Who do you think has been our best player if not him? DDG has made numerous saves in top games and got us victories against the other teams. No one stands out as much as him.
Mourinho : "Transfer spend is not enough"
- Thread starter Maradona10
- Start date
Who do you think has been our best player if not him? DDG has made numerous saves in top games and got us victories against the other teams. No one stands out as much as him.
He's partially right. It was fine back in the day when we were setting the standards in the PL under Ferguson and both sugar daddy clubs had to start from scratch and gradually buy their way from throwing money into a bottomless barrel (signing anyone available) to full acknowledgement as top clubs. As a result of our own bad choices, we find ourselves in the predicament where we are the ones who must play catch up. We don't set the tone anymore, they do and if they are willing to spend big in order to improve squads that are already better than ours then we need to spend too.
But... the truth of the matter is that we have already spent lots of money on this squad. Mourinho hasn't spent all of it but, nevertheless, he has spent quite a lot in the last two summer windows. But can we truly say that it was money well spent?
Firstly, the defence. It's really comical that we've reached (again) this familiar point in our season where our first back-four choices are Valencia/Young as FBs and two out of Smalling/Jones/Rojo as centre-halves. It's truly unbelievable. That's about 75 million Euros on Bailly and Lindelof who don't seem to be significant improvements on what we already had (at the moment).
Then, the midfield. I believe that both Pogba and Matic were good purchases. The problem isn't the nearly 150 million Euros spent on those two by Mourinho but whether it was a wise choice to spent 9 figures (in Euros) on a single player and, furthermore, one who isn't yet but will eventually become a world-class player and a leader in our team or if it would have been better to spend this money more wisely. Because that is what Mourinho is basically moaning about right now: The lack of composure, experience and leadership that prevents us from becoming a great team instead of being just a great club. We also have to take into account that Pogba's long absence showed that, tactically speaking, Mourinho had placed all his hopes for the midfield on Pogba. We really struggle without him or when he's in bad form.
Lastly, the attack. The crime here is that he chose to go into the season with Mkhitaryan and Mata as his main options when it comes to linking the midfield with the attack. Basically, i don't know why the hell he signed Miki when he had no intention to apply any pressing tactics. Now the Armenian is with one foot out of the club. Well, that's 40 million Euros down the drain. And despite the fact that these two players hadn't shown him any signs that they could do the job like he wants it to be done, he went on to spend 85 million Euros on a forward who is utterly useless on the football pitch when the service to him is inadequate.
That's about 300 million Euros spent by him and we still pray for Jones/Smalling to stay fit, we still put too much weight on the shoulders of Rashford and Martial and we wait for Lingard to save the day for us.
Still, if he doesn't lose his cool, he can lead this squad to its strongest finish in the post-Ferguson era. He should really focus on that instead of complaining about everything.
But... the truth of the matter is that we have already spent lots of money on this squad. Mourinho hasn't spent all of it but, nevertheless, he has spent quite a lot in the last two summer windows. But can we truly say that it was money well spent?
Firstly, the defence. It's really comical that we've reached (again) this familiar point in our season where our first back-four choices are Valencia/Young as FBs and two out of Smalling/Jones/Rojo as centre-halves. It's truly unbelievable. That's about 75 million Euros on Bailly and Lindelof who don't seem to be significant improvements on what we already had (at the moment).
Then, the midfield. I believe that both Pogba and Matic were good purchases. The problem isn't the nearly 150 million Euros spent on those two by Mourinho but whether it was a wise choice to spent 9 figures (in Euros) on a single player and, furthermore, one who isn't yet but will eventually become a world-class player and a leader in our team or if it would have been better to spend this money more wisely. Because that is what Mourinho is basically moaning about right now: The lack of composure, experience and leadership that prevents us from becoming a great team instead of being just a great club. We also have to take into account that Pogba's long absence showed that, tactically speaking, Mourinho had placed all his hopes for the midfield on Pogba. We really struggle without him or when he's in bad form.
Lastly, the attack. The crime here is that he chose to go into the season with Mkhitaryan and Mata as his main options when it comes to linking the midfield with the attack. Basically, i don't know why the hell he signed Miki when he had no intention to apply any pressing tactics. Now the Armenian is with one foot out of the club. Well, that's 40 million Euros down the drain. And despite the fact that these two players hadn't shown him any signs that they could do the job like he wants it to be done, he went on to spend 85 million Euros on a forward who is utterly useless on the football pitch when the service to him is inadequate.
That's about 300 million Euros spent by him and we still pray for Jones/Smalling to stay fit, we still put too much weight on the shoulders of Rashford and Martial and we wait for Lingard to save the day for us.
Still, if he doesn't lose his cool, he can lead this squad to its strongest finish in the post-Ferguson era. He should really focus on that instead of complaining about everything.
Lukaku was our most creative player against Leicester. Some of his link up play has been excellent and has been let down by the finishing of players like Rashford and Linguard.
Insanely wealthy clubs complaining about super insanely wealthy clubs just seems funny to me.
Feyenoord held of on buying a promising striker because 6 million was a bit steep, but let's all laugh at Feyenoord, because they're shite in the CL. How come Dutch football has become so shite
boohoo, my transfer budget is only 200 million, feck off.
2 years ago, Nice were able to play against PSG and actually look competitive. And the spending of both clubs weren't remotely comparable.
We've second in the league. The only team above us has spent more money. If it comes down to money, how is that not acceptable? Your logic is nonsensical.
Oh yeah we need to be more attacking like Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea. Remind me again how many more goals they've scored than us? I'll wait.
As opposed to last few years he hasn't been bailing us out game in game out. Making great saves in few games vs top opposition which he of course made doesn't mean he has been standing out. And good that he hasn't which means he hasn't had so much work to do.
Oh please, he had an outstanding game against Arsenal and suddenly is our best player? He is world class yeah, but not the player of the year so far.
The joys of Jose.
Draw with Leicester = players fault
Draw with Burnley = Boards fault for not spending enough.
While our squad still needs improving, not many are blaming Jose here. He has been tactfully awful in a lot of games, and doesn't seem to have a balance throughout the squad. Our fringe players do not work hard enough when giving a chance, and our real talents like pogba. Martial, rashford and lukaku are not delivering enough, far too inconsistent.
Its not moneys fault, its the coaching and the attitude and desire of the players that is woeful currently
Draw with Leicester = players fault
Draw with Burnley = Boards fault for not spending enough.
While our squad still needs improving, not many are blaming Jose here. He has been tactfully awful in a lot of games, and doesn't seem to have a balance throughout the squad. Our fringe players do not work hard enough when giving a chance, and our real talents like pogba. Martial, rashford and lukaku are not delivering enough, far too inconsistent.
Its not moneys fault, its the coaching and the attitude and desire of the players that is woeful currently
That's my point. Mou shouldnt use money as an excuse. He has more than enough of it to compete with any club in the world.
I just think it's funny that the same people that wonder what happened to club football at countries where there's little money going around turn around and say United can't compete with City because they're rich.
PS: in what way were Nice competitive 2 years ago? I don't follow the league one, but they ended over 30 points under PSG
Need to get the players to play for the club and the badge chucking money at it just won't do.
Yet he has bought 2 CBs, when he inherited a team without fullbacks...
How many points did PSG win the league by? And where did Nice finish?
Are you saying we didn't need those CBs?
They finished fourth and I'm talking about head to head which is clearly stated in the post. The point in a way is simple, to play well and cohesively you don't need to spend 500m, the 500m are extremely useful if you want to play extremely well and be extremely regular at the highest level. And it's a general point not really aimed at Mourinho or anybody in particular.
Mourinho isn't seeking to make an objective, reasoned point; rather he's publicly pressurising Woodward to secure his preferred transfer targets in January. It's not coincidental that he's started moaning about transfers a few days before the window opens.
Wasnt that last season?
Yeah, I was thinking about the season when they finished 4th, they were better that season but had absolutely no depth.
Edit: To explain it better. 2 years ago Nice were the second best team with their starting eleven, the only team really able to play against PSG and look competitive but they had zero depth and it costed them. On the other end Monaco weren't good, they were struggling against most teams and they actually looked like United this season but they had individuals able to make the difference.
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Under any normal circumstances 4 is probably more than enough so you could say we didn’t need Lindelof.
Problem is that they can’t stay fit for long enough to play into good form and we end up with midfielders playing CB again.
Time for a toilet flush
Why are Lukaku Mkhi and Lindelof average players?
This is starting to get a bit overrated myth tbh.
SAF always had the best or second best team in the league imo, except his last few seasons after Ronaldo and Tevez left, and his last season was one of the weakest EPL competition wise. The period when he was rebuilding the team was the period Chelsea and Arsenal dominated the league, but you can't argue in any other season we had the best or second best starting line up in the league at least. Was the 2008-2009 team a bang average one ? No it wasn't.
Having a bang average squad players on the bench is normal but we always had a strong main lineup under SAF except his last 2 seasons.
The point is SAF was brilliant in moving from generation to the next one. He bought 2 youngsters in Rooney and Ronaldo and got them in the team at the same time of having great players in the attack as Ruud, so when the later left both were already established now and can lead the team, and so on. Currently we don't have anyone to cope with the normal inconsistency of our 2 youngsters Rashford and Martial, so we're struggling to keep our rhythm.
But the whole idea of always having average team under SAF is heavily underrating of our players at this era.
Certainly not this summer, and I'm saying fullback and also wingers we're clearly a higher priority. We have those players Tuanzebe and Fosu Mensah who could have provided cover
A full back would have been more useful than Lindelöf.
Wasn't aware that about City squad age, couldn't have been much in it when we had Carrick, Young, Valencia and Rooney.
Doesn't matter how much you spend on wages and transfers if the players are not good enough though, that much is true with any club. The majority of our squad fall into high wages and not actually good enough category imo. Jose has played a part for sure but so have the previous managers including SAF. Pep has spent more, that much is fact and did have better players to start with regardless of average age.
Big difference is top players at City get huge wages just like our top players however we tend to give big wages to much lesser players also and then struggle to offload them for this reason and cause our already generous cheque book to have limits. This is the side of the club I really think needs improving and our transfer policy seems all over the shop despite the many boasts by Ed Woodward, our scouting too looks non existent when it comes to players that can walk straight into the team as opposed to young teenagers.
What our club does second to none though is sell itself to sponsors and make money for its owners, City dont have that motivation it seems, they just want to build a monopoly of title winning teams domestically and in Europe, where money is endless. I think if any filthy rich billionaire ever does buy Man Utd and simply want to make us the best on the pitch again they would spend, spend, spend until we got there as FFP seems easily manipulated and almost void so I don't think City will rest on their laurels, they will continue spending.
I think if Pep and Jose swapped places for shits and giggles on September 1st 2017, Jose would win the league and Pep would be in a fight for top 4, United would play more expansive football and City would be more pragmatic in big games but nothing would change...I dont believe Jose is all powerful and great but I don't think Pep is either although tactically more sound. City simply have better balanced and technical players who do not miss chance after chance or cannot make simple 5 yard passes or intelligent movement - again people may say this is Jose fault in training but they seemed to be even worse under the previous two managers, so again its the players lack of ability for me.
Thus why Jose needs to spend even more, he bought Matic to provide more steel and protection to our midfield as Schneiderlin failed miserably - we have improved. He bought Pogba to add control and passing from midfield as Carrick is getting on and too slow - we have improved. I dont think he would have bought Lukaku had Zlatan stayed fit last year, the money would have been used for other areas in my opinion. He thought Mkhi would be a solution to Rooney but that has failed. He obviously doesn't trust Smalling, Rojo and Jones' injury record so he bought Bailly,who now ironically is just as injury prone as Jones and then we got Lindelof who seems to have been scouted forever before finally joining but he has looked like a rabbit in headlights so will take time. Jose clearly had a vision of what his starting 11 would finally be and is probably only half way close to completing it, Zlatan was only ever a short term fix but I think Jose thought he would have had the full two years before having to buy a new number 9, so again I think funds were used up on Lukaku as opposed to say a new full back and wide player which would have given us more balance and fluidity despite the efforts of Young, Martial, Rashford etc.
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So we are second in the league and life is all rosy? We are only behind City because we have spent less money than them? I think its your logic that is nonsensical. If you don't think those teams play better attacking football than us then you are delusional. We are better defensively however our park the bus approach is holding our attacking play back.
One good game
, he has saved in numerous games. Who do you think has been our best player so far then?Who do you think has been our best player?
You are right of course. People are now throwing Rojo out. I think they are forgetting what a serious injury he has had, same with Zlatan. They need to be eased back gradually and in due to injuries to Bailly and now Smalling and Jones at times, that has not happened.
Our partial Problem i feel is our players are not consistent at all, especially our attacking players, they seem to blow to hot and cold too often for my liking and on top of that we don't have experienced attacking players. Mata is experienced but he has not been able to replicate his form from Chelsea,Mikhi, Honestly with him i don't know what's wrong whether it is his form or the tactics he just has not been able to show his real potential(We should sell him in this window and invest on some other experienced player).So this leaves us with our main attacking players as Martial,Rashford, Lingard, Lukaku and when i compare these with the players that other teams have who apparently play great attacking stuff, our players lack Experience. So we should invest some amount of money on a ready made attacker who can contribute week in week out mostly and will share some of attacking responsibilities.This lack of experience is what doesn't allow us to keep possession when we are under pressure and this why teams(bottom half) attack us once we park the bus, there is some sort of control even during one team parks the bus because once we get the ball we can keep possession for a while.
The next thing which i could point out is the tactics,Yesterday our asses were on fire after we conceded 2 goals and we pressed and pressed which in turn gave us the ball and we attacked again and again, if we could do that for sometime in other matches as well, against top 6 sides or our away games, i am not asking the entire team to go gung ho all the time but in periods, then we can achieve much more success.
The last thing would be having players who are good with the ball when there is pressure on them, i can only see Pogba or a couple of other players keep the ball under pressure,rest all just succumb when they are pressed.Especially our defenders.
So Jose definitely has some thinking to do before buying any other players.
The next thing which i could point out is the tactics,Yesterday our asses were on fire after we conceded 2 goals and we pressed and pressed which in turn gave us the ball and we attacked again and again, if we could do that for sometime in other matches as well, against top 6 sides or our away games, i am not asking the entire team to go gung ho all the time but in periods, then we can achieve much more success.
The last thing would be having players who are good with the ball when there is pressure on them, i can only see Pogba or a couple of other players keep the ball under pressure,rest all just succumb when they are pressed.Especially our defenders.
So Jose definitely has some thinking to do before buying any other players.
I think maybe he is laying the foundations of not being here next season. Or alternately he is dead serious about building a monster squad and overhauling Guardiola.
If he has any real professional pride it will be the latter option.
If he has any real professional pride it will be the latter option.
Problem is we're short in both positions at this time and we needed to rotate and play both Zlatan and Rojo.
I think both who puts full blame on manager, and those who put full blame on the players are both very extreme overreacting opinions. We have a good manager and definitely a good squad with very good players. The main problem is the level of consistency of our team, which is due to over depending on youngsters in the attack because of the lack of good senior players to elevate the pressure, so we'll always have periods like this when Rashford or Martial forms got dropped. Either we wait till they both become more consistent or we get better elite players to accompany them and relief the pressure from them.
This might cheer you up.
11:36
Real Madrid 'ready to sell Bale'
Real Madrid are reportedly ready to sell Gareth Bale in January.
United have a long-standing interest in Bale, and remain interested in signing him.
And Spanish outlet Diario Gol reports that Real Madrid are now willing to sell the Welshman as early as January.
This might cheer you up.
11:36
Real Madrid 'ready to sell Bale'
Real Madrid are reportedly ready to sell Gareth Bale in January.
United have a long-standing interest in Bale, and remain interested in signing him.
And Spanish outlet Diario Gol reports that Real Madrid are now willing to sell the Welshman as early as January.
No, not that kind of senior players that I wanted.
He certainly looks desperately unhappy there.
I think that it's more difficult than many people appreciate. Our best players at the club, outside of the ones Mourinho had to bring himself, were our GK and then the likes of Martial, Rashford, Herrera and Mata. None of these are bad players, but none of them would get into top teams regularly. We overestimate Rashford because he's a young, English United player, but he's 'potentially very good' and that all. He's never going to be a world class player or even close. he can sometimes do things that look special, but more often than not he looks like he's confused by his own legs when dribbling and if it comes off, it's usually because it bounced off a defender's legs. His crossing is a joke too. He's got potential, but wouldn't get into a top class side other than from the bench maybe at times. Martial is similar in that he has potential, but he's stagnated and may never reach the potential he showed early on. He can be excellent, but can also frustrate. Not a top level player yet, but probably will be. Mata is a little past it now and always had his limitations even at his peak, wouldn't be a starter for any top level side and Herrera certainly wouldn't.
These were our absolute top players. The rest were mostly a level or two below this too! We had so much dross to cut loose that we're still lumbered with some now, and we couldn't really expect to raise much money from the sales. Yes, Mourinho spent a lot, but he's essentially building a top team from one that was in real trouble and had been trying to pass off decent players as world class players for a long time. Buying sub-par replacements and being generally mismanaged.
I'm not saying that nobody could have done better, but when you have to replace 8-9 first team players over time, as well as a frankly poor squad, you can see why he's not had the easy time Pep has with a squad of world-class players and good-excellent players as well as unlimited funds to improve from this. It's going to take a good deal more spending to catch up as we're behind them in almost every single position, including on the bench.
These were our absolute top players. The rest were mostly a level or two below this too! We had so much dross to cut loose that we're still lumbered with some now, and we couldn't really expect to raise much money from the sales. Yes, Mourinho spent a lot, but he's essentially building a top team from one that was in real trouble and had been trying to pass off decent players as world class players for a long time. Buying sub-par replacements and being generally mismanaged.
I'm not saying that nobody could have done better, but when you have to replace 8-9 first team players over time, as well as a frankly poor squad, you can see why he's not had the easy time Pep has with a squad of world-class players and good-excellent players as well as unlimited funds to improve from this. It's going to take a good deal more spending to catch up as we're behind them in almost every single position, including on the bench.
I realize that I went on a tangent and didn't really address the subject of the thread.
Mourinho is right about the need to build a team and he is right about the fact that United's ambitions should mirror the status of the team more than the status of the club. Now, where I disagree is when people put the blame on everything but Mourinho, as he said the first goal is to build a team and in my opinion you start with a first eleven.
When Mourinho joined United we had 1 young striker with 17 goals and an other young striker with potentially a dozen of them, we had a world class goalkeeper and a serviceable back four. What we didn't had was a good midfield and good attacking midfielders, that's where he should have focused the spendings. If you want to follow a process start with the weakest points not average or promising ones, 18 months later, he undeniably improved the CM position with Pogba and Matic but he spent badly the rest of the budget not because he bought bad players but because he bought players we could have done without and who weren't going to fix our initial first XI problems.
What I'm saying here isn't a way to ask for his sacking or to not support him until at least the end of his contract, I'm just pointing out that his decisions put the club in a slightly lengthier rebuilding process.
Mourinho is right about the need to build a team and he is right about the fact that United's ambitions should mirror the status of the team more than the status of the club. Now, where I disagree is when people put the blame on everything but Mourinho, as he said the first goal is to build a team and in my opinion you start with a first eleven.
When Mourinho joined United we had 1 young striker with 17 goals and an other young striker with potentially a dozen of them, we had a world class goalkeeper and a serviceable back four. What we didn't had was a good midfield and good attacking midfielders, that's where he should have focused the spendings. If you want to follow a process start with the weakest points not average or promising ones, 18 months later, he undeniably improved the CM position with Pogba and Matic but he spent badly the rest of the budget not because he bought bad players but because he bought players we could have done without and who weren't going to fix our initial first XI problems.
What I'm saying here isn't a way to ask for his sacking or to not support him until at least the end of his contract, I'm just pointing out that his decisions put the club in a slightly lengthier rebuilding process.
Matić
Young, Jones..
I'd like to know what are those numerous games DDG has saved us in?
You wonder what frame of mind he would be in as well. Anyone who may come in, not sure there will be anyone by the way. He wants to stay at Real, they want him gone. We need people who will give us something a bit extra, not someone feeling sorry for themselves.No, not that kind of senior players that I wanted.
Wonder what he'll say if we slip below Chelsea and Liverpool, sure he'll have a new excuse lined up.
Why do you think that?