Moises Caicedo | Chelsea agree £115M fee | signed for Chelsea

[Fortitude]

Well as he isn't a generational talent I wouldn't lose my sleep over it , we already have great DM and Caicedo level talent are always emerging in the Market hopefully we will find one even if we miss out on Caicedo .

This basically shows your take on the player if you think he's ten a penny and players like him are readily available. And yet only clubs making exorbitant offers (which they're doing of their own volition) stand a chance of purchasing him.

It remains to be seen what level of talent he goes on to become. He's 21-years old, which is insanely young for a CM or DM, in fact, there's far, far, far less who were at their established peak or levelled out prime at that age than were, to be talking about 'generational'. Some of the literal best in those positions of all time had done nothing like Caicedo has at the tender age of 21, and if you have a 21-year old DM or CM already at his best at that age, you're talking about a Cesc or Pedri type glitch in the matrix prodigy and certainly not the normal trajectory of even the elite in those roles.

If these talents were always emerging, we wouldn't see them constantly going for £80m plus. Tchouaméni, Rice and Caicedo are all in the same or thereabouts bracket in terms of what other clubs were willing to pay. If there were an abundance, Declan Rice for sure is not sold for £105m and West Ham wouldn't have had the leverage they do, nor would Brighton.

This denigration of Caicedo should at least make sense; people mightn't like the player, but that shouldn't belie market trends and why these valuations can be placed on the table in the first place.

 

[Matt851]

Spoken exactly like someone who doesn't realise that last season Mason Mount continued his brilliant level out of possession by being in the

- 94th percentile for tackles in midfield.
- 93rd percentile for tackles in the attacking 3rd.
- 86th percentile for dribbles stopped.
- 92nd percentile for success in tackling dribbles.
- 99th percentile for shots blocked (literally the best midfielder in the league)

Above average on passes blocked, interceptions, clearances and pressures.

That is compared to all other Premier League midfielders. Mason Mount is excellent defensively without the ball, as is Casemiro. I'll bet you good money that us getting steamrolled off the ball is not something that happens very much next season.

You probably don't watch the lad and think he's a waify little attacking midfielder which is factually absurd. In fact having a player who can do that off the ball whilst also having technical ability that Caicido could only dream of screams as to why Mason Mount should be playing at a top team looking to dominate the ball far more. Signing Caicedo is what we would have done under Jose and lived to regret it.

He may be good at pressing and harassing players but he hasn't played as an 8 much, and that will require him to play quite differently to how he has in the past. If we don't move to 433, which might be a struggle given the way Bruno plays then he would have to play in a double pivot which is a huge change from what he has done in the past

 

[Resonance]

That's true, but I wonder if we would pay 100 million for Casemiro's backup.

Pretty much this.

We're already limited to how much we have available to spend, we still need a striker and keeper and people are moaning we aren't spunking 100M on a CDM so he can sit mainly on the bench.

 

[Fortitude]

Pretty much this.

We're already limited to how much we have available to spend, we still need a striker and keeper and people are moaning we aren't spunking 100M on a CDM so he can sit mainly on the bench.

Why does it escape people that he can literally play two roles?

I'd expect he'd actually play more games than Casemiro in a season if he came here.

 

[Kag]

I’ve said as much in the Mount thread, but some of you lot are simply going to have to accept that Ten Hag doesn’t want a player like Caicedo in his ideal United midfield.

By all means take issue with it, but also try and take into account that there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Kag]

Why does it escape people that he can literally play two roles?

I'd expect he'd actually play more games than Casemiro in a season if he came here.

For somebody else, he can. Ten Hag clearly isn’t interested in him being his #8. I can also see why. I don’t think Pep would play him in that role either.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Why does it escape people that he can literally play two roles?

I'd expect he'd actually play more games than Casemiro in a season if he came here.

Yeah plus he'd enable so many tactical and formation alternatives.

 

[Bebestation]

Chelseas team look absolutely horrible bar a few individual players.

 

[MDFC Manager]

For somebody else, he can. Ten Hag clearly isn’t interested in him being his #8. I can also see why. I don’t think Pep would play him in that role either.

I don't think you can say that with certainty. Budget is likely the constraint, not a squad position.

 

[Fortitude]

For somebody else, he can. Ten Hag clearly isn’t interested in him being his #8. I can also see why. I don’t think Pep would play him in that role either.

We don't know that though do we? I suspect our hands are tied until we have our house in order and Caicedo is a massive outlay, which might well be beyond us for now. Conjecture on my part, but not far-fetched, I don't think.

If we were in Arsenal's position and could go in all guns blazing, it would be interesting to see where the window would take us - I doubt it'd have been this treading on eggshells business that we're seeing.

 

[Resonance]

Why does it escape people that he can literally play two roles?

I'd expect he'd actually play more games than Casemiro in a season if he came here.

Really? In which position, and who would he bench to take up that position? Genuinely curious.

 

[gajender]

This basically shows your take on the player if you think he's ten a penny and players like him are readily available. And yet only clubs making exorbitant offers (which they're doing of their own volition) stand a chance of purchasing him.

It remains to be seen what level of talent he goes on to become. He's 21-years old, which is insanely young for a CM or DM, in fact, there's far, far, far less who were at their established peak or levelled out prime at that age than were, to be talking about 'generational'. Some of the literal best in those positions of all time had done nothing like Caicedo has at the tender age of 21, and if you have a 21-year old DM or CM already at his best at that age, you're talking about a Cesc or Pedri type glitch in the matrix prodigy and certainly not the normal trajectory of even the elite in those roles.

If these talents were always emerging, we wouldn't see them constantly going for £80m plus. Tchouaméni, Rice and Caicedo are all in the same or thereabouts bracket in terms of what other clubs were willing to pay. If there were an abundance, Declan Rice for sure is not sold for £105m and West Ham wouldn't have had the leverage they do, nor would Brighton.

This denigration of Caicedo should at least make sense; people mightn't like the player, but that shouldn't belie market trends and why these valuations can be placed on the table in the first place.

So 3 players in last two seasons according to you , last season it was Tchouaméni who was must have couldn't be missed low and behold we got another one just a year later and Rice has been up there for quite some time as well I am quite certain we will have few more not in so distant future as well .

It's not me who is underrating Caicedo I am actually willing to concede he might become world class even but some of you are elevating him beyond is current levels and some of the projections are getting bit silly .

 

[Kag]

I don't think you can say that with certainty. Budget is likely the constraint, not a squad position.

I assume you’ve watched us over the past few months. Caicedo is quite clearly not the player that Ten Hag has in mind for that position, and I’d argue he’s well within his rights to think that.

He wants somebody like Mount in there, and he’ll have his reasons. Caicedo, while obviously very good, isn’t the same profile and won’t offer as much in those pockets of space in the opposition half.

I mean, it’s just really obvious what he wants. It’s why Eriksen plays in that role in spite of being ruined after sixty minutes. It’s why Fred barely sees the starting line up.

Again, you might not like where he’s taking the midfield. You could argue that Bruno and Mount might not work, and I’m sure you’ll make a compelling point. But this is where we are. The boss doesn’t want a Caicedo as an #8. He wants a Mount.

 

[Tarrou]

There was a time on the Caf when someone suggested we play Fred at LB and Shaw in CM. Nothing surprises me anymore.

the greatest shout was AWB as a DM

 

[JuriM]

the greatest shout was AWB as a DM

Pep would probably do it at some point.

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah plus he'd enable so many tactical and formation alternatives.

This is it for me: the enormous tactical scope with or without Casemiro in the team. We're a team who need all the tactical flexibility we can get and Caicedo is one of very few available who can provide so much of it.

This notion of him being a linear donkey and plodder simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Kag]

We don't know that though do we? I suspect our hands are tied until we have our house in order and Caicedo is a massive outlay, which might well be beyond us for now. Conjecture on my part, but not far-fetched, I don't think.

If we were in Arsenal's position and could go in all guns blazing, it would be interesting to see where the window would take us - I doubt it'd have been this treading on eggshells business that we're seeing.

We do know, though. It’s about as obvious a punch on the nose. Our midfield positions have been a constant for months now. All reports indicate that Ten Hag wants an #8, namely Mason Mount. There’s a world of difference between the two of them. You just don’t like the route he’s taking.

 

[cyberman]

We do know, though. It’s about as obvious a punch on the nose. Our midfield positions have been a constant for months now. All reports indicate that Ten Hag wants an #8, namely Mason Mount. There’s a world of difference between the two of them. You just don’t like the route he’s taking.

Exactly. Fact is that he plays in a position that doesn’t exist on our starting 11 next season.

 

[Fortitude]

So 3 players in last two seasons according to you , last season it was Tchouaméni who was must have couldn't be missed low and behold we got another one just a year later and Rice has been up there for quite some time as well I am quite certain we will have few more not in so distant future as well .

It's not me who is underrating Caicedo I am actually willing to concede he might become world class even but some of you are elevating him beyond is current levels and some of the projections are getting bit silly .

They've run concurrent alongside Camavinga for 2 years- not with a new influx propping them up, so what does that tell you? Caicedo is the only one who wasn't part of that esteemed group of most coveted open secrets, and the moment he has reached that bar, he's become a hotly contested talent who both buying and selling club know will cost a lot. Why is that?

There's no need to elevate any of the aforementioned, literally none of them are near their potential or justifying of what they went for, yet, but they are valued as such because of what they've done to this point in time, their age and obviously the potential seen in them. There isn't a finished article between the 4 of them. Clubs project in this exact manner, hence the valuations and agreement/desire to meet it.

 

[Kag]

Exactly. Fact is that he plays in a position that doesn’t exist on our starting 11 next season.

I’m amazed there’s folk who can’t see this.

Ten Hag is not playing a Casemiro-Caicedo pivot. It’s just not what he has in mind for this United midfield.

If Casemiro wasn’t part of the team then maybe things would be different, but he is, and we have Bruno, so here we are.

I’d also say the same about Declan Rice, who I think is brilliant. He isn’t what Ten Hag wants in the midfield right now, though.

 

[Fortitude]

We do know, though. It’s about as obvious a punch on the nose. Our midfield positions have been a constant for months now. All reports indicate that Ten Hag wants an #8, namely Mason Mount. There’s a world of difference between the two of them. You just don’t like the route he’s taking.

But that's not set in stone. The manager has tried a few things and what he can get in will probably determine the route he takes in the future - even by the end of this window: if he can get Kane, it's a very different approach to what we'd see with the other touted forwards.

I'm not opposed to the route taken. You could definitely say I've my doubts and reservations about Mount in the role, though.

But my take is not based on that. We're hamstrung financially and there's a big difference between Mount at £55m and Caicedo for anything north of £80m. That's a whole player (or his wages) differential and with our constraints, it should not be ruled out as a factor.

 

[Ronaldinho's snakebite]

"ManUtd is funding Caicedo transfer" should be one is the dumbest takes in the summer.

Tbf we and arsenal are more or less funding them for Caicedo. Their Saudi deals altogether is not even upto harvertz transfer fee alone.

 

[gajender]

They've run concurrent alongside Camavinga for 2 years- not with a new influx propping them up, so what does that tell you? Caicedo is the only one who wasn't part of that esteemed group of most coveted open secrets, and the moment he has reached that bar, he's become a hotly contested talent who both buying and selling club know will cost a lot. Why is that?

There's no need to elevate any of the aforementioned, literally none of them are near their potential or justifying of what they went for, yet, but they are valued as such because of what they've done to this point in time, their age and obviously the potential seen in them. There isn't a finished article between the 4 of them. Clubs project in this exact manner, hence the valuations and agreement/desire to meet it.

Which are teams hotly contesting to Sign Caicedo it's Chelsea all the way as things stand who actually tried to buy Ugarte before him and PSG who did buy him , Arsenal opted for Rice ahead of him , Bayern who were interested in Rice isn't currently sniffing around Caicedo either .

And Unless United are are actually serious about Caicedo its only Chelsea who are in the Race and please don't give me that United opted for Mount as he is cheaper because if United really want Caicedo they will find the funds even now or if they thought he was must have they would have prioritised him even at 100 m we do have form for that .

 

[Kag]

But that's not set in stone. The manager has tried a few things and what he can get in will probably determine the route he takes in the future - even by the end of this window: if he can get Kane, it's a very different approach to what we'd see with the other touted forwards.

I'm not opposed to the route taken. You could definitely say I've my doubts and reservations about Mount in the role, though.

But my take is not based on that. We're hamstrung financially and there's a big difference between Mount at £55m and Caicedo for anything north of £80m. That's a whole player (or his wages) differential and with our constraints, it should not be ruled out as a factor.

It sort of is, though, because Ten Hag is clearly desperate for Mount. And Mount will play exactly where Eriksen, and sometimes Fred, have played for the best part of a year now.

Ten Hag wants a more advanced player than Caicedo in this United set up. It’s not to say that will remain the state of play forever, but with the likes of Casemiro and Bruno already guaranteed to start more or less every time they are fit, the midfield plan is already fixed.

You seem to be suggesting that Ten Hag fancies Caicedo in the first team, but because he can’t get him he’s opting for Mount instead. I mean, that just clearly isn’t the case based on the evidence before us.

 

[Chief123]

There was a time on the Caf when someone suggested we play Fred at LB and Shaw in CM. Nothing surprises me anymore.

The classic redcafe experts. Fred LB, Martinez and Lindelof CDM, Bruno false 9, Sancho no.10, AWB at cb.

 

[SteveCoppellFan]

OK, if Caicedo does not fit into our formation for next season, what is our possible line up from midfield onwards ?

 

[Chief123]

OK, if Caicedo does not fit into our formation for next season, what is our possible line up from midfield onwards ?

Two number 8s forming a front 5 in threatening positions. This will likely be set up in most games.

Rashford NewST Antony

…..Mount……Bruno……

……….Casemiro…………

Whoever our full backs are, they’ll be expected to tuck in at times to join Casemiro as inverted full backs.

 

[Kag]

Two number 8s forming a front 5 in threatening positions. This will likely be set up in most games.

Rashford NewST Antony

…..Mount……Bruno……

……….Casemiro…………

Whoever our full backs are, they’ll be expected to tuck in at times to join Casemiro as inverted full backs.

Yep. This is what we’re clearly looking to do. Ideally, I’d like a better right back, and a Varane alternative who can drop into midfield, but beggars can’t be choosers.

You look at that set up and it’s clear to see why somebody like Mount takes precedence over Caicedo. Funds are irrelevant. It’s profile.

 

[Chief123]

Yep. This is what we’re clearly looking to do. Ideally, I’d like a better right back, and a Varane alternative who can drop into midfield, but beggars can’t be choosers.

You look at that set up and it’s clear to see why somebody like Mount takes precedence over Caicedo. Funds are irrelevant. It’s profile.

That’s why ideally I would have liked Timber for RB as he’s so comfortable on the ball that he could actually play in the midfield areas.

 

[Kag]

That’s why ideally I would have liked Timber for RB as he’s so comfortable on the ball that he could actually play in the midfield areas.

I’m really surprised we’re letting him go to Arsenal.

 

[Fortitude]

Which are teams hotly contesting to Sign Caicedo it's Chelsea all the way as things stand who actually tried to buy Ugarte before him and PSG who did buy him , Arsenal opted for Rice ahead of him , Bayern who were interested in Rice isn't currently sniffing around Caicedo either .

And Unless United are are actually serious about Caicedo its only Chelsea who are in the Race and please don't give me that United opted for Mount as he is cheaper because if United really want Caicedo they will find the funds even now or if they thought he was must have they would have prioritised him even at 100 m we do have form for that .

The difference between Rice and Caicedo is one is a DM who can slot into a back four, the other is a midfielder who can be utilised at RB, apparently. Those slightly different profiles are important at that price point. If Bayern want a DM-cum-CB, they are not going to be moving with the same fervour for both players, in fact, only one would fit their profile. And you seem to neglect that need is a prerequisite to these huge financial outlays; your question should be who needs such and such profile and who doesn’t and then run through the teams who can afford to pay these premiums for talent.

 

[Chief123]

I’m really surprised we’re letting him go to Arsenal.

I think it’s simply because we have more pressing needs at GK and striker. If ffp wasn’t an issue, we’d probably have gone for him.

 

[Marcus]

I think it’s simply because we have more pressing needs at GK and striker. If ffp wasn’t an issue, we’d probably have gone for him.

Yup absolutely this. I mean if Casemiro can stay healthy and unsuspended, honestly we need to look to GK and ST first and in that order.

 

[Oranges038]

Well as he isn't a generational talent I wouldn't lose my sleep over it , we already have great DM and Caicedo level talent are always emerging in the Market hopefully we will find one even if we miss out on Caicedo .

My thoughts on this too. These players come into the league and look good all the time, get their big move and disappear into obscurity. He's a good player but not worth the fees being touted.

 

[Kag]

I think it’s simply because we have more pressing needs at GK and striker. If ffp wasn’t an issue, we’d probably have gone for him.

Pretty much. Goalkeeper and striker, in that order. It’s a shame that a right back, Casemiro understudy and what would essentially be a replacement for Maguire look like they will have to wait.

 

[Fortitude]

It sort of is, though, because Ten Hag is clearly desperate for Mount. And Mount will play exactly where Eriksen, and sometimes Fred, have played for the best part of a year now.

Ten Hag wants a more advanced player than Caicedo in this United set up. It’s not to say that will remain the state of play forever, but with the likes of Casemiro and Bruno already guaranteed to start more or less every time they are fit, the midfield plan is already fixed.

You seem to be suggesting that Ten Hag fancies Caicedo in the first team, but because he can’t get him he’s opting for Mount instead. I mean, that just clearly isn’t the case based on the evidence before us.

In Hag’s ideal world, a Dutchman named Frenkie is taking that role who is nothing like either player. He isn’t viable so the shift is on. You think it tilts to the Mount profile; I don’t think it is an even playing field for assessment because of the massive price differential and how we have had to approach the window.

Last season is not necessarily reflective of this, as I said previously: if we can get Kane, you can throw most of these hypotheticals out and see a team restructured to optimise what we have.

Caicedo does not necessitate one single way of playing (in fact, it’s the opposite), which is an extremely common notion in this thread.

I’m not dead set on Caicedo despite championing him, nor am I averse to a dual #8 set up, but player for player, yes, Caicedo before Mount because the former services so many needs in tandem and enables us to be a lot more aggressive in attack and defence.

 

[Chief123]

As much as I’d love Caicedo, the issue I have is I do believe he is worth every penny 80-90 as a CDM. But as a midfielder in more advanced positions I’m not sure the fee would be justified. He would be great at pressing higher up the field if needed but he wouldn’t have the creativity or goal threat that Mount has.

 

[Castia]

Very good prospect but his price is absolutely insane

 

[Brightonian]

I wanted him, but that price is insane.

I do feel very nervous about going into the season with not a single good back-up to Casemiro at DM. We will absolutely be without him through injury or suspension at some point. There isn't even a youngster who might step in as emergency cover.

Busquets is on a free isn't he?

 

[gajender]

The difference between Rice and Caicedo is one is a DM who can slot into a back four, the other is a midfielder who can be utilised at RB, apparently. Those slightly different profiles are important at that price point. If Bayern want a DM-cum-CB, they are not going to be moving with the same fervour for both players, in fact, only one would fit their profile. And you seem to neglect that need is a prerequisite to these huge financial outlays; your question should be who needs such and such profile and who doesn’t and then run through the teams who can afford to pay these premiums for talent.

So Bayern wouldn't move for Caicedo who is a slightly different profile than the DM they were chasing but still a DM nonetheless but Arsenal it seem did exactly that and even paid greater fee than they were ready to pay for Caicedo .

And you can understand Bayern making that choice due to huge outlay involved but Want United to pull the trigger despite having similar concern about his suitability I don't get it .