Can’t find the piece, sure it was the Athletic, who says United didn’t try to sign him because of indecisionHow is the scouting system broken when we were in fact turned down by Kante?
Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea
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It’s not rocket science, it’s all out there
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-man-united-to-join-chelsea-20160902.amp.html
Kante himself had a call with Mourinho but opted for Chelsea because he had a good feeling about Conte
It's impossible to know what Ten Hag's thinking right now. Will he be an advanced CM? With Bruno and Erisken in that role already? And we have no one to play the 2nd CM role next to Casemiro and no back up to Casemiro?
The original point was about ETH wanting a player who could press from the front. Then the Caciedoholics tried to explain how this was also another one of Caciedo’s many hidden weapons. I was just pointing out he doesn’t play as advanced as Mount and if you was trying to identify that you wouldn’t look at his numbers and choose him over Mount. That’s when the goals and assists came in.
The original quote:
My reply was saying how Caicedo is a better upgrade for Fred than Mount, with the response:
Then you accuse me of not listening, try and claim I'm calling Caicedo an attacking midfielder, and then you try and one up me by bringing up his goal count. The reality is you've missed the point completely.
It sounds like Caicedo is on his way to the Gunners
Fred isn't someone who is good in a deeper role if the plan is to progress the ball through the thirds. Hence Fred is far more effective at defending from the front which suits his high intense play style where he can cover a lot of ground. Similar in some ways to Kante who wasn't quite good enough to play the pivot, but his defensive game was elite and his ground coverage was fantastic along with being technically good in possession. Both Fred and McTominay are not deeper lying midfielders for a team who want to play out of a well coordinated press. And neither are they good enough in possession in advanced areas of the pitch to make a difference. I think Mount's all round game is better than both and I can see both Fred and McTominay leaving in this transfer window.
Caicedo is one of the best midfielders in the league when it comes to resisting the press in the build up phase where he's utilised by De Zerbi to bait the opponent towards him to then open up a passing lane. So if we bought Caicedo, then he should be utilised in a deeper role and Mount should be utilised in a advanced role because their strengths are very different.
So I do agree that it's a critical need to sign a deeper lying midfielder, but it might not be a Rice or Caicedo and it could well turn out to be someone else. I'm hoping we move Fred, McTominay and Van de Beek on, and bring in the likes of Rabiot, Mount and another deeper lying midfielder. I remember watching Rabiot at PSG and he has the ability to play as the pivot or in a double pivot. And from what I've been reading, he's also improved a lot in the final third at Juventus.
Kone is more of a box to box midfielder and wouldn't be someone who I think we should target for a deeper role.
Absolutely, I agree with your points. Where I'm coming from is Caicedo has shown all the qualities of being able to play Fred's 'advanced' role in midfield at a more consistent level, hence why he should be seen as Fred's upgrade more so than Mount (Eriksen's upgrade). He should play deep and would do for the majority of the decade after Casemiro has left, but there will be a Fred shaped hole in midfield to fill in the competitive games next season and I trust Caicedo with that role a lot more than Mount. Ideally we'll sign both but if the choice is one or the other, considering all factors like the budget, Mount's current form and contract and leaving Chelsea in a tougher financial situation thus increasing our top 4 chances, Caicedo has to be priority.
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I'd be happy if we signed him.
Can't we just get this fella? Feck Mason Mount and pissing away a chunk on that. Just get it down on this guy. Younger, much more impressive season, can cover Casemiro and potentially play other roles. PL proven. What more would we want in a midfielder?
I'd be happier with him than Mount.. but then again.. different players.. depends on what ETH prioritizes.
Never doubted that
I’d be sick to my absolute stomach if we fully find Caicedo to Chelsea by bringing in Mount. Tired of being east to play through the middle and ceding the possession game against top teams. Caicedo and Casemiro would be sn unreal level of solidarity and i’d feel better about us getting the ball back more often and and quicker with the two of them.
Let's hope the Glazers surprise us one last time
We don't need Fred replacement, we need a partner for Casemiro and his backup. Caicedo covers both.
Just get this guy and let Eriksen & Fred play squad roles next season. I find it difficult to believe ETH wants Mount so bad - it's not that I doubt Mount quality, but I do question the idea of playing Casemiro with two attacking minded players.
Just get this guy and let Eriksen & Fred play squad roles next season. I find it difficult to believe ETH wants Mount so bad - it's not that I doubt Mount quality, but I do question the idea of playing Casemiro with two attacking minded players.
You're correct, I can't think of any players at all and my mind goes blank looking for a alternative to Frenkie de Jong. So if we could sign either Rice or Caicedo, then we should try.
Rice definitely has his strengths and is a very good player. And Caicedo brings his own qualities where he's one of the best midfielders in the league in possession against the press which is highlighted in the tweets below. But I'd be happy with either player and wouldn't mind seeing us try and sign Lavia from Southampton. These are players which can potentially address our critical needs in midfield.
Ignore the bit about De Gea.
I think the deeper lying midfielder is a critical need and I fully believe we'll address that in this window. The likes of Caicedo, Rice have been mentioned and someone like Lavia is another player who potentially provides solutions in the deeper midfield position. Erik ten Hag has always said that he wants his teams to play in the opponent's half. And the key to developing the team where they can play in the opponent's half is to control the game in possesion in the build up phase which will allow us to raise the defensive line and flood the opponent's defensive third.
And then the forwards need to control the game out of possession by pressing from the front. If your team can't do the aforementioned functions then you will suffer against teams who can do that and it will result in a lower defensive line which means that the gap between the first phase players and the attackers will be bigger hence the attackers will have to retreat and hence our play will become reactive rather than proactive. And this is the 10 year problem that needs to be solved by Erik ten Hag for us to become the dominant team that we should aspire to be imo.
The graphic below highlights why the likes of Liverpool have been successful in recent years due to their ability to disrupt the opponent's rythym by pressing high as a collective unit where the whole team pushes up in a compact high block and even the likes of Man City have struggled against them due to the volume of players they commit into the final third.
And they do that because their first phase is very strong starting with Allison in goals with the CBs, midfielders and fullbacks being good on the ball. And because their first phase players consistently play out of a press and manoeuvre the ball into the attacking third, they can raise the defensive line and the opponent thinks twice before trying to press them high. And hence they camp in the opponent's half with CBs on the half way line and the goalkeeper ready to sweep up anything between himself and the CBs. And the forwards will aggressively press the opposition upon losing possesion with both the #8s and fullbacks in support with the back line and pivot strangling the players looking to counter. And this is a Liverpool who didn't have a good season but it shows why they have been successful in recent years.
You cannot have a head coach who adheres to the positional play principles and have a keeper like De Gea starting matches. A GK needs to provide the superiority in the build up phase and compromises shouldn't be made any longer. We also need a deep lying midfielder and RB. But the GK and deeper lying midfielder is a critical need and whether it's Caicedo, Rice, Lavia or someone else, one needs to be bought to play either as the pivot or in a double pivot. I'm sure we'll sign a striker but for the system to develop we need to bring in the players who are a critical need.
That's the bit I'm contesting - we don't have a lot of money to spend this window and you seem sure that Mount is not being signed for the deeper midfield position. Current consensus is that we'll play Casemiro - Mount - Bruno.
Maybe we'll sign Lavia / Rabiot and Mount will genuinely be a #10 but it'll be a strange signing then given we're reasonably well stocked there.
Ah fair enough, ya Mount is obviously the more advanced midfielder. I was confused by the conversation. If the question was which of the 2 would be better for us in cm I think it would be Caicedo but they would ultimately have different roles.
That midfield works if the fullback inverts into midfield. So if ten Hag wanted to play a 4-3-3 it would morph into a 3-2-5 going forward due to both interiors (Bruno & Mount) pushing forward and the fullback inverting and thus creating the box shaped midfield.
The below is just a example and why I quite like Jurrien Timber.
-----------------------Sesko-------------------
--Rashford------Bruno------Mount-----Antony---
-----------Casemiro-------Timber-------------
------Shaw------Martinez--------Varane---------
----------------Costa/Verbruggen------------
Agreed. I’d love Caicedo here, just not sure he’s part of the managers main plans.
Oo I really like this and it could actually happen. You don't even need to copy the Pep-meta, you could do it with your standard inverted fullback role as City used to do it before. (Casemiro RCM and Malacia LCM).
I think Ten Hag likes Martinez in the middle so it's a bit awkward to setup if the LB inverts.
So if Chelsea play hardball over Mount price, then hopefully Utd will go in for caicedo.
How do you think this set up would get on?
-----------------------Sesko-------------------
--Rashford------Bruno------Amad-----Antony---
-----------Casemiro-------Caicedo-------------
------Shaw------Martinez--------Varane---------
----------------Costa/Verbruggen------------
I feel like Caicedo's presence behind Amad would be a game changer.
The setup is good mate.
I don’t think we’re actually interested in him
Would take that for a window!
That’s also why I’d like to see us go for Timber and I have a sneaky feeling we will. I can really see that formation and team working.
Seems he's going to arsenal
We need this fella.
My sentiment. Caicedo should be a priority for midfield well over Mount. Even if we were to somehow get both, you get this guy in first.
He could come in and be our best right back as well. I think we could do with a Mount as well, but would prefer the big fee to go on Caicedo.
Caicedo will end up at Chelsea.
Yeah I don't see him bringing in that type of player this window with all the other issues
Reports that we're asking to be 'kept informed' always strike me as essentially saying he's got a deal with another club but we're interested if that breaks down.
Yeah pretty sure it's Chelsea
What is the draw of Chelsea? I really don't get it. Horrifically bloated squad with no guarantee they'll play any better next season and no europe either.
Was the same with Enzo who could've waited until the summer to have his pick of clubs but forced his way out in Jan to them. I find it utterly bizarre. They're not exactly a prestigious historic club.
It may be a case of Arsenal having their focus on Rice and utd having their focus on Mount, giving Chelsea a free run for now. If the head honchos were thinking tactically they'd leave Chelsea in the mud by pulling out and going for Caicedo this summer, then sign Mount for free next year anyway.
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