Everton for so long and practically no big club went for him. Powell and Lingard will be fringe players at best, they're not United quality yet - look at Cole and Tunnicliffe, they were highly rated and the latter expected to break into the squad, but the transition from reserve to first team for Lingard, and 7th in Championship to Man United for Powell will be very tough. Not to mention he'll have to sort out the squad players. Valencia and Young are crap even as backup options.
EDIT : Can some kind gentleman tell me what's in this James Ducker article ? I don't have the subscription and can't read beyond the first few lines :
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/football/clubs/manchesterunited/article4017389.ece
Last edited:
I'm at a strange place right now regarding Moyes. I feel the club does need to stick the boot in and get on with the process of evolving and moving forwards rather than in circles. At the same time, from everything you hear (or the lack of it), it seems that this guy, somehow, truly has been given a free reign for a good 2 years to do whatever he pleases no matter how badly. I think this "United Way" that many of us think is laughably overrated and detrimental when taken to extremes, is given utmost importance and priority by the people who matter. And so, there is a part of me that is already looking towards next season under Moyes, with the other side kicking and screaming for a change.
- Status