Michael McIntyre vs Stewart Lee

Chabon said:
There are an awful lot of people who seem completely unable sit back and say "I don't really like Stewart Lee" like they would with most other things, but instead simply have to trot out lines about him being "smug" or "arrogant", and his fans not really finding him funny but instead putting on some show to prove how high-brow they are, via their taste in comedians. To be frank, when I want to pretend to be intelligent I talk about my taste in philosophy or opera, but maybe I'm just missing a trick and stand-up is the real indicator of high culture. I'm annoyed you lot ran the chairty gigs joke into the ground, I really wanted in on it...
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I think anything where people are told they don't get it because they're not clever enough triggers defensive mechanisms. I'll be honest with people and tell them that they just might not have enough of an understanding of music and of what's going on to appreciate jazz as opposed to the pop or whatever they usually lap up. They'll roll their eyes and think me an elitist, or they'll be defensive and get loud about how people are prolly just nodding their heads to this shit to be perceived as part of the clever in-crowd... I think the same sort of thing is going on here.

Let me just say that when I say "not clever enough", I don't mean as a whole... I mean with regards to how they perceive comedy. I might not perceive Rooney as what seems to be a clever person by my definitions, but boy is he a genius on the field in the way that he reads the game and brings himself and others into play. Idiot savants may play brilliantly on classical instruments yet not be able to follow a conversation. I am in no way trying to rubbish people outright, we all have our talents and I'm incompetent in a fair few areas myself, of that I'm sure.
 
Eriku said:
Pedantic semantics... When people say what you said, they usually mean "from this sample I gather it's not worth my time". If you really meant "if" like you say, and are going to have a go at getting to like Stewart Lee and looking up more of his material, then fair play... If not then you've effectively done what I thought you to mean by that sentence, you've made a judgement call based on a tiny sample from a second-hand source.

That's all I meant.
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So you got yourself all in a bluster about something you think I said. You seem to be upset that I may do something you've admitted to doing yourself. Not giving someone you didn't find funny a second chance. Peculiar behaviour. How often have you watched McIntyre?
 
acnumber9 said:
So you got yourself all in a bluster about something you think I said. You seem to be upset that I may do something you've admitted to doing yourself. Not giving someone you didn't find funny a second chance. Peculiar behaviour. How often have you watched McIntyre?
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Listen, language is short-hand... if we were to specify everything we meant and how we meant it we'd need intonation, stress and other things to come through, plus we'd need a shitload of asterisks directing your attention to elaboratioins on intent and implication and whatnot. How I read your sentence is how most people would read it, and you'll see that the guy I was paraphrasing you to took my point the same way after I'd clarified it to him, as well as wondering why he didn't upon first reading himself.

Secondly, I said I'd pay attention to things that might point to there being a subtext and nuance in the show, if not then I'd prolly not give it another chance. What with McIntyre being so big in the UK I've not been able to avoid him when I was studying there, and when I got home, lo and behold, he's on the telly with his roadshow there as well. I've seen plenty of him and I don't find him clever, funny or worth my time as a viewer.

Then again, I'm a fan of thinking when it comes to humour... which you've already stated an aversion to... so little wonder that our sense of humour has little overlap.
 
right you goofballs, I used to have links to the full episodes of his last series (series 2 of the comedy vehicle) and I'm being a bit thick here and can't find them .... anyone got them? I'm sure they were on youtube
 
Chabon said:
There are an awful lot of people who seem completely unable sit back and say "I don't really like Stewart Lee" like they would with most other things, but instead simply have to trot out lines about him being "smug" or "arrogant", and his fans not really finding him funny but instead putting on some show to prove how high-brow they are, via their taste in comedians. To be frank, when I want to pretend to be intelligent I talk about my taste in philosophy or opera, but maybe I'm just missing a trick and stand-up is the real indicator of high culture. I'm annoyed you lot ran the chairty gigs joke into the ground, I really wanted in on it...
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I never said his fans didn't find him funny, I said that in my experience lots seem very self congratulatiry about finding him funny.

I get it, I just don't find it that funny.
 
T'is all about taste, I like Lee and some old Hicks, Eddie Murphy, Pryor etc but I'd still watch Daire O'Briain or Sean Lock if they were on the telly. I think the perception among most is that a Lee fan would instantaneously turn off at the sight of Daire's' over-sized noggin.

Basically, you don't have to be stuck in an either/or type situation.
 
Eriku said:
"Either a librarian is funny, or he isn't... and he isn't a funny librarian"
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Yeah, as much as I like Stewart Lee, that routine really underwhelmed me. He's basically just replaced the word 'comedian' with 'librarian'. Meh. Not his best work.
 
Lock is great. That 15 stories high is amazing, I can't believe it was so far under the radar.
 
Mick1991 said:
T'is all about taste, I like Lee and some old Hicks, Eddie Murphy, Pryor etc but I'd still watch Daire O'Briain or Sean Lock if they were on the telly. I think the perception among most is that a Lee fan would instantaneously turn off at the sight of Daire's' over-sized noggin.

Basically, you don't have to be stuck in an either/or type situation.
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Sean Lock is great. One of the only guys who is actually funny on all those panel shows.
 
Chabon said:
There are an awful lot of people who seem completely unable sit back and say "I don't really like Stewart Lee" like they would with most other things, but instead simply have to trot out lines about him being "smug" or "arrogant", and his fans not really finding him funny but instead putting on some show to prove how high-brow they are, via their taste in comedians. To be frank, when I want to pretend to be intelligent I talk about my taste in philosophy or opera, but maybe I'm just missing a trick and stand-up is the real indicator of high culture. I'm annoyed you lot ran the chairty gigs joke into the ground, I really wanted in on it...
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As regards his fans, I have no opinion. I guess people just like him because he makes them laugh. Liking something to appear intelligent makes you (not you personally) a bit of a cnut. Likewise taking the view that someone isn't intelligent/cultured/whatever enough to appreciate (or even just like) something - let alone something like a stand up comedian's work - is arrogant, IMO.

But people are perfectly entitled to say what they don't like about him, whether that's a perceived smugness or arrogance or otherwise. If someone posted a bare "I don't like him" we'd have people questioning their reasoning behind it. Comedy is entirely subjective.
 
Brophs said:
As regards his fans, I have no opinion. I guess people just like him because he makes them laugh. Liking something to appear intelligent makes you (not you personally) a bit of a cnut. Likewise taking the view that someone isn't intelligent/cultured/whatever enough to appreciate (or even just like) something - let alone something like a stand up comedian's work - is arrogant, IMO.

But people are perfectly entitled to say what they don't like about him, whether that's a perceived smugness or arrogance or otherwise. If someone posted a bare "I don't like him" we'd have people questioning their reasoning behind it. Comedy is entirely subjective.
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But would that mean that anybody in principle can fathom or get anything? That's just patently not true. Let's remove the matter of taste out of the equation and point to, for example, football... I know that I, at first, didn't have the appreciation I ought to have for the ball being stroked around patiently rather than it being punted forward towards the goal. I was unsophisticated in my view of football, thinking it's boring when the team retains it rather than just having at the first and best chance they can get. Could you really not claim that anybody with such a view of football to be uncultured or to be somewhat oblivious as to what's needed in order to win a game of football?

I reckon the same principles can be applied. Not saying this would be the only reason for someone to disagree on the matter of Stewart Lee, by all means... but that it may indeed be the case and that it might not be me being an arrogant cnut by saying this.
 
Eriku said:
But would that mean that anybody in principle can fathom or get anything? That's just patently not true. Let's remove the matter of taste out of the equation and point to, for example, football... I know that I, at first, didn't have the appreciation I ought to have for the ball being stroked around patiently rather than it being punted forward towards the goal. I was unsophisticated in my view of football, thinking it's boring when the team retains it rather than just having at the first and best chance they can get. Could you really not claim that anybody with such a view of football to be uncultured or to be somewhat oblivious as to what's needed in order to win a game of football?

I reckon the same principles can be applied. Not saying this would be the only reason for someone to disagree on the matter of Stewart Lee, by all means... but that it may indeed be the case and that it might not be me being an arrogant cnut by saying this.
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That wasn't the point I was making at all. I'm simply saying that taking the view that people don't like something because they don't get it is simply playing to your own agenda. Of course there will be people who don't get it. But deciding that without reason to do so or solely on the basis of them not liking someone's work is an attempt to discount taste or preference and introduce objectivity into what are personal opinions on comedy.

Again, IMHO obviously.
 
Brophs said:
That wasn't the point I was making at all. I'm simply saying that taking the view that people don't like something because they don't get it is simply playing to your own agenda. Of course there will be people who don't get it. But deciding that without reason to do so or solely on the basis of them not liking someone's work is an attempt to discount taste or preference and introduce objectivity into what are personal opinions on comedy.

Again, IMHO obviously.
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My bad, I should've known better than to assume you meant it as a blanket statement :nervous:
 
Stewart Lee is obviously an acquired taste, not least because he does try to do something very different with his work. If you just happen to not like what he's doing then of course that’s fair enough. And as, despite all pretensions, he is a comedian, if he doesn’t make you laugh, then of course you’re not going to like his work. And why should you, he’s a fecking comedian, he can strive to be the Foucault of clowns all he wants, he still needs to be a decent clown.

There are, however, a lot of people who, in addition to not finding Stewart Lee funny, very clearly don't understand what it is he’s trying to do, and a lot of the time those are the most vocal of his critics. If you don’t like his work but do understand what it’s meant to be, I don’t see why you’d feel the need to justify it with (laughable) suggestions of Lee being ‘smug’ or ‘arrogant’. The most ridiculous of course is the people who argue that fans of Lee are merely pretending to like him to make themselves feel/look better, and in doing are ironically doing the exact same thing by expressing their dislike in artificially populist and self-regarding ways.

There’s something to be said here in relation to the way people attack McIntyre, who I’m no fan of, but if you can’t see why people like him then you, amusingly enough, don’t 'get' him and what it is he's doing.
 
Eriku said:
Listen, language is short-hand... if we were to specify everything we meant and how we meant it we'd need intonation, stress and other things to come through, plus we'd need a shitload of asterisks directing your attention to elaboratioins on intent and implication and whatnot. How I read your sentence is how most people would read it, and you'll see that the guy I was paraphrasing you to took my point the same way after I'd clarified it to him, as well as wondering why he didn't upon first reading himself.

Secondly, I said I'd pay attention to things that might point to there being a subtext and nuance in the show, if not then I'd prolly not give it another chance. What with McIntyre being so big in the UK I've not been able to avoid him when I was studying there, and when I got home, lo and behold, he's on the telly with his roadshow there as well. I've seen plenty of him and I don't find him clever, funny or worth my time as a viewer.

Then again, I'm a fan of thinking when it comes to humour... which you've already stated an aversion to... so little wonder that our sense of humour has little overlap.
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You've done little to dispel the notion of Stewart Lee fans being pompous and considering themselves fans of a higher plane of comedy. In reality you know nothing about my tastes but jump to an assumption I don't like clever comedy just because I haven't found Lee funny. Well done on being such an idiot.
 
Chabon said:
There are an awful lot of people who seem completely unable sit back and say "I don't really like Stewart Lee" like they would with most other things, but instead simply have to trot out lines about him being "smug" or "arrogant", and his fans not really finding him funny but instead putting on some show to prove how high-brow they are, via their taste in comedians. To be frank, when I want to pretend to be intelligent I talk about my taste in philosophy or opera, but maybe I'm just missing a trick and stand-up is the real indicator of high culture. I'm annoyed you lot ran the chairty gigs joke into the ground, I really wanted in on it...
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So you're not allowed to dislike someone because they're smug?
 
Brophs said:
As regards his fans, I have no opinion. I guess people just like him because he makes them laugh. Liking something to appear intelligent makes you (not you personally) a bit of a cnut. Likewise taking the view that someone isn't intelligent/cultured/whatever enough to appreciate (or even just like) something - let alone something like a stand up comedian's work - is arrogant, IMO.

But people are perfectly entitled to say what they don't like about him, whether that's a perceived smugness or arrogance or otherwise. If someone posted a bare "I don't like him" we'd have people questioning their reasoning behind it. Comedy is entirely subjective.
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Best post in the whole thread.
 
This debate is going round in circles now. The only point worth highlighting is the one made by Brophs that 'comedy is entirely subjective'.

It is possible to 'get' Stewart Lee and not find him funny. I thought the 1st episode of the new series (Crisps) was pretty weak and I don't think Milder Comedian is a patch on his previous 3 shows.
 
He's not smug and arrogant, that's just his onstage persona. Ask yourself this: is doing 200-205 charity gigs a year the actions of someone who is arrogant?
 
Jesus christ, it's an 'act'.


That apart there are always going to be levels of sophistican in any expression and if thinking Eastenders, X Factor and Michael McIntyre are base entertainment and next to worthless, and opting for something a little more left of field makes me a cnut then I am one, a massive one. And I don't even do any charity work to make up for it.
 
acnumber9 said:
You've done little to dispel the notion of Stewart Lee fans being pompous and considering themselves fans of a higher plane of comedy. In reality you know nothing about my tastes but jump to an assumption I don't like clever comedy just because I haven't found Lee funny. Well done on being such an idiot.
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Em , innocent until proven guilty, where is this going ? Book burning?
 
moses said:
Jesus christ, it's an 'act'.


That apart there are always going to be levels of sophistican in any expression and if thinking Eastenders, X Factor and Michael McIntyre are base entertainment and next to worthless, and opting for something a little more left of field makes me a cnut then I am one, a massive one. And I don't even do any charity work to make up for it.
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See that type of comment does Stewart Lee fans no favours. The implication that if you don't "get"/enjoy his brand of comedy then you should be lumped alongside the fans of X Factor and Eastenders.

Fwiw, I think he's clever and interesting. I don't think he's particularly funny, though. Watching his routine will provoke the odd wry smile but never a belly laugh. The whole repetitive shick doesn't tickle my funny bone at all, illustrated perfectly by the comments about charity work in this thread - which I stopped finding even mildy amusing after the first two or three times they were posted.

Furthermore - whilst I appreciate his persona on stage is cultivated - I've never warmed to him as an individual (in print or on screen) which makes it all the more difficult to get any enjoyment out of his routine. All of which means I can barely be arsed to seek him out on tv, never mind pay to go and see one of his gigs. If this means I should be lumped in with the screaming hordes in the X Factor audience then so be it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
See that type of comment does Stewart Lee fans no favours. The implication that if you don't "get"/enjoy his brand of comedy then you should be lumped alongside the fans of X Factor and Eastenders.

Fwiw, I think he's clever and interesting. I don't think he's particularly funny, though. Watching his routine will provoke the odd wry smile but never a belly laugh. The whole repetitive shick doesn't tickle my funny bone at all, illustrated perfectly by the comments about charity work in this thread - which I stopped finding even mildy amusing after the first two or three times they were posted.

Furthermore - whilst I appreciate his persona on stage is cultivated - I've never warmed to him as an individual (in print or on screen) which makes it all the more difficult to get any enjoyment out of his routine. All of which means I can barely be arsed to seek him out on tv, never mind pay to go and see one of his gigs. If this means I should be lumped in with the screaming hordes in the X Factor audience then so be it.
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Will everyone stop trying to be the everyman, his target audience is not the same as those shows, let's all stop pretending everything is done on face value and finds it's place in the schedule on merit.

The bottom line is he's funny, that's why people like him. If you want to examine it further, as people with the accusations that he and his fans are smug, then the reasons will out.

Lee fans, like they are a deviant subculture.

I'm not saying people that don't like him are Eastenders fans, just that it's ok to not like something else due to lack of originality and thought, so why not comics?
 
:lol: This is getting a little out of hand isn't it?.....

I'm sorry everyone, I'll try harder to like him, feck it, I'll even pretend to laugh as he takes an hour to arrive at the crux of the joke...

In terms of his smugness just being and act, well, is that not what we like or dislike? His act? I don't know him personally, I'm sure he's lovely.
 
Eyepopper said:
:lol: This is getting a little out of hand isn't it?.....

I'm sorry everyone, I'll try harder to like him, feck it, I'll even pretend to laugh as he takes an hour to arrive at the crux of the joke...

In terms of his smugness just being and act, well, is that not what we like or dislike? His act? I don't know him personally, I'm sure he's lovely.
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You don't have to like him, just let others like him without judging them for doing so. I don't mind people thinking he's shit, nobody would, but the idea that people only like him to seem intelligent is what the problem is. That's not about him as much as us.
 
Yep, this is definitely one of those threads where the phrase 'agree to disagree' seems a good way to leave it.

Not to mention that it's actually a thread about Michael McIntyre.
 
moses said:
Will everyone stop trying to be the everyman, his target audience is not the same as those shows, let's all stop pretending everything is done on face value and finds it's place in the schedule on merit.

The bottom line is he's funny, that's why people like him. If you want to examine it further, as people with the accusations that he and his fans are smug, then the reasons will out.

Lee fans, like they are a deviant subculture.

I'm not saying people that don't like him are Eastenders fans, just that it's ok to not like something else due to lack of originality and thought, so why not comics?
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I don't think anyone's taking issue with liking or disliking someone rather the assumption that anyone who doesn't like him isn't capable of 'getting' him or is somehow lacking otherwise. I can appreciate that Pink Floyd are a very talented band, but I wouldn't spend time listening to them by choice.
 
moses said:
Will everyone stop trying to be the everyman, his target audience is not the same as those shows, let's all stop pretending everything is done on face value and finds it's place in the schedule on merit.

The bottom line is he's funny, that's why people like him. If you want to examine it further, as people with the accusations that he and his fans are smug, then the reasons will out.

Lee fans, like they are a deviant subculture.

I'm not saying people that don't like him are Eastenders fans, just that it's ok to not like something else due to lack of originality and thought, so why not comics?
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Would you accept that argument from a Michael McIntyre fan?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Fwiw, I think he's clever and interesting. I don't think he's particularly funny, though. Watching his routine will provoke the odd wry smile but never a belly laugh. The whole repetitive shick doesn't tickle my funny bone at all, illustrated perfectly by the comments about charity work in this thread - which I stopped finding even mildy amusing after the first two or three times they were posted.

Furthermore - whilst I appreciate his persona on stage is cultivated - I've never warmed to him as an individual (in print or on screen) which makes it all the more difficult to get any enjoyment out of his routine. All of which means I can barely be arsed to seek him out on tv, never mind pay to go and see one of his gigs.
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This pretty much sums up my views on him too.... he just seems to draw out his jokes, even the IRA bit, yeah I get it, the IRA, better class of terrorist, god be with the days of telephone warnings.... thats it, thats that joke, it doesn't need to go on for 4 minutes.... I find his style painful.
 
NJ1979 said:
Would you accept that argument from a Michael McIntyre fan?
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Of course, and without saying they only like him because they they like stupidy. It's not for me and although his material is very unchallenging that doesn't allow me to make any judgements on the people who laugh at it, as it's an 'act'.
 
moses said:
You don't have to like him, just let others like him without judging them for doing so. I don't mind people thinking he's shit, nobody would, but the idea that people only like him to seem intelligent is what the problem is. That's not about him as much as us.
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Thats not what I meant, I said in my experience lots of his fans are a bit self congratulatory and smug, and seem to think liking him makes them in some way high brow or whatever (not sure exactly what words I used, I'm sure I'll be pointed back to them).

This is of course not dispelled by being told in this thread that basically if you dont like Stewart Lee you dont get him (the implication being that not getting him means you're a bit dull).
 
Eyepopper said:
This pretty much sums up my views on him too.... he just seems to draw out his jokes, even the IRA bit, yeah I get it, the IRA, better class of terrorist, god be with the days of telephone warnings.... thats it, thats that joke, it doesn't need to go on for 4 minutes.... I find his style painful.
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TBF the punchline to that joke is that they were decent British terrorists....

I'm not sure you 'got it' :nervous:
 
Oh yes, sorry, I'm not able to accurately quote him at will, another annoying trait of many of his fans.
 
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