Good post, but I disagree on your central point. I don't think its in the club's best interests to place the interests of an individual over the the interests of the club, and its setting a dangerous precedent to give a manager an open ended period of time because of Fergie's experience in the mid/late 80s. This sort of logic also absolves Moyes of any accountability and responsibility of excelling at his job, as he wouldn't be incentivized by the urgency of winning trophies if he feels he has 'many years' to do whatever he wants. The problems we have are partly down to injuries and partly down to Moyes' job performance - most notably tactics, substituions, and not being able to inspire the squad to play as a cohesive unit. He should rightly be held accountable for these things in these discussions. Ultimately, this is about United, not Moyes' career or Fergie's disdain for managers being sacked too soon, and accordingly, Moyes needs to show tangible signs that this is merely a blip rather than an appaling descent from winning the league by double digits to barely contending for European spot a mere 7 months later.
Moyes So Far!
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Good post, but I disagree on your central point. I don't think its in the club's best interests to place the interests of an individual over the the interests of the club, and its setting a dangerous precedent to give a manager an open ended period of time because of Fergie's experience in the mid/late 80s. This sort of logic also absolves Moyes of any accountability and responsibility of excelling at his job, as he wouldn't be incentivized by the urgency of winning trophies if he feels he has 'many years' to do whatever he wants. The problems we have are partly down to injuries and partly down to Moyes' job performance - most notably tactics, substituions, and not being able to inspire the squad to play as a cohesive unit. He should rightly be held accountable for these things in these discussions. Ultimately, this is about United, not Moyes' career or Fergie's disdain for managers being sacked too soon, and accordingly, Moyes needs to show tangible signs that this is merely a blip rather than an appaling descent from winning the league by double digits to barely contending for European spot a mere 7 months later.
Ha ha - I just think this job is too big for him and he will fail.
Well all that talk of Moyes sounding "not up to the task" turned out to be such an anti climax. Typical Twitter bollocks...who'd have thought.
Lost it when Wenger joined in.
IMO its quite simple. If the current form continues to next season he is gone. By this stage next year he would have two full pre-seasons and three transfer windows. Enough time to put his mark on the team.
One thing....if its true we turned down De Rossi for 10 mil and instead went for Afroman for 30 then somone should check Moyes and Eddies heads.
One thing....if its true we turned down De Rossi for 10 mil and instead went for Afroman for 30 then somone should check Moyes and Eddies heads.
With respect to the current form what do you mean?. To me current form would be the last half dozen games. Whats the form from that?
Daily Mail ~ Intense training and injury problems galore at United, but Moyes won't take the blame
Why did Moyes chose to repeat this? It makes it sound like he's management is being dictated by the media. How does this not sound like Moyes admitting (again) 'I didn't take him off cos I was scared of what the papers would say?'
C'mon gaffer when you're down don't give people more ammo to hit you with...
Why did Moyes chose to repeat this? It makes it sound like he's management is being dictated by the media. How does this not sound like Moyes admitting (again) 'I didn't take him off cos I was scared of what the papers would say?'
C'mon gaffer when you're down don't give people more ammo to hit you with...
Daily Mail ~ Intense training and injury problems galore at United, but Moyes won't take the blame
Why did Moyes chose to repeat this? It makes it sound like he's management is being dictated by the media. How does this not sound like Moyes admitting (again) 'I didn't take him off cos I was scared of what the papers would say?'
C'mon gaffer when you're down don't give people more ammo to hit you with...
I was thinking that just a second ago when I read it but then I thought (I hope) maybe he's trying to say he's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. What actually happened that we saw was we were chasing a goal, he asked RVP if he was fine to continue and RVP said yes. That's something that happens pretty frequently, sometimes you have to trust your player, people have a go at Moyes because some say he's not letting RVP do the training he thinks he's best suited to but then they want to criticize Moyes when he does do that.
you lot over analyze everything he says.
There's nothing wrong with what he's said.
Reporter: 'Why did you keep Van Persie on the pitch?'
Moyes: 'Well if I'd took him off you'd have just questioned that instead.'
It's the type of smart arse comment I'd give the cnuts if they kept questioning me.
Reporter: 'Why did you keep Van Persie on the pitch?'
Moyes: 'Well if I'd took him off you'd have just questioned that instead.'
It's the type of smart arse comment I'd give the cnuts if they kept questioning me.
It's mind boggling how much is being read into his comments to the media. When did we start taking everything a football manager says to the media at face value, and analyse it down to the tiniest detail, analysing every word, every nuance in speech and the way things are said?
Spot on.
I think that it was a bit like that with Fergie to be honest, but in a positive sense. The odd time Fergie would come out with a comment which seemed odd on the face of it, which people then usually chalked up to mind games or whatever, "master of manipulating the media" etc. Now that Moyes is in charge, a lot of people are still looking for deeper meanings where there are none; Moyes seems to say what he means and that's it.
So actually what's this horrible, shocking and embarrassing things Moyes said to the rags today ?
Great post.
Excellent post.
I don't understand the argument of retaining a manager for a period of time to protect the traditions of the club. It makes no sense.
What's important for Moyes is for him to show improvement in this team. If he can do that then providing time isn't a problem.
most probably nothing, but it s still enough for some to start grumbling.....
[The Neviller mode] Witch hunt, you're not a supporter (but you're a fan) because you don't support, you only criticize (what is the joy from it), you are one of the worst posters here.[/The Neviller mode]
Great post by the way.
well..at the end of the day the only thing that would push him out the door should results not change is by fans voting with their feet. United is a business now after all...
This is absolute nonsense. It's a good post because he hasn't been a twat and has been reasoned in his points. I agree with him, because he isn't just advocating getting rid, he's talked about improvement, which is something we all want to see.
Stop being a fecking child.
And what? Get rid now? A sensible club gives their manager time to improve, and backs him with the finances needed. He's been here half a season. If he doesn't begin to show improvement over the next season or so then he'll be gone I'd imagine, and nobody could argue.
What defines being a twat? To be fair, I haven't advocated getting rid of him yet, and yes I have been talking about improvement.
We have improved a bit. We won 4 games in a row in the league (6 in all competitions) that despite were against teams who fight relegation was still good and something we couldn't do before this season.
I also think that we are playing better than in the beginning though the tactics are still pass the ball to the wingers and then cross.
It isn't near good enough and likely this kind of style won't get us the fourth place, but in the beginning we were looking like Stoke City.
To be fair, that seems to be the general consensus. No-one wants to see him play out a 6 year contract if he's unable to improve the team from what we are seeing now. I see very few people wanting Moyes out now anyway. It's typically a case of writing this season off, waiting to see how he approaches the summer and where we are next season, if it's a similar tale then we move on without him. I think the biggest disagreement on this whole issue is the notion we should just give him x amount of years regardless of how good our football is or where we are.
And you are right. My biggest debates on this forum were with people who think that Moyes should get a few years regardless of anything. Only a couple of days someone said that Moyes should get a minimum of 4 years regardless of success and performances which is completely absurd and disturbing to read.
All this talk of how long he "should" get is irrelevant really. If he misses out on the top 4 this season many would think he should be off. If he shows no improvement next season and we're still struggling to get into the top 4 then I'm fairly certain the owners will wince at the financial hit and sack him. Simple as that. Us doing well is what makes them money so if Moyes doesn't manage to get us to the standard that most on here seem to require (i.e. in the champions' league) then he's going to get the sack.
I find the idea that he should have a minimum of a few years without any strings attached completely ridiculous, it has to actually relate to our performances and positions. Those people also don't really believe it, or only believe it on a conditional basis. Say for example, next season we finished 17th. Not one person would be arguing for Moyes to have another couple years before we judge him or time to build his team, it would be get the feck out.
I have seen at-least two posters here that have been saying that Moyes should be let to continue his work even in case we get relegated. Both said that they were serious, though I don't have any idea if that was the case or it was simply an extreme case of being a top red.
This is a great succinct post.
That should really be common sense but unfortunately we seem to have more fans dealing in extremes and taking opposite sides rather than judging Moyes for the actual job he has done or can do.
There seems to be a faction(not just in this forum) who take any questions raised about Moyes performance so far to be a personal insult of Fergie himself and other who even want him to fail so that they can stick to their pre conceived notion that Moyes ain't good enough for United. We could probably give Moyes a bit more leeway than any other manager because he was recommended by Fergie after all but lowering the bar so much that it hurts us as a club is not really ideal.
What will be in best interest of the United will be to keep the emotions aside when it comes to Moyes and judge him like you judge a West Brom or similar manager.
Of course it has to be conditional, like every single employment on this planet. Which CEO gets two or three years "no matter what". There are some basic minimum criteria's one must fulfil in any case. What that should be is debatable. For me, it should be top 4.
I can't seriously believe any person would want Moyes to be given another game if he got us relegated. Even though it would never happen, if it did they'd change their minds, unless they are lunatics.
Yes, I know that, the problem is many seem to not accept this or look at a scenario where the results outweigh the benefit of time.
I think the unanimous consensus at the beginning of the season was Top four minimum for him, which was fair, yes it's a squad with lots of faults but it's still a good one, better than Liverpool, Spurs and Everton for sure, and arguably on par/slightly below Chelsea and Arsenal. It's certainly one that should be very capable of top 4 despite having a new manager but also clearly isn't at the level required to beat that Man City team to the title.
Suddenly we're doing shit and people are changing their expectations around, it's ok to miss out on the CL, it's ok to finish 7th or 8th despite having a far better squad than most of the teams who could finish above it. Why? The main reasons I've heard to back this up are because Moyes needs time, the squad needs improving, and we gave him a six year contract. All well and good but surely there needs to be a middle ground too, there needs to be a certain level of trust in the manager himself, which is hard to give right now considering our situation.
I think if we finish outside of the top four, he should still get another transfer window and be given a hefty budget, but anything beyond that should be open to how we're doing next year. If, for example, at this time next season, we're still sitting in this position, I'd definitely want him gone. People can call me a spoilt brat for that (and I'm sure they will) but it's more so because I think at that point he's been given enough time and that clearly he hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking the mantle at our club.
Suddenly we're doing shit and people are changing their expectations around, it's ok to miss out on the CL, it's ok to finish 7th or 8th despite having a far better squad than most of the teams who could finish above it. Why? The main reasons I've heard to back this up are because Moyes needs time, the squad needs improving, and we gave him a six year contract. All well and good but surely there needs to be a middle ground too, there needs to be a certain level of trust in the manager himself, which is hard to give right now considering our situation.
I think if we finish outside of the top four, he should still get another transfer window and be given a hefty budget, but anything beyond that should be open to how we're doing next year. If, for example, at this time next season, we're still sitting in this position, I'd definitely want him gone. People can call me a spoilt brat for that (and I'm sure they will) but it's more so because I think at that point he's been given enough time and that clearly he hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking the mantle at our club.
We've always been extremely dependant on wing play. We play nothing like Stoke either.
He wouldn't get that long anyway. If we finish 17th he's off, the owners simply won't have it. Anyone arguing either polar extreme is being a wanker. If we just miss out on top 4 but clearly improve dramatically he's unlikely to get sacked either, rightfully, but there's people here saying anything less than 4th and he doesn't deserve another crack at it.
To be fair they were serious. One compred the situation to the last manager who relegated us and how at that time there were people who wanted him to get sacked but the club didn't sacked him so United supporters had great emotions from championship performances and ultimatelly we bounced back. Utter lunacity!
The majority of my posts here are with people who have these extreme opinions (or like a couple of days ago someone who claimed than no manager would have been doing better than Moyes, and it is deluded to say that our squad is as good as Chelsea) that in order to support Moyes rewrite history, call others deluded (or offend them) and make stupid comparisons (like the guy who advocated that Moyes is a better manager than Mourinho). Sacking Moyes now would be premature and most likely will make things even worse, but some of the defenses he gets here are on the level of critics he gets from Pimpy.
Spot on. This. This opinion has the huge benefit of actually being realistic as well.
No mention of the quality of squad he inherited. This of course is where the caf falls into two camps, and has done for 18 months or more; those who point to the league title and Fergie's record, saying it must be a great squad; and those who say 'I've been using my own eyes and the team is a long way short of what it was, title or no title'. All those in the former camp will indeed say 'good post', personally I think we need a major rebuild, and we wont' be able to judge that until after the summer, when the new management, at all levels, has had the chance to bed in and start to move the club in it's own direction.
I'd go with that. I'd be really disappointed with anything but a Top 4 position this season, but would definitely want him to get a huge budget to make his case for the next. However, if we were in the same position or showed near enough no real improvement next season, I'd want him gone too.
We always had good wingers and right now all our wingers are either not performing or are simply not good enough.
The Stoke part was from the beginning of the season, when we only knew how to hoof the ball and couldn't score (or create a chance) from open play even if our lives were depended on it. Things have improved in the last month or so and so have been the performances of a few players (especially Welbeck and Cleverley), Young to a degree and Moyes decision to play our young defenders instead of Rio/Vidic has made us a better team because they can actualy pass the ball to our (weak) midfield instead of hoofing it to no-one.
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