Middle East Politics

Synco said:
Post-Holocaust antisemitism has the problem that it has been utterly disgraced by the Nazi genocide, and placed under a strong taboo as a consequence - at least in the (wider) Western world. Yet the basic social conditions that have produced antisemitism in the past still exist. So you have loads of people whose attitude towards Jews ranges from irrational dislike to projective hatred, but they don't have a socially acceptable way to act out on it. The open Jew-haters will target Israel anyway. The vast majority who have the urge to keep a more respectable profile will engage in "criticism of Israel".

Decoupling the phenomenon of the remarkable public fixation on Israel from antisemitism is something that doesn't make sense under these conditions. Whoever is serious about opposition to antisemitism will have to face this reality, and the power these resentments have over widespread perceptions of the ME conflict. Most who understand themselves as being "critical of Israel" are still short of making even the first step in dealing with this reality: acknowledging it exists.
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1. That is certainly true or some of them. But there are many personally or politically anti-Semitic people who have no problem in allying with Israel. Reagan and Nixon are famous examples, but you can find many in today's European right.
And it is quite easy to show that support for Israel is the criteria by which one's anti-semitism is judged. For example, whatever Corbyn is alleged to have said compeltely pales in comparison to this:
Mr Netanyahu insisted Adolf Hitler had only wanted to expel Jews from Europe, but that Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini told him: "Burn them."
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This is literal Hitler apologism from the Zionist leader (source). There are also the Soros octopus memes posted by his son. I don't know how much more blatant it can get.
Yet, while Chomsky and others are routinely called "self-hating", even the thought of using that phrase for Netanyahu is blasphemy. Which to me suggests that the mainstream view of anti-semitism is indeed support or opposition to Zionism.

2. That is why I don't see any way forward in the Israel-Palestine conflict at all. A one-state solution will probably mean Jewish genocide. A 2-state solution has been made impossible by settlements. So the only logical outcome to solve the conflict is Palestinian genocide, or, the displacement and/or murder of the descendants of many of the Arabs living on the land currently occupied by Israel.
 
berbatrick said:
1. That is certainly true or some of them. But there are many personally or politically anti-Semitic people who have no problem in allying with Israel. Reagan and Nixon are famous examples, but you can find many in today's European right.
And it is quite easy to show that support for Israel is the criteria by which one's anti-semitism is judged. For example, whatever Corbyn is alleged to have said compeltely pales in comparison to this:

This is literal Hitler apologism from the Zionist leader (source). There are also the Soros octopus memes posted by his son. I don't know how much more blatant it can get.
Yet, while Chomsky and others are routinely called "self-hating", even the thought of using that phrase for Netanyahu is blasphemy. Which to me suggests that the mainstream view of anti-semitism is indeed support or opposition to Zionism.

2. That is why I don't see any way forward in the Israel-Palestine conflict at all. A one-state solution will probably mean Jewish genocide. A 2-state solution has been made impossible by settlements. So the only logical outcome to solve the conflict is Palestinian genocide, or, the displacement and/or murder of the descendants of many of the Arabs living on the land currently occupied by Israel.
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Doing business with antisemites is part of the reality of diplomacy Israel has to face. If Israel is ever going to reach peace agreements with its neighbors, it'll have to do so by normalizing relations with antisemites - that was the reality of dealing with Anwar Sadat and Mahmoud Abbas, two quite notorious antisemites.

No excuses for the Netanyahus though, whatever about the son, the PM's comments on the Mufti were a disgrace and received as such across Israel.

Not sure how your point 1 relates to point 2 though?
 
One wonders if all that focus on apartheid South Africa was due to rampant anti whiteism or anti Europeanism
 
2cents said:
Doing business with antisemites is part of the reality of diplomacy Israel has to face. If Israel is ever going to reach peace agreements with its neighbors, it'll have to do so by normalizing relations with antisemites - that was the reality of dealing with Anwar Sadat and Mahmoud Abbas, two quite notorious antisemites.

No excuses for the Netanyahus though, whatever about the son, the PM's comments on the Mufti were a disgrace and received as such across Israel.

Not sure how your point 1 relates to point 2 though?
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I was responding to a post that said it is difficut or impossible to separate anti-semitism from opposition to Zionism. As your own post shows, the Israeli govt can do that quite easily (going the other way, looking for pro-Zionists regardless of their anti-Semitism). So that theoretical difference is possible.

Btw, this is what his son posted:


Yes, the 2 parts of my post are unliked (I was replying separately to the 2 different sentences I had bolded).
 
berbatrick said:
I was responding to a post that said it is difficut or impossible to separate anti-semitism from opposition to Zionism. As your own post shows, the Israeli govt can do that quite easily (going the other way, looking for pro-Zionists regardless of their anti-Semitism). So that theoretical difference is possible
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I don't think the examples either of us used necessarily say anything about these peoples' antisemitism or attitude towards Zionism. Did Anwar Sadat really see the light after a lifetime of antisemitism and anti-Zionism? Or did the particular circumstances he found himself in in the 70s dictate that these principles he'd clung to through the decades become subordinate to the more important matter of Egyptian state interests, as he perceived them? A willingness to do business with Israel really needn't indicate "support for Zionism" at all.
 
berbatrick said:
1. That is certainly true or some of them. But there are many personally or politically anti-Semitic people who have no problem in allying with Israel. Reagan and Nixon are famous examples, but you can find many in today's European right.
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But they weren't actually open Jew-haters, they were closet antisemites (never heard that about Reagan, but I believe you there). I was talking about the Nazi/Islamist/conspiracy nutter type of Jew-haters, those who have no qualms with breaching the taboo on open antisemitism in public.

The phenomenon of pro-Israel antisemites you describe definitely exists (certain authoritarian right wingers, or some Christian fundamentalists for example) - that's why I talked about "the vast majority" of wannabe-respectable antisemites focusing on Israel, not "every one of them". But the vast majority they most certainly are, despite some notable exceptions.

berbatrick said:
I was responding to a post that said it is difficut or impossible to separate anti-semitism from opposition to Zionism.
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The term used in that post was "strong criticism of Israel". The matter of Zionism and anti-Zionism is even more complex, so I solely focus on the quoted term.

If I haven't grossly misunderstood, it was implied in that post that the coupling of criticism of Israel and antisemitism is mainly done by those who publicly defend Israel, in an attempt to denounce the critics and prevent the criticism. It must therefore be demanded from those who claim to criticize antisemitism to decouple these two things.

I have replied that a connection between criticism of Israel and antisemitism isn't a hallucination or a mere tactic by people with a pro-Israel stance (although the latter exists too). It is a social fact, since criticism of Israel is often the only acceptable way to vent suppressed or unconscious aggression against Jews in public. It must therefore be demanded from those who claim to criticize Israel while opposing antisemitism to relate to this problem in a serious manner.

This should really be self-evident and no big deal at all. Just as it should be no problem for anyone who criticizes Islamism or bigotry among Muslims to see the need to relate to the widespread anti-Muslim racism and xenophobic paranoia in a realistic way. And, importantly, to not shape his or her criticism along the stereotypes and distortions prevalent in these stances.

I finally stated many critics of Israel don't even acknowledge this problem of covert antisemitism, and perceive the insistence on its existence and importance as a hostile act. I don't think I need to say much about the implications of such a stance. I haven't yet got on to the frequent disinterest in/downplaying of even open antisemitism among many Israel critics, but I leave that out for now and concentrate on this one aspect.

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The above-written is to clarify what I have meant to say in the post you quoted. I still find it difficult to understand how the things you replied (including the part on the Netanyahus) exactly relate to this. Perhaps you could clarify as well.
 
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Synco said:
But they weren't actually open Jew-haters, they were closet antisemites (never heard that about Reagan, but I believe you there). I was talking about the Nazi/Islamist/conspiracy nutter type of Jew-haters, those who have no qualms with breaching the taboo on open antisemitism in public.

The phenomenon of pro-Israel antisemites you describe definitely exists (certain authoritarian right wingers, or some Christian fundamentalists for example) - that's why I talked about "the vast majority" of wannabe-respectable antisemites focusing on Israel, not "every one of them". But the vast majority they most certainly are, despite some notable exceptions.


The term used in that post was "strong criticism of Israel". The matter of Zionism and anti-Zionism is even more complex, so I solely focus on the quoted term.

If I haven't grossly misunderstood, it was implied in that post that the coupling of criticism of Israel and antisemitism is mainly done by those who publicly defend Israel, in an attempt to denounce the critics and prevent the criticism. It must therefore be demanded from those who claim to criticize antisemitism to decouple these two things.

I have replied that a connection between criticism of Israel and antisemitism isn't a hallucination or a mere tactic by people with a pro-Israel stance (although the latter exists too). It is a social fact, since criticism of Israel is often the only acceptable way to vent suppressed or unconscious aggression against Jews in public. It must therefore be demanded from those who claim to criticize Israel while opposing antisemitism to relate to this problem in a serious manner.

This should really be self-evident and no big deal at all. Just as it should be no problem for anyone who criticizes Islamism or bigotry among Muslims to see the need to relate to the widespread anti-Muslim racism and xenophobic paranoia in a realistic way. And, importantly, to not shape his or her criticism along the stereotypes and distortions prevalent in these stances.

I finally stated many critics of Israel don't even acknowledge this problem of covert antisemitism, and perceive the insistence on its existence and importance as a hostile act. I don't think I need to say much about the implications of such a stance. I haven't yet got on to the frequent disinterest in/downplaying of even open antisemitism among many Israel critics, but I leave that out for now and concentrate on this one aspect.

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The above-written is to clarify what I have meant to say in the post you quoted. I still find it difficult to understand how the things you replied (including the part on the Netanyahus) exactly relate to this. Perhaps you could clarify as well.
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I understood your post as saying that it is impossible to separate anti-Semitism from anti-Israel attitudes since that is now the acceptable face of anti-semitism. I countered that the mirror image (ignoring anti-Sem attitudes among pro-Israel politicians) is an accepted practice, so it makes sense that it can go the other way too.

Anyway I decided to do some research and found this report.

One of the most publicised takeaways from this report was along the lines you are suggesting:
Dave Rich, deputy director of communications at the Community Security Trust, which supported the study, underlines the importance of the results.

“The finding that people who are strongly anti-Israel are also more likely to be anti-Semitic might seem obvious to some, but this is the first time it has been statistically proven,” says Rich.
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/devas...of-britons-agree-with-anti-israel-statements/

This is the graph from which most of these conclusions have been made - it is quite clear.

But a little deeper inside the report are cross-tabs showing where exactly the anti-Semitism and anti-Israeli attitudes overlap.

RiB4inB.png

It show quite clearly the the left, with very strong anti-Israel attitudes (much stronger than the far-right) has average or below-average levels of anti-Semitism, while the anti-Semitism is concentrated within "fairly" and "very" right-wing people.
So it appears that it is a reality that (at least in the UK), a leftist anti-Israeli attitude can co-exist with the baseline level of anti-Semitism. Now of course, those baseline levels are a problem. And there's a correlation between both attitude as shown in the previous figure. But this is an equally valid and important finding, about the separability of those attitudes.
 
berbatrick said:
I understood your post as saying that it is impossible to separate anti-Semitism from anti-Israel attitudes since that is now the acceptable face of anti-semitism. I countered that the mirror image (ignoring anti-Sem attitudes among pro-Israel politicians) is an accepted practice, so it makes sense that it can go the other way too.
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Seems there has been a misunderstanding then, because saying antisemitism and anti-Israel attitudes "can't be simply treated as seperate things" (my actual wording) can mean two things:

1. they aren't always something entirely different (it then would still be needed to determine how weak or strong the links are)
2. they are always the same

My argument was along the first line: it's impossible to seperate them in the sense of "having nothing to do with each other" (an often heard claim). What that doesn't mean is that it's impossible to distinguish between them when it comes to individual cases.

Your argument by means of episodic evidence (highlighting individual cases) would be a logically valid counter if I said they are the same in every case. It is directed against the second meaning, so it doesn't really connect. I guess that's where my confusion came from.

But I think it's been cleared up by now, and the rest your most recent post is exactly about what I meant to say.
 
Silva said:
He also quoted stats showing that generally pro-Isreal groups have higher incidences of anti-semitism than generally pro-Palestine groups.
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In the graph? Could you point out where?
 
Silva said:
uh, the whole thing
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Perhaps the people summarized by political affiliations don't constitute homogenic groups? And there may be a correlation of those with anti-Jewish and anti-Israel attitudes within each group?

(I haven't read the full report, so I can't say what the findings on this are. But since you don't seem to be inclined to give away much of your reasoning I have to start somewhere.)
 
Silva said:
If there were clear and obvious links between anti-Isreal politics and antisemitism the stats would back it.
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Synco said:
Perhaps the people summarized by political affiliations don't constitute homogenic groups? And there may be a correlation of those with anti-Jewish and anti-Israel attitudes within each group?
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The major correlation antisemites have is with other forms of xenophobia, in that the more right wing someone is the more likely they are to not only hold antisemitic views, but also be ignorant of other races. Case in point, see the windrush generation thread.
 
berbatrick said:
RiB4inB.png
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New poll, tangentially related and in contradiction to the graph in the spoiler above:

The poll asked a weighted sample of more than 1,500 people to what extent, if at all, they believed four parties had “a problem with racism and/or religious prejudice”.

For Labour, almost a fifth of people, 19 per cent, said the party had a “considerable problem”, while 21 per cent said it had “somewhat” of a problem and a further 21 per cent, a “small” problem.

It means a total of 61 per cent of people thought the party had a problem with racism and/or religious prejudice to some degree, with 12 per cent saying it had no problem at all and 27 per cent saying they did not know.

Of the other parties, only Ukip scored worse, with a total of 67 per cent of people believing it had some degree of problem.

When it came to the Conservatives, those believing the party had some degree of problem amounted to 55 per cent – with 11 per cent believing it to be “considerable”, 20 per cent saying it had “somewhat” of a problem and 24 per cent saying it had a small one. Some 17 per cent said the Tories had no problem and, 28 per cent did not know.
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Given that
a. Left anti-semitism is equal or lower than slightly, fairly, and very right-wing anti-semitism (as proven by that spoiler above)
b. There is no universe where left Islamophobia or plain racism compares with the right or even centre.
The public image of Labour and Conservatives is inverted with respect to the reality of both parties.
 
@Silva
Having read a bit in the study now, I give it one more try.

Silva said:
If there were clear and obvious links between anti-Isreal politics and antisemitism the stats would back it.
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I've been preoccupied with your preoccupation on the left-right scheme, so I've overlooked that you seem to have missed one of the main findings of the study: That there are indeed clear and obvious links between antisemitism and anti-Israel attitudes in Britain.

That's what @berbatrick himself referred to in his post and what the table he linked above the spoiler shows.

Based on this approach, we find that the existence of an association between the antisemitic and the anti-Israel attitudes tested, is unambiguous (Table 1). Reading the table vertically, comparing the columns, one can see that the stronger the anti-Israel opinion, the higher the percentage of people with antisemitic attitudes.

Respondents who are completely free of any trace of anti-Israel opinion, scoring zero on the AI index, show very low levels of antisemitic opinion: 86% of respondents who score zero on the anti-Israel index also score zero on the antisemitism index (top left quadrant shaded in deep blue). High levels of antisemitism (for example, scores of 5-8 on the antisemitism index) are practically non-existent in this group. In contrast, only about 20-30% of respondents exhibiting high levels of anti-Israel attitudes (those who score 6-9 on the AI index) score zero on antisemitic attitudes (top right-hand quadrants).

(p. 33-35)
tab%201_zpscxe2n6t5.jpg
fig%2016_zpsezakkizf.jpg

Silva said:
He also quoted stats showing that generally pro-Isreal groups have higher incidences of anti-semitism than generally pro-Palestine groups.
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According to the study, the opposite is true: the stronger the antipathy towards Israel, the higher the probability of antisemitic attitudes. And vice versa.

A clear majority of the British population is not antisemitic in any way. However, the greater the level of antipathy towards Israel, the more likely they are to register on the antisemitism index; indeed, of those scoring four or more on the anti-Israel index, it is more likely than not that they hold some antipathy towards Jews.

In short, we find that, in the population as a whole, there is a three in ten chance that an individual selected at random would hold some level of antisemitic sentiment. Among those who hold no antipathy towards Israel, that would drop to just over one in ten. However, among those holding the strongest level of anti-Israel views (7 to 9 on the anti-Israel index), that possibility climbs to over seven in ten.

(p. 35)
fig%2017_zpse6k1sxpr.jpg

(Not that I think poll-based surveys are the be-all and end-all regarding this issue, but this one was brought up, so...)
 
I can believe that that, but it's quite a ways off this
Synco said:
Decoupling the phenomenon of the remarkable public fixation on Israel from antisemitism is something that doesn't make sense under these conditions. Whoever is serious about opposition to antisemitism will have to face this reality, and the power these resentments have over widespread perceptions of the ME conflict. Most who understand themselves as being "critical of Israel" are still short of making even the first step in dealing with this reality: acknowledging it exists.
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Synco said:
The problem is that these can't be simply treated as seperate things - as if the absolute majority of people with antisemitic leanings (or the full-blown nutters) wouldn't be obsessive about Israel.
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as is evident by your data managing to quantify it quite easily, even with the nutters having minor disagreements with each other
 
@Silva
There may have been the same misunderstanding I suspect I had with berbatrick; I tried to decipher it further above:
Synco said:
Seems there has been a misunderstanding then, because saying antisemitism and anti-Israel attitudes "can't be simply treated as seperate things" (my actual wording) can mean two things:

1. they aren't always something entirely different (it then would still be needed to determine how weak or strong the links are)
2. they are always the same

My argument was along the first line: it's impossible to seperate them in the sense of "having nothing to do with each other" (an often heard claim). What that doesn't mean is that it's impossible to distinguish between them when it comes to individual cases.
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So my point was a very basic one: There is a kind of covert antisemitism directed against Israel at all, and not in insignificant quantity. That has to be acknowledged and taken into account when discussing the issue. To which extent that exists, how it works, etc. must then be subject to further discussion.
 
Long report on everything to do with the escalating Israel-Iran crisis over Syria:

Israel, Hizbollah and Iran: Preventing Another War in Syria
Facts on the ground in Syria are defining the contours of the country’s political future and also the geography of a looming clash between Israel, Hizbollah and other Iran-allied militias. Russia should broker understandings to prevent a new front from opening.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/middle-...zbollah-and-iran-preventing-another-war-syria
 
Wahhabi crazies not content with the more moderate line?

Fecking pest Wahhabism is.
 


Obviously I don't read Hebrew but google translate matches what I read about it, and none of the replies seem to be disputing it:
Brig. Gen. (ret.) Zvika Fogel on the network here: Anyone who approaches the fence in order to check, for example, whether there are dead areas will be sentenced to death!
Ron Nisiel Interviewer: Even if it is an unarmed child? Vogel: Yes, even if it's a child.
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I did google his name (Zvika Fogel Brig General) and he has been quoted on news stories earlier, so as far as I can tell it is legit.



This is another one, less verification required since the MK tweeted his views directly, and again google translate matches the tweet.
...

Liberman hails US decision to drop ‘occupied’ from West Bank terminology
Defense minister says State Department telling the truth, as new document refers only to 'Israel, Golan Heights, West Bank, and Gaza,' with no comment on status of the territories
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liber...-to-drop-occupied-from-west-bank-terminology/
 
Raoul said:
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On one hand MBS criticises the Palestinians for not taking opportunity after opportunity for peace. On the other hand, MBS says normalising relations with Israel would require significant progress on the Palestinian-Israeli peace process. I can't reconcile those contradictory statements.
 
Chairman Woodie said:
On one hand MBS criticises the Palestinians for not taking opportunity after opportunity for peace. On the other hand, MBS says normalising relations with Israel would require significant progress on the Palestinian-Israeli peace process. I can't reconcile those contradictory statements.
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With the latter he’s just probably just trying to save face. Make no mistake, MBS and the Saudis care nothing for the Palestinians and would happily throw them under the bus if it appeases his orange mate and their anti-Iranian circle jerk. Being candid about it is probably out of the question considering the incenseful response it would provoke in the Arab world.
 
Kaos said:
With the latter he’s just probably just trying to save face. Make no mistake, MBS and the Saudis care nothing for the Palestinians and would happily throw them under the bus if it appeases his orange mate and their anti-Iranian circle jerk. Being candid about it is probably out of the question considering the incenseful response it would provoke in the Arab world.
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I don't think it's fair to use the blanket statement "Saudis". For sure the ibn Saud family don't give 2 shits about the Palestinians but I'm sure a sizeable number of citizens sympathise with the Palestinians than see the Iranians as the main enemy .
 
SwansonsTache said:
Wahhabi crazies not content with the more moderate line?

Fecking pest Wahhabism is.
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Don’t let this western charm offensive fool you, MBS is yet another deceitful face of the same wahabist empowered Saudi theocracy. Hosting wrestlemania and arresting a few theocrats doesn’t change any of that.
 
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