Unlike McTominay, none of them seem to be called foul. so what is the problem?
Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea
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Unlike McTominay, none of them seem to be called foul. so what is the problem?
I remember The Athletic (or perhaps a separate piece by Mitten) touched on the Kante thing. I'm paraphrasing it because I can't remember it word for word, but the gist was that United's system at the time meant if anybody (manager, scouting head or Murtough) could black ball a transfer. One person in the system had a doubt about Kante and so United missed out. I think it's the same reason they lost out on Haaland years ago too.
He's on our list per the Telegraph report below from April. So the problem isn't the likes of Jose Mayorga (head scout) who also was the same scout who identified Caicedo when he was playing in Ecuador.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/04/09/manchester-united-transfer-news-caicedo-macallister/
Mason Mount is a advanced central midfielder and he will be utilised higher up the pitch and his signing won't stop us from signing a deeper lying CM. And the reports point to that deeper lying midfielder being a target.
I think we're going to sign Mount and Hojlund and then the rest will depend on how quickly the Glazers can come to a conclusion regarding the sale of the club.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/04/09/manchester-united-transfer-news-caicedo-macallister/
Mason Mount is a advanced central midfielder and he will be utilised higher up the pitch and his signing won't stop us from signing a deeper lying CM. And the reports point to that deeper lying midfielder being a target.
I think we're going to sign Mount and Hojlund and then the rest will depend on how quickly the Glazers can come to a conclusion regarding the sale of the club.
They’re different players in different positions though. Maybe if we played a double pivot we’d be in but it’s not as if we didn’t have a chance to sign him before and backed out. It just seems as if we don’t fancy the player
Surely it will if the takeover isn’t concluded in time?
They are different players for sure. I'm having trouble figuring out the plan for Mount tbh. Originally I thought he'd be an 8 in a midfield 3, but I've since considered the plan could be to play Bruno cm and Mount at cam, to play Bruno on rw and Mount at cam, or to play Bruno at cam and Mount at rw, maybe we'd even consider Mount for lw for some games. It's all a bit confusing when we need striker and cm sorted properly. If the idea is to play him as a cm I don't think it's a good transfer tbh, but we'll see
I'm hoping the reason we're not linked might be because we want to try for Rice first so we're waiting til after Conference Final to see if we could realistically get him instead of Arsenal. If he does opt for Arsenal as seems to be most likely according to reports, I'm hoping we'll see an increase in reports linking us with Caicedo. That's my hope anyway.
Amad could play those roles provided it’s a fixture Utd will have more possession. I just don’t see the necessity with Mount, with him being out of form and his contract expiring next year.
Been listening to Ben Jacobs have we?
Hopefully we get additional funding soon as as much as I like Rabiot I really want us to compete for Declan Rice.
If the takeover isn't completed in time then I can see us signing someone like Rabiot on a free which would be a good move. But I think with new owners in place, we'd have moved for someone like Caicedo by now due to Jose Mayorga being in a key role at the top of the scouting pyramid.
We need a GK, deeper CM, advance CM, RB, and striker, ideally. The GK, deeper CM and RB are critical needs for the system and we should at the very least try and sign the GK and deeper CM this summer. And when you have a GK who can provide the team the numerical superiority in the build up phase with a deeper CM also added to the mix, then you will have the capability as a team to play out of a press and raise the defensive line. Then the the likes of Mason Mount become very effective in the advanced right half space because the best teams are those teams who can defend high up the pitch, effectively.
Hopefully the Glazers make a decision one way or the other soon.
I'm in full agreement with what we need, I just see Caicedo solving our critical needs more than Mount, he can play 8, 6 and even as a RB. Mount should be the signing we make after the takeover is complete, not the other way around. Rabiot would probably prefer to cover Mount's role in midfield more than Caicedos too, giving him more of a reason to sign for us over other suitors. We shouldn't be trusting him with the lone 6 role.
The deeper midfielder is without a doubt a critical need. But we also need to press from the front more effectively by signing a bigger upgrade on Fred who not only matches his intensity off the ball but can also be a net positive on the ball.
And both players are needed in a EPL that is getting more technical but also more physical and athletic.
I was probably the first one on this forum to jump on the Caicedo hype train. But there's other players out there who potentially will be available and can do a similar job in midfield against the press.
I think we'll move for players but it probably does depend on when the Glazers decide to sell. That might mean we miss out on the more obvious players but instead of spending £100m on Caicedo or Rice we instead target a player who is showing hight potential in a major European league to be the player we want him to be in the build up phase.
I haven't been listening to Ben Jacobs mate.Been listening to Ben Jacobs have we?
Hopefully we get additional funding soon as as much as I like Rabiot I really want us to compete for Declan Rice.
But the news coming out today just confirms my fears about the football departments not knowing how much money they have to spend. And when you don't know what the budget is going to be in a few weeks, then it's very difficult to plan the window with the fan base then blaming the people working within the football structure.
That describes Caicedo perfectly, he's a better, more consistent version of Fred that can play as a 6 too. He's a great passer and carries the ball up the field as well as his stellar defensive work, plus he's got a fair shot on him. I don't see Mount as a replacement for Fred and we'll see the vulnerabilities if he occupies the same position as him against teams that can cause problems, he's nowhere near as good defensively.
Kone?
The thing with Caicedo is I think he’s easily replicated unlike a FDJ. So no issues with missing out on him.
What other players are you thinking of? I think there are others who can fulfil the defensive side, but I can't think of anyone who's able to combine that defensive awareness with such strong ability on the ball like Rice and Caicedo. Maybe there is someone, but Ugarte for example is a bit too limited in his passing to be a viable alternative imo (not that it matters in his case since he's going to PSG).
Which part didn't I listen to? Caicedo is a great player in possession, as explained here:
Is Kante or Essien easily replicated? If so, why haven't the half of the league signed a player as good as either?
What does it say on paper. Is he getting as many goals as Mount is his thought process to attack?He could well be the new Yaya Toure but rather not risk it for that requirement.
So he’s the new Kante now but he’s also an attacking midfielder? Make your mind up.
Last season it was Boussuma. Before that we have had Ndidi, Kessie, Haidara, Laimer, Camavinga,
There’s always a next Caicedo in terms of his profile. Ability wise yes that’s questionable for obvious reasons.
While I am a big fan of Caicedo, he's nowhere near as good as either of them, and there are no guarantees he ever will be. He is severely lacking in the attacking aspect of the game, and I think the possession argument is a bit overhyped. He is decent, but not close to De Jong, for example.
Well Caicedo's goals per 90 across his career is 0.12, Mount's goals per 90 across his career is 0.24, to say one is a defensive midfielder the other is an attacking, that's definitely not something to criticise Caicedo for and can even suggest that goalscoring is a relative strength of his. We need goals from our forwards more than our midfielders, and that has a lot more to do with the lack of productivity from our striker and right wing.
He could well be the new Yaya Toure but rather not risk it for that requirement.
We were talking about replacing Fred as the 8, is Fred an attacking midfielder? No he's a box to box. Camavinga is another fantastic talent that isn't easily replicated.
For an 8 Fred’s attacking attributes are atrocious which is why we are ‘replacing’ him.
He’s had a lot more freedom to attacking under ETH than previous managers and he’s not up to the job as it’s not natural him. Abit like when Sarri gave Kante that role.
He isn't severely lacking, he's quality at pinning the ball about, he can drive forward with the ball at his feet and he's good at shooting, all offensive qualities. He has the potential to be as good as them, all you have to do is watch how he's performed against us consistently over multiple games to see that potential.
Hence the point I made about Caicedo having offensive qualities, to which you replied I wasn't listening
This season alone
Mount: 3 goals 2 assists
Caicedo: 1 goal 1 assist
Caicedo had a very good season. Mount had a terrible one. When you factor in we are buying Mount based on what he can deliver you are looking at a GA of 15+.
This is the point I am making mate.
Hence the point I made about Caicedo having offensive qualities, to which you replied I wasn't listening
But he’s not better than Mount which is the main point.
feck me, I'm apparently the one that's not listening?
Feel free to give me your emotional/opinions only related response. I’m all ears.
Not really true tbh. Fred's attacking stats are actually very good. He's among the top 10-15% of midfielders for goals and chances created. The reason we're looking to get rid of Fred is probably more linked to his age and him only having 1 year left on his contract. Fred's pass accuracy and ability to progress the ball are moreso what's been lacking with him. Having a player like Caicedo or Rice would be an upgrade in that respect (plus they have better defensive positioning imo, whereas Fred tends to press relentlessly without thinking as much about the space behind him).
I don't really get why you're comparing Mount since they would perform different roles but if you are insisting Mount is the better attacking player, Fred has actually outperformed him in terms of attacking numbers this season
Mate you are wasting your time , the way some go about Caicedo here it's just the matter of time before he metamorph into a CAM and a forward as well .
Okay what are we actually doing here? Fred as good as his efforts were playing more advanced he doesn’t have the skill set of that of an attacking player. That is clear to see by just watching the bloke.
You said he’s out performed Mount by numbers? What numbers. Mount has more goals and the same assists and I repeat with this asterisk of Mount having a poor season by his standard. I’ve said in my post we are getting a player who can offer us 15+ GA and that’s just the EPL alone.
Fred all competitions: 6 goals, 5 assists, 11 goal involvements, 2296 total mins
Mount all competitions: 3 goals, 4 assists, 7 goal involvements, 2184 total mins
To clarify, I know Mount has had a poor season and I would hope if he's joining he improves on this season, but I think it's very ambitious to expect him to suddenly offer 15+ GA in the PL alone when he's only managed that once to this point in his career and he's coming off his worst season. I think Mount is a better player than Fred, but he's still not an exceptional attacking midfielder.
I still don't see why Mount and Caicedo's attacking contributions were being compared in the first place, since Caicedo would be much more involved in keeping a stable midfield and progressing the ball up the pitch than actually creating chances to score.
One of you seems to be looking at offensive abilities as how good the player is on the ball and how well they can progress the ball up the pitch while the other seems to only be looking at it in terms of goals and assists which might explain this strange focus on Caicedo's goal and assist numbers.
All these transfer targets are just bound to this, isn't it? Even if we get rich owner, but if this selling happens too late on the window, it's pretty much useless (as far as Summer window shopping).
hope we bring caicedo in, looks like a quality player and i think would do well in a number of positions for us, would far prefer him to a lot of people mentioned
mainoldo wouldnt be the best judge of attacking threats in the world
mainoldo wouldnt be the best judge of attacking threats in the world
Do you think bringing Mount in would mean we’re more likely to go for Rice than Caicedo ? Rice seems a bit better defensively from what I’ve seen if I was to compare Rice and Caicedo although Caicedo seems more all action and able to do more going forward.
How is the scouting system broken when we were in fact turned down by Kante?
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