[Kag]

I'd like to know what makes you so sure that Schneiderlin has been objectively better if his presence in the team hasn't resulted in better results or better performances. It's all well and good saying Carrick has just coincidentally played in winning teams but surely you have an explanation for why Schneiderlin hasn't been part of well performing teams in the majority of his appearances despite "objectively" playing well?

I agree - Schneiderlin would've helped in the Arsenal game. Though that's the only game you can point to then it suggests he's not quite that critical. On the flipside we can point to an inability to score on multiple occasions with him in the team...and I think there's every reason to believe that's not just coincidental, IMO.

I just think he's generally played better individually. His work rate is outstanding, he's crucial to our much improved pressing game and his passing has been greatly improved of late - after an iffy start. I think he stamps more authority on the game than Carrick and is better on the ball under pressure. This season, anyway.

I approach the debate from a position of weakness because we so obviously see better results with Carrick on the field. But I don't think we get better performances.

Even if you analyse the dropped points when without Carrick, if you pick the games apart on an individual basis then you'd see that Romero played a dud in the defeat to Swansea, Rooney couldn't hit a barn door in the draw against Newcastle, and although we dropped points to City at home, our midfield was superior to theirs. Carrick didn't play (I think) and we didn't win those games. Was that because of his absence? I'm not so sure.

I thought this last season, too, for what it's worth. The stats dictated that he was important to us, but I was rarely greatly impressed with him.

I don't think Schneiderlin is to blame for our lack of goals. I don't think any of the midfielders are, to be honest.

 

[ZDwyr]

I thought his energy and determination was excellent. He made some good interceptions and tackles too. However I didn't rate him too highly because we really did struggle to control the midfield at times, and that was partly down to him.

 

[bucky]

How many games have we been found lacking in when he hasn't played? He offers all of these things like bite, energy, defensive protection etc. but how many times has us "lacking" that really hindered the team? Very rarely, in my view.

Though that's the only game you can point to then it suggests he's not quite that critical. On the flipside we can point to an inability to score on multiple occasions with him in the team...and I think there's every reason to believe that's not just coincidental, IMO.

Are you sure you are criticising the right player there? Seems to me you are criticising the role Schneiderlin is playing. Would you say the same of Coquelin? It's a bit odd to downplay what Schneiderlin does for us, considering he's doing what he's supposed to do and what he was bought for, while neither Carrick nor Schweinsteiger have been as good as they've been in their roles in the past. I'm fairly sure Wenger highly appreciates what Coquelin does for his team and that it enables Cazorla to play as well as he has. Especially when you consider the experience Carrick and Schweinsteiger have, it's confusing to be as forgiving as you are for their performances, whilst ignoring that Schneiderlin is very much new to this kind of level or club.

 

[Halftrack]

Do you think that's strange? I think it's illuminating. If he plays well when we don't play well then perhaps what he does well isn't actually that important or even beneficial to the team. People might like seeing it but that's deceptive. People say Carrick couldn't have done what he did and I agree - but he wouldn't have had to. He's covered for Schweinstiger's poor performances on the ball and helped us dominate the midfield regardless.

It's setting the bar extremely low if we're saying "well, we lost control of the midfield, and in that scenario he did well to get stuck in and battle away". We should be expecting him to wrestle back control of the midfield. That's his role. Defending well is part of that but not the extent of it.

How many games have we been found lacking in when he hasn't played? He offers all of these things like bite, energy, defensive protection etc. but how many times has us "lacking" that really hindered the team? Very rarely, in my view.

We keep a clean sheet in ~50% of our games with or without him so I don't think we can say any of the above really translates into better defensive performances. We could say it translates to unquantifiable things like midfield dominance and leave it there, but I just think his influence is being vastly overstated. I think that's mostly because he fits the profile of the kind of player so many people have wanted since Keane retired, so just by his style of play alone he wins praise.

You seem hellbent on discrediting Schneiderlin, and I'm not sure if you genuinely don't like or if you're just being contrarian. It's natural for a player like Schneiderlin to fade in games where we are in control, but he's usually key to us maintaining that control thanks to his excellent workrate and tireless running.

The games where Carrick's been on the bench and we've had a poor result haven't been the sort of games where having Carrick on would have solved anything, as Kag rightly points out. And you're vastly overrating Carrick's ability to impose himself on games (on current form, at least). And I don't think praising him for doing a good job winning the wall and for his defensive workrate is setting the bar low, given the he's primarily a defensive midfielder who was primarily bought for his abilities as such. If we're relying on him to take on the role of playmaker as well, then his midfield partner isn't doing his job.

I seriously can't wrap my head around the line of thinking that leads giving Morgan shit for not doing enough to help control the midfield when his partner is the one who's actually playing poorly. It's completely devoid of any logic.

Your only post in the Schweinsteiger-thread is praising him for his reaction after the goal, but you go out of your way to shit all over Schneiderlin. It reeks of an (and this is a word that gets thrown around a lot on here these days, and that I (personally) don't use lightly) agenda.

 

[El Zoido]

I think he's underappreciated and he quietly goes about his job without making too many ripples. You could have said the same about Carrick for a good few years before people realised how critical he was to us.

 

[Nighteyes]

I honestly have no idea what it is he actually does or is supposed to do aside from running around. Schweinstiger has been shit as well but he does have a good pass or two on him once in a while and I can sort of see why he's in the team. Also, for someone who's supposed to be good defensively, he gets caught out of position an awful lot. You can criticize all of Herrera/Carrick/Schweinstiger but their quality is there for all to see. Schneiderlin just looks bang average.

 

[Adisa]

I honestly have no idea what it is he actually does or is supposed to do aside from running around. Schweinstiger has been shit as well but he does have a good pass or two on him once in a while and I can sort of see why he's in the team. Also, for someone who's supposed to be good defensively, he gets caught out of position an awful lot. You can criticize all of Herrera/Carrick/Schweinstiger but their quality is there for all to see. Schneiderlin just looks bang average.

 

[mumbai_red]

The kind of game he was bought for. Some really good tackles and interceptions to win possession/break-up their attack. I really wish he had more quality in attack, its almost like he plays well within himself when we're on the ball.

 

[Nighteyes]

Great argument. Well made.

No half decent DM should find himself chasing the play back as often as he does. Something Fellaini (quite rightly) got lots of stick for.

 

[Kag]

That (a few) people can't actually recognise the stratospheric improvement of the United midfield, and just how well the players in there are playing to dominate games like we do, is frightening.

Our midfield is an actual, proper midfield. You know, one that passes the ball to those ahead of them, keeps the game ticking, presses the opposition and actively wins the ball back. I think it's the best, most functional midfield in the division. Schneiderlin is a big reason why.

 

[Cereal Killer]

I honestly have no idea what it is he actually does or is supposed to do aside from running around. Schweinstiger has been shit as well but he does have a good pass or two on him once in a while and I can sort of see why he's in the team. Also, for someone who's supposed to be good defensively, he gets caught out of position an awful lot. You can criticize all of Herrera/Carrick/Schweinstiger but their quality is there for all to see. Schneiderlin just looks bang average.

Great argument. Well made.
No half decent DM should find himself chasing the play back as often as he does. Something Fellaini (quite rightly) got lots of stick for.

 

[Cereal Killer]

That (a few) people can't actually recognise the stratospheric improvement of the United midfield, and just how well the players in there are playing to dominate games like we do, is frightening.

Our midfield is an actual, proper midfield. You know, one that passes the ball to those ahead of them, keeps the game ticking, presses the opposition and actively wins the ball back. I think it's the best, most functional midfield in the division. Schneiderlin is a big reason why.

Agreed. Based on what we've seen so far, his role clearly seems to be one that mainly concerns breaking up play and shielding the back four. Yesterday's game made that pretty obvious. What I like about him most is that besides tackling the crap out of every opposition player, he's also very strong technically. His first touch is great, he doesn't even seem to feel the pressure of players closing in on him. He's been a breath of fresh air in a team that usually excels at losing the ball in midfield.

Others feel contempt with criticizing him for not offering enough when going forward, but I think that's harsh. His role in the side means that he barely even tries to go forward. Maybe that'll change with time, and I'm confident that he'd adapt well if asked to do so.

I don't know if I'd describe our midfield as the best in the division, but it's arguably up there, and it's definitely miles ahead of anything that we've been accustomed to over the past few years.

 

[Nighteyes]

He's been a breath of fresh air in a team that usually excels at losing the ball in midfield.

Yep. What have Michael Carrick and Bastian Schweinstiger ever done but lose the ball in midfield? What would they ever know of dominating games from midfield or providing defensive protection? feck knows how they managed to be mainstays for teams that have repeatedly reached European finals in he last decade.

 

[Adisa]

He is the best DM in the league. "Bang average" pfft

 

[K2K]

That (a few) people can't actually recognise the stratospheric improvement of the United midfield, and just how well the players in there are playing to dominate games like we do, is frightening.

Our midfield is an actual, proper midfield. You know, one that passes the ball to those ahead of them, keeps the game ticking, presses the opposition and actively wins the ball back. I think it's the best, most functional midfield in the division. Schneiderlin is a big reason why.

I think he's had a massive impact on our midfield, and the biggest impact for me is how our midfield no longer gets easily overrun, especially in the big games.

Even under Fergie especially in the later years, midfield perfomances like the one against Arsenal happened frequently, where our midfield simply couldnt cope. Think of the perfomances against City and Chelsea away in 12/3, we won both but they really did dominate us badly.

They are obviously a lot of Carrick fans here, but the honest truth is that LVG gave him a chance earlier in the season , and he didnt really impress, and thats why he was dropped.

Carrick and Schneiderlin doesnt really work as we saw earlier in the season , while BFs and Carrick lack the mobility and pressing required esp against high energy midfields. For me, a Schneiderlin and BFS are our best combo, complemented by Herrera at 10, allowing him to drop into midfield and provide support.It appears that the Schmiedfield is Van Gaal's favoured combination too.

 

[Brwned]

You seem hellbent on discrediting Schneiderlin, and I'm not sure if you genuinely don't like or if you're just being contrarian. It's natural for a player like Schneiderlin to fade in games where we are in control, but he's usually key to us maintaining that control thanks to his excellent workrate and tireless running.

The games where Carrick's been on the bench and we've had a poor result haven't been the sort of games where having Carrick on would have solved anything, as Kag rightly points out. And you're vastly overrating Carrick's ability to impose himself on games (on current form, at least). And I don't think praising him for doing a good job winning the wall and for his defensive workrate is setting the bar low, given the he's primarily a defensive midfielder who was primarily bought for his abilities as such. If we're relying on him to take on the role of playmaker as well, then his midfield partner isn't doing his job.

I seriously can't wrap my head around the line of thinking that leads giving Morgan shit for not doing enough to help control the midfield when his partner is the one who's actually playing poorly. It's completely devoid of any logic.

Your only post in the Schweinsteiger-thread is praising him for his reaction after the goal, but you go out of your way to shit all over Schneiderlin. It reeks of an (and this is a word that gets thrown around a lot on here these days, and that I (personally) don't use lightly) agenda.

I can see why you think it's an agenda but you've got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't being contrarian for the sake of it, I just thought the overwhelmingly positivity in this thread after such a poor midfield performance collectively was very odd. I was in agreement with the vast majority of supporters in the summer that signing Schneiderlin is a no brainer. Coquelin and Matic are the only players that have played at a similar or higher level in the past couple of years, and Schneiderlin has sustained that form for a longer period than them both so could well be described as the best DM in the league. I think he's done a good job for us this season and I'm really happy we have him here. I just think people set the bar low for him. If we're relying on his partner to be playing well in every game just to allow us to control the midfield then we're giving Schneiderlin a very easy ride. He should be expected to step up and play the leading role in midfield when his partner is subpar. It's what all of our best midfielders have done, Carrick included - many, many times. He can do so much more.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I honestly have no idea what it is he actually does or is supposed to do aside from running around. Schweinstiger has been shit as well but he does have a good pass or two on him once in a while and I can sort of see why he's in the team. Also, for someone who's supposed to be good defensively, he gets caught out of position an awful lot. You can criticize all of Herrera/Carrick/Schweinstiger but their quality is there for all to see. Schneiderlin just looks bang average.

I think you need new glasses. I literally cannot understand how you can't see what he brings, apart from "running around".

Yes his attacking game could improve and I think the more he settles in this team he will get more risky and confident, but defensively he is fantastic. Makes so many good interceptions, tackles, and covers the ground well. The 352 formation with Mata ahead asks way too much of the centre midfielders, they basically have to help the wingback when they are being overlapped, it causes way too much confusion.

 

[Escobar]

I thought he was crucial yesterday. He did have a great game if you look at the highlights but he ensured that we never lost the physical battle or shape once Watford pressed. It was a lot of off the ball work and crucial interceptions and tackling.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Yep. What have Michael Carrick and Bastian Schweinstiger ever done but lose the ball in midfield? What would they ever know of dominating games from midfield or providing defensive protection? feck knows how they managed to be mainstays for teams that have repeatedly reached European finals in he last decade.

Putting words in someone else's mouth. That's a new one.

Have you watched any United games this season? Carrick has on many occasions lost the ball in midfield, especially when under pressure. I've always been a huge advocate for Carrick, and I still think he has a key role to play in our midfield, especially with regards to playing the ball forward. This point combined with the one that I said in my previous post are not mutually exclusive.

Don't know why you've even mentioned Basti dominating midfields in his playing career, the argument concerned Manchester United over the past few years, not Bayern Munich. Then again steaming off track is much easier than actually trying to make sense.

I honestly have no idea what it is he actually does or is supposed to do aside from running around. Schweinstiger has been shit as well but he does have a good pass or two on him once in a while and I can sort of see why he's in the team. Also, for someone who's supposed to be good defensively, he gets caught out of position an awful lot. You can criticize all of Herrera/Carrick/Schweinstiger but their quality is there for all to see. Schneiderlin just looks bang average.

Everyone has an opinion, I get that. I just think your points are way off the mark.

 

[SirAF]

He is the best DM in the league. "Bang average" pfft

It's incredible!

 

[Di Maria's angel]

He makes our backbone very strong. Along with De Gea and Smalling, they've improved our defense massively, this season.

 

[Nighteyes]

Yes his attacking game could improve and I think the more he settles in this team he will get more risky and confident, but defensively he is fantastic. Makes so many good interceptions, tackles, and covers the ground well. The 352 formation with Mata ahead asks way too much of the centre midfielders, they basically have to help the wingback when they are being overlapped, it causes way too much confusion.

I'm not talking about his attacking game. His general passing needs an improvement for a start as does his all round awareness. That's not too much to expect from the supposedly the best DM in the league. People talk about our excellent defensive record but ignore the number of times throughout the season runners have just breezed past our midfield only to be thwarted by De Gea or Smalling. And I'm not talking about yesterday's game though again he was average as usual but the season in general. Just because he runs about and puts in a few good tackles doesn't mean he's been good.

Putting words in someone else's mouth. That's a new one.
Have you watched any United games this season? Carrick has on many occasions lost the ball in midfield, especially when under pressure. I've always been a huge advocate for Carrick, and I still think he has a key role to play in our midfield, especially with regards to playing the ball forward. This point combined with the one that I said in my previous post are not mutually exclusive.

Don't know why you've even mentioned Basti dominating midfields in his playing career, the argument concerned Manchester United over the past few years, not Bayern Munich. Then again steaming off track is much easier than actually trying to make sense.

Putting words in your mouth? You said and I quote "He's been a breath of fresh air in a team that usually excels at losing the ball in midfield." In what world is that remotely true? Gross exaggeration at best and that's being kind. Carrick has not been his usual self this season but he's hardly been shit either. His performance against Liverpool was better than anything Schneiderlin has put up this season. I understand Carrick is usually the go to man when people want to have a pop at our midfield but this is getting silly.

I mentioned Schweinstiger and Carrick for a simple reason. These are two players who are not only very good defensively but are excellent with the ball as well. Yet, it's Schneiderlin's ability to not lose the ball that's been a 'breath of fresh air'.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Putting words in your mouth? You said and I quote "He's been a breath of fresh air in a team that usually excels at losing the ball in midfield." In what world is that remotely true? Gross exaggeration at best and that's being kind. Carrick has not been his usual self this season but he's hardly been shit either. His performance against Liverpool was better than anything Schneiderlin has put up this season. I understand Carrick is usually the go to man when people want to have a pop at our midfield but this is getting silly.

I mentioned Schweinstiger and Carrick for a simple reason. These are two players who are not only very good defensively but are excellent with the ball as well. Yet, it's Schneiderlin's ability to not lose the ball that's been a 'breath of fresh air'.

If you don't see the irony in your own posts then I honestly don't think there's much reason to keep at this.

I'll just say exactly what I meant once more. For me, Schneiderlin has been a breath of fresh air in a midfield that over the past few years has looked nothing like a midfield, bar Carrick (for some reason you still think I have this morbid agenda against Carrick). I don't think Carrick has been anywhere near shit this season, if anything he's the midfielder that's offered most when going forward. His ability to play accurate balls to our forward line without even looking is immense. Still, he's repeatedly lost the ball in midfield when under pressure, something that Scheiderlin has been able to handle more comfortably.

FYI I think Basti's been a breath of fresh air too.

 

[Bubz27]

Games like yesterday are exactly the types of games over the years where Carrick wouldve been criticised for being overrun (whilst he was on his own in the middle of the park).

The reality is there will always be games in the premiership when you need to roll up your sleeves and get the job done. That's what Schneiderlin did yesterday. And that's been a small criticism of Carrick, and I'm a Carrick fan, in that when the going got tough Carrick didn't always assert himself.

 

[Nighteyes]

If you don't see the irony in your own posts then I honestly don't think there's much reason to keep at this.

I'll just say exactly what I meant once more. For me, Schneiderlin has been a breath of fresh air in a midfield that over the past few years has looked nothing like a midfield, bar Carrick (for some reason you still think I have this morbid agenda against Carrick). I don't think Carrick has been anywhere near shit this season, if anything he's the midfielder that's offered most when going forward. His ability to play accurate balls to our forward line without even looking is immense. Still, he's repeatedly lost the ball in midfield when under pressure, something that Scheiderlin has been able to handle more comfortably.

FYI I think Basti's been a breath of fresh air too.

That's fair enough although I disagree with the bit in bold. It's not like Schneiderlin hasn't lost the ball in midfield at all.

IMO Schneiderlin has been massively overrated based on his performances so far. I was expecting a lot more. Maybe that will come in time as he adjusts to playing for a big club.

 

[Red4Ever]

Makes some clever fouls too
Usually just mild enough to get away without a card
He will get booked and sent off but it's great having midfield aggression
Super player

 

[Cereal Killer]

That's fair enough although I disagree with the bit in bold. It's not like Schneiderlin hasn't lost the ball in midfield at all.

IMO Schneiderlin has been massively overrated based on his performances so far. I was expecting a lot more. Maybe that will come in time as he adjusts to playing for a big club.

I know, which is why I said more comfortably and not at all.

Fair enough for the rest.

 

[Kag]

Runners doesn't breeze past our midfield at will. Certainly not on anything like a regular basis. That's fiction.

 

[Irrational.]

He's been great and has added a much needed solidity to our midfield. Arguably our best new signing alongside Martial.

Goes about his job simply and effectively.

 

[Sam]

I thought our lack of control in midfield yesterday was down to a) the ridiculous change to 3-5-2 and b) The shocking performance from Bastian

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

At 25/26, would you say he's a better player than Carrick when he was the same age?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

At 25/26, would you say he's a better player than Carrick when he was the same age?

Carrick was a far superior player, it's not even close.

I like Schneiderlin a lot - he was my number 1 pick for signing we should have made this summer - but I've not been left pretty underwhelmed by him so far. He's playing far too within himself currently.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

I think the reason some people don't appreciate him right now is more down to our style of play and the role the other midfielder alongside him is playing. I am not sure a current day Schweinsteiger is the ideal partner for him because he likes to play deep as well. I feel that if we had a box to box player like Herrera alongside him then we would probably be more attacking team but LVG tends to focus more on control. Overall though we are very secure through the middle and don't get run over much so it's silly to suggest that Schneiderlin has been bang average.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I think the reason some people don't appreciate him right now is more down to our style of play and the role the other midfielder alongside him is playing. I am not sure a current day Schweinsteiger is the ideal partner for him because he likes to play deep as well. I feel that if we had a box to box player like Herrera alongside him then we would probably be more attacking team but LVG tends to focus more on control. Overall though we are very secure through the middle and don't get run over much so it's silly to suggest that Schneiderlin has been bang average.

We have (mostly) been secure (though it's not like teams don't get onto our back four a fair bit - look at how much defending Smalling has had to do, and why he's looked so excellent this season) - but considering in the majority of the games we have the ball a lot - to expect our midfielders to be just as good on the ball as they are off it is not unreasonable, and in that regard, Schneiderlin really has not imposed himself onto games / deferred to the person next to him far too often for my liking.

 

[Geordopolous]

I honestly have no idea what it is he actually does or is supposed to do aside from running around. Schweinstiger has been shit as well but he does have a good pass or two on him once in a while and I can sort of see why he's in the team. Also, for someone who's supposed to be good defensively, he gets caught out of position an awful lot. You can criticize all of Herrera/Carrick/Schweinstiger but their quality is there for all to see. Schneiderlin just looks bang average.

He's rarely out of position, if ever

 

[Geordopolous]

We have (mostly) been secure (though it's not like teams don't get onto our back four a fair bit - look at how much defending Smalling has had to do, and why he's looked so excellent this season) - but considering in the majority of the games we have the ball a lot - to expect our midfielders to be just as good on the ball as they are off it is not unreasonable, and in that regard, Schneiderlin really has not imposed himself onto games / deferred to the person next to him far too often for my liking.

If the person next to me was bastian schweinsteiger id be deferring the ball to him a lot too. There's no point in schneiderlin trying to be something he's not, if we wanted a brilliant ball player we would have signed gundogan or we'd be playing Herrera there more often. We signed schneiderlin to break up play and solidify our team which is exactly what he's doing. That's why arsenal have coquelin, city have Fernandinho, Liverpool have Lucas and Chelsea have Matic. Every quality team needs these players and we can't criticise him for being something that he isn't.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

@Brwned I think it's pretty clear that Schneiderlin at the moment is not quite up there in terms of his quality on the ball. He's still a great addition because we haven't had his sort of tackling midfielder for awhile, and all our three in the middle being capable of defending has contributed to our defensive record, but I do agree that he doesn't put in complete performances, and plays it very safe, and could do a lot more in this regard.

But then again I've not seen much of that from him to expect it at this stage to be honest. Hopefully as he grows in his United career he starts to express himself more on the ball and take a bit more responsibility in that respect.

But overall I'm happy with his performances. Even if he's limiting his contribution to certain aspects they are important aspects and he's executing them well.

 

[NotQuiteManc]

Remember when not that long ago, United's midfield was non-existent? At least, defensively, more often than not?

I am glad United have the likes of Schmidfield now, one to break-up play and one to control/manage the midfield. So refreshing to see.

 

[Skills]

I'd like him to swap positions with Schweinsteiger, with Bastian as the quarterback in a deeper position. Schneiderlin should press forward and try to win the ball deeper in the opposition half because he's also got the legs/pace to get back quicker.

 

[DanNistelrooy]

I thought our lack of control in midfield yesterday was down to a) the ridiculous change to 3-5-2 and b) The shocking performance from Bastian

I'd agree with this. I thought Schneiderlin was good on Saturday, used the ball well too which has been my biggest criticism this season. Not been showing the quality on the ball he has at the start of the season but certainly been doing that in the past month or so.