Music Michael Jackson is Dead (All general comment)

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

No..Just Hagiography

This is not a a my dick is bigger than your's contest. Chill out man. Seriously.

non and under are 2 different words with 2 different meanings.

Saying songs with great melodies are under melodic is basically calling them shit.

Samey....and they are. It was hardly a Beatles-esque depart from one style to another....It was the same sythy pop hee hee, shamon stuff

A "Give In To Me" for example is nothing like a "Speechless" or a "Remember the Time" vocally. That is simply not true.

Pele thinks El Hadj Diouff is one of the 100 greatest Living footballers

Football isn't music. So I don't see how that is relevant.

.....Furthermore are you sure they said he was a genius 'Songwriter'? or just a genius?...different thing

They called him a musical genius, I'm sure.

Well I would disagree...Most people would say Off The Wall, Thriller & Bad are his classic albums...Dangerous was middle of the road for me

That's a fair assessment.

I believe though that Dangerous was superior to BAD & was his last great album.

No they weren't particularly. They certainly weren't a soundtrack to the times. To Jacko's rabid fans they might have been...but not to most.

No. Dangerous was an up to date album. Hence its success every where. It was at the height of the New Jack swing thing and it was spot on. But it had his trade mark musical stamp that he had mastered in the mid 80's.

Invincible could have been if given a chance but it was was simply killed by his personal life. For musically it was up to date with the urban music of the time. Also IMO one of its greatest weaknesses was that it mostly deviated from his original musical style. Which frankly made matters worse.

Not really...it sounds nothing like his 80s stuff

Which all his best work post BAD has sounded like. After dangerous he deviated more from it and floundered and surprisingly.

They were doing that in the late 80s too/QUOTE]

..The allegations started around then admittedly...but thats a neat way of excusing why he wasn't producing any universally praised music

It isn't. Like it or not his personal life affected his musical directly. The quality of music he produced came down drastically because of it. I don't think he'd have been able to produce "Thriller" of "Bad" back in the day if he had the type of personal life issues that dogged him from about 1993 onwards. He IMO was surrounded with too much negativity to fully concentrate on producing quality stuff. That is why tracks of the quality of Earth Song are few in that period.

. Thats just a crap argument Chief. They're his friends for a start...it's like people who shout us down on here for questioning Fergie. It sort of betrays any real substance to your beliefs e

So only his enemies have to speak well of him for you to admit it? Is that your argument

.it helps that he's just died of course.

He was ranked as Genius long before he died.

Genius at entertainment..but not at song writing for me

For you. Which no offence intended is the crappiest argument of all when you attach so much hyperbole to it like you have been doing.

Well you're claiming I should be giving him the bulk of the credit for it

Well it's his idea. Just like the Thriller video was. You should give credit for it just like you'd give credit to a writer of a great song that a great vocalist has sang.

I think it was rather 'underwhelming' and nothing particularly special. Your an odd ball if you think he produced his best work 'after' it.

You are the odd ball if you believe that part of our post. Because I haven't even come close to saying it. Rather I said Smooth Criminal was not his last great piece of work.

Jacko fans are interminable sometimes, refusing to accept even the slightest criticism of the man.

You really don't like his fans do you

Put it this way... If his career had begun after Smooth Criminal...he wouldn't be thought of in even a fraction of the way he is now

That is a given. His rep was built over 45 years. Of which the first 7 in the 80's were his best bar none. A period at which he was at his musical peak, a much happier person and free of the controversy that ruined his career from 93 onwards.

Yes....I do

 

[Adzzz]

His new song is abit wank IMHO. I expected something very good, alas 'twas not to be.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

How was MJ a great song writer exactly? I never found his songs to be very well written at all. Normal pop music lyrics.

 

[EricaNo7]

he wasn't known as the king of pop for nothing.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

he wasn't known as the king of pop for nothing.

That much is obvious. But then I hate most pop music. He's the only good one for me (or one of the few).

 

[Mockney]

This is not a a my dick is bigger than your's contest. Chill out man. Seriously.

Bruv, I'm as calm as a cucumber...you're the one trying to slander my argument as 'stupid' and 'laughable'...I wasn't aware I'd made any accusations like that...and putting smilies in every reply to imply I'm loosing it and thus amusing you is a lovely little trick there Chief...nicely done. You're the one getting the most bent out of shape here...I can take it or leave it mate...

Saying songs with great melodies are under melodic is basically calling them shit.

No it isn't. Cars by Gary Newman has very little melody, vocal or otherwise...D'you like Hip Hop?

No. Dangerous was an up to date album. Hence its success every where. It was at the height of the New Jack swing thing and it was spot on. But it had his trade mark musical stamp that he had mastered in the mid 80's.

Id content it was successfull everywhere more due to the massive cachet Jackson still had by that period. Again, if that had been his first album, it wouldn't have been received nearly as well.

It isn't. Like it or not his personal lfie affected his musical directly. The quality of music he produced came down drastically because of it.

I wouldn't deny that...But a lot of the time that isn't the case in music.

So only his enemies have to speak well of him for you to admit it? Is that your argument

No of course not..but his friends and his hardcore following are an equally unbiased reference.

For you. Which no offence intended is the crappiest argument of all.

You seem genuinely angry that I don't rate Jackson as a 'musical genius!'...I don't, and I'm sure a few others will agree with me in this thread. Opinions ey...At least I'm saying they're opinions

Well it's his idea. Just like the Thriller video was. You give credit for it just like you'd give credit to a writer of a great song that a great vocalist has sang.

Idea/Writer are again...two very distinctly different things. I'd give more credit to the writer than the bloke who had the idea. I'd give Spielberg and Lawrence Kasdan more credit for Raiders of the Lost Ark than George Lucas.
Jackson saying "yeah it'd be cool to be in space and float around and such" isn't really creative genius...and again..I think scream was appaling. Lacking in anything good musically and a dull video where nothing happened apart from some weird SFX...IMO

You really don't like his fans do you

Well I don't like anyone who's obsessive about someone they've never met...I think it's incredibly sad. Not saying you are of course, but he had a fair few more of those nutters than most

 

[Mockney]

he wasn't known as the king of pop for nothing.

Madonna is the Queen of Pop...she's never so much as written a song in the shower....it's for entertainment, and cultural reasons. Though jackson certainly deserves the title more than madge

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Madonna is the Queen of Pop...she's never so much as written a song in the shower....it's for entertainment, and cultural reasons. Though jackson certainly deserves the title more than madge

I tend to agree with this.

Can someone give me a list of brilliantly written MJ songs, written by MJ?

Dylan, now that's a great songwriter.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Bruv, I'm as calm as a cucumber...you're the one trying to slander my argument as 'stupid' and 'laughable'.

I wish it was slander. You have been going over board with our statements. No doubt about it. which is what has amused me. Anyone reading many of your statements would think MJ was the musical equivalent of a Britney Spears.

..I wasn't aware I'd made any accusations like that...and putting smilies in every reply to imply I'm loosing it and thus amusing you is a lovely little trick there Chief...nicely done. You're the one getting the most bent out of shape here...I can take it or leave it mate...

If that was true you wouldn't post statements like this:

"Anyone who doesn't agree with you is laughable chief...it's just your way."

You seem to think this is personal.

No it isn't. Cars by Gary Newman has very little melody, vocal or otherwise

Yes. However the vast majority of MJ"s songs in the period in dispute where nothing like it. I'm sure.

...D'you like Hip Hop?

What if I like hiphop?

Id content it was successfull everywhere more due to the massive cachet Jackson still had by that period. Again, if that had been his first album, it wouldn't have been received nearly as well.

I highly doubt that. It was a very good album. Most musicians around would kill to have a debut that good.

I wouldn't deny that...But a lot of the time that isn't the case in music.

Very true. But in his case it clearly was. The worse his life got, the worse his music got, sadly.

No of course not..but his friends and his hardcore following are an equally unbiased reference.

Well I don't refer to just his fans for opinions on such matters. No one should really.

I prefer opinions of his musical peers. Of which some of the best happen to be his friends as well. So their being his friends shouldn't count against him.

You seem genuinely angry that I don't rate Jackson as a 'musical genius!'

Rather I'm totally amused. Because of how dismissive of him you are being. Not because of your view. Though I might not be getting that across very well tbf.

...I don't, and I'm sure a few others will agree with me in this thread. Opinions ey...At least I'm saying they're opinions

So is everyone else. Just don't go over board with your opinion. Be fair.

...I don't, and I'm sure a few others will agree with me in this thread.

Of course they would. Doesn't make it any less amusing when you go over board with it.

Opinions ey...At least I'm saying they're opinions

So is everyone else.

Idea/Writer are again...two very distinctly different things.

You are joking if you think MJ just stopped at the idea stage. He didn't have to direct a video to be the amongst writers of what went on in it tbf.

I'd give more credit to the writer than the bloke who had the idea. I'd give Spielberg and Lawrence Kasdan more credit for Raiders of the Lost Ark than George Lucas

As would anyone else.

Jackson saying "yeah it'd be cool to be in space and float around and such" isn't really creative genius

No one said it was. All I said was the video was ground breaking ....not creative genius.

...and again..I think scream was appaling. Lacking in anything good musically and a dull video where nothing happened apart from some weird SFX...IMO

I agree, musically it was bland. The video was good enough though. But he had done miles better in the past and with something like Earth Song even.

Well I don't like anyone who's obsessive about someone they've never met...

Neither do I tbh. IMO they hinder rather than help the image of the people who they are obsessive about.

I think it's incredibly sad. Not saying you are of course, but he had a fair few more of those nutters than most

I agree.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I tend to agree with this.

Can someone give me a list of brilliantly written MJ songs, written by MJ?

Dylan, now that's a great songwriter.

"Don't stop till you get enough", "Smooth criminal", "Beat It", "Billie Jean", "Speechless", "What ever happens", "Earth song", "Give In To Me", "Heal the world", "Wanna Be starting something"

There are more.

 

[Mockney]

"Don't stop till you get enough", "Smooth criminal", "Beat It", "Billie Jean", "Speechless", "What ever happens", "Earth song", "Give In To Me", "Heal the world", "Wanna Be starting something"

There are more.

Just to clear up confusion here. The lyrics and top lining was written by jackson. The musical accompaniment to everything on Off The Wall & Thriller was done by Quincey Jones...depends what you like about those songs. This is why I don't consider him a musical genius. To quote wiki (and it's source is his biographer, though to be fair I never take wiki as gospel)

Jackson claimed that when the melody of "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough" came to him, he couldn't shake it off. He found himself humming and singing it while walking through the Jacksons' Encino home. As Michael could not play, he had his brother Randy perform the melody on a piano in the family's recording studio

Now, as a musician...I don't think this is particularly genius. He hummed a tune, and had one of the greatest producers in the world knock up an amazing backing track with disco strings and the like (what is generally instinctively remembered about that song to be fair)...Now I could be considered a musical genius if everything I hummed could be laid down to a brilliant piece of music from Quincey Jones...Let alone if I had my own private recording studio to do it in whenever it took my fancy

This is my point. When Jackson learned to play and created his own 'music', his albums got worse. This is why i don't consider him a musical genius. Top lining is one thing. Musical accompaniment is another. He's certainly very good at humming catchy tunes that are (or were) in tune with popular tastes...but musical genius?...No

And spare me your opinion that I have it in for Jackson. I loved him as a kid, and still have a great deal of respect for him. But also, far from 'not knowing my shit' also know how a lot of his music was created..I'm a music buff, went to music collage, play 4 instruments etc etc...I've looked into it. The first thing I do when I like a song is look for who wrote it and how....and for me, he wasn't a genius musically

 

[amolbhatia50k]

"Don't stop till you get enough", "Smooth criminal", "Beat It", "Billie Jean", "Speechless", "What ever happens", "Earth song", "Give In To Me", "Heal the world", "Wanna Be starting something"

There are more.

haha
Beat is now a amAzingly written song. Next bramble will be better than zidane. Oh wait ..

 

[phelans shorts]

Madonna is the Queen of Pop...she's never so much as written a song in the shower....it's for entertainment, and cultural reasons. Though jackson certainly deserves the title more than madge

madonna has written more number one's than any other females tbf, but she is still nowhere near MJ

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

haha
Beat is now a amAzingly written song. Next bramble will be better than zidane. Oh wait ..

If you don't know Beat it is an amazingly written song, the dictionary has no word to describe you.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Just to clear up confusion here. The lyrics and top lining was written by jackson. The musical accompaniment to everything on Off The Wall & Thriller was done by Quincey Jones

Michael was co producer of all those tracks on both albums. He also fully participated in the musical arrangement almost all of them. Same as with "Bad" the album. He didn't just leave all the work to Quincy or who ever when building those songs. He was never that type of musician. He was a perfectionist.

Now, as a musician...I don't think this is particularly genius. He hummed a tune, and had one of the greatest producers in the world knock up an amazing backing track with disco strings and the like (what is generally instinctively remembered about that song to be fair)...Now I could be considered a musical genius if everything I hummed could be laid down to a brilliant piece of music from Quincey Jones...Let alone if I had my own private recording studio to do it in whenever it took my fancy

This is my point. When Jackson learned to play and created his own 'music', his albums got worse. This is why i don't consider him a musical genius. Top lining is one thing. Musical accompaniment is another. He's certainly very good at humming catchy tunes that are (or were) in tune with popular tastes...but musical genius?...No

Below are the production credits for that song.

• Written by Michael Jackson
• Produced by Michael Jackson & Quincy Jones
• Lead and background vocals: Michael Jackson
• Bass: Louis Johnson
• Drums: John Robinson
• Electric piano: Greg Phillinganes
• Guitar: David Williams and Marlo Henderson
• Percussion: Michael Jackson, Randy Jackson and Paulinho Da Costa
• Horns arranged by Jerry Hey and performed by The Seawing Horns:
  • Trumpet and flugelhorn: Jerry Hey
  • Tenor, alto saxophones and flute: Larry Williams
  • Baritone, tenor saxophones and flute: Kim Hutchcroft
  • Trombone: William Reichenbach
  • Trumpet: Gary Grant
• Rhythm arrangement by Greg Phillinganes and Michael Jackson
• Vocal and percussion arrangements by Michael Jackson
• String arrangement by Ben Wright
• Concert master: Gerald Vinci
• Additional background vocals by Jim Gilstrap, Augie Johnson, Mortonette Jenkins, Paulette McWilliams and Zedric Williams

Notice the bolded parts. You've made it seem like he didn't do much to get that song produced for example. You do him a great disservice when you paint his work like that.

 

[Spoony]

Madonna is the Queen of Pop...she's never so much as written a song in the shower....it's for entertainment, and cultural reasons. Though jackson certainly deserves the title more than madge

To be fair, Madona couldn't even dream of having his dancing and singing skills.

 

[EricaNo7]

he was also a brilliant dancer and had an amazing voice

 

[Spoony]

I just said that. But Mockey's probably right. . .not a musical genius but a great entertainer, singer and dancer.

 

[EricaNo7]

I just said that. But Mockey's probably right. . .not a musical genius but a great entertainer, singer and dancer.

you posted it while i was typing it

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If you don't know Beat it is an amazingly written song, the dictionary has no word to describe you.

There is, sensible.

How the hell is 'you better run while you can.. beat it, beat it, no one wants to beat it beat it' a great lyric. I could write a hundred songs like that everyday. Ordinary lyric, nice song.

As spoony's also said, great singer, dancer and entertainer.

 

[Spoony]

There is, sensible.

How the hell is 'you better run while you can.. beat it, beat it, no one wants to beat it beat it' a great lyric. I could write a hundred songs like that everyday. Ordinary lyric, nice song.

As spoony's also said, great singer, dancer and entertainer.

Beat It is a fantastic song to be fair. It's not just about great lyrics to be fair.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Beat It is a fantastic song to be fair. It's not just about great lyrics to be fair.

It's a good song. And yes it isn't all about great lyrics but for me it's a big part of it. I write and compose my own stuff so for me there's always a dual aspect to music. So while MJ was a terrific singer, dancer and entertainer, I personally give much more weight age to songwriting than dancing I guess.

I could never put 'Beat it' up there with a 'Stairway to Heaven'. One is a catchy tune which is very well sung, whereas the other takes you pretty much through a journey of emotions and mental visuals to reach wherever your mind interprets it to have reached.

 

[Spoony]

It's a good song. And yes it isn't all about great lyrics but for me it's a big part of it. I write and compose my own stuff so for me there's always a dual aspect to music. So while MJ was a terrific singer, dancer and entertainer, I personally give much more weight age to songwriting than dancing I guess.

I could never put 'Beat it' up there with a 'Stairway to Heaven'. One is a catchy tune which is very well sung, whereas the other takes you pretty much through a journey of emotions and mental visuals to reach wherever your mind interprets it to have reached.

They serve different purposes to be fair. Also music is pretty subjective. . .you think U2 are brilliant but I can't think of many blander bands. Lyrics are important but they're only a part of what can make a song great. . .or else would've done away with music and just listened to poetry to get our fix.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

There is, sensible.

In your dreams.
Ha Ha

How the hell is 'you better run while you can.. beat it, beat it, no one wants to beat it beat it' a great lyric. I could write a hundred songs like that everyday. ......

You couldn't even if you tried and you know it too.

Great songs aren't all about complicated lyrics. If a songs lyrics tie in with the melody and every thing else to have explosive impact. That is a great song. A song can be as simple as Yesterday or Hey Jude are lyrically. Yet still be pure genius inspite of that. What matters most is does the song get it's message and theme across in the best possible way. Doing everything a great song in it's genre is supposed to. Beat It definitely does all that.

 

[Mockney]

Below are the production credits for that song.

• Written by Michael Jackson
• Produced by Michael Jackson & Quincy Jones

• 
  
  You think he arranged those strings?....on second thoughts, he may have hummed them...Genius..conitune
  
  
  

  [*]Lead and background vocals: Michael Jackson
  [*]Bass: Louis Johnson
  [*]Drums: John Robinson
  [*]Electric piano: Greg Phillinganes
  [*]Guitar: David Williams and Marlo Henderson

  
  So basically, everything to do with the melodic composition of the music was these people
  
  

  [*]Percussion: Michael Jackson, Randy Jackson and Paulinho Da Costa

  
  The beat.....Genius.
  
  

  [*]Horns arranged by Jerry Hey and performed by The Seawing Horns:
  

  • Trumpet and flugelhorn: Jerry Hey
  • Tenor, alto saxophones and flute: Larry Williams
  • Baritone, tenor saxophones and flute: Kim Hutchcroft
  • Trombone: William Reichenbach
  • Trumpet: Gary Grant

  
  Again....more musical people
  
  

  [*]Rhythm arrangement by Greg Phillinganes and Michael Jackson

  
  Again...The Beat
  
  

  [*]Vocal and percussion arrangements by Michael Jackson

  
  
  Him singing and the beat....basically. Jacko's contribution was the top lining (which I'm not saying is bad by the way) and the beat....So effectively a hip hop track. So if we take away the strings, the keyboard, the guitar, the bass, the horn and all the musical instruments...we're left with what Jackson himself came up with on his own....Genius!!!

 

[Tibs]

What song are those credits for? Don't Stop?

Here is an early home demo of the song, before any studio work by Quincy Jones (the producer who worked with Michael Jackson)

YouTube - Don't Stop 'Till You Get Enough [Original Demo From 1978]

 

[datura]

To be fair, Madona couldn't even dream of having his dancing and singing skills.

Or bongo skills.

 

[Mockney]

What song are those credits for? Don't Stop?

Here is an early home demo of the song, before any studio work by Quincy Jones (the producer who worked with Michael Jackson)

YouTube - Don't Stop 'Till You Get Enough [Original Demo From 1978]

Funny....I don't notice the strings that made that song so famous...Nor do I notice the striking middle 8....just, oooh you know what, a 4 bar loop...Over and over...Genius. you've almost made my point for me

Look...I don't think he was shit. But it doesn't take a supreme intellectual to realize that he wasn't the next mozart. This is fairly avergae tbh...It's the strings, the horns & the additional guitar that make this song.

One note on the bass over and over just doesn't do it for me...Listen for yourself

YouTube - Michael Jackson - Don't Stop Til You Get Enough

 

[Nate Dogg]

Not a massive of MJ but since his death and after watching a few vids i've realised how unique he was, one thing for sure they will never be another Michael Jackson. People will imitate but he was probably the greatest entertainer of all times.

 

[moses]

Not a massive of MJ but since his death and after watching a few vids i've realised how unique he was, one thing for sure they will never be another Michael Jackson. People will imitate but he was probably the greatest entertainer of all times.

Elvis was a hero to most but he didn't mean shit to me; but he's more entertaining than Jackson IMO.

I'm with Mockney on this one.

 

[Spoony]

Funny....I don't notice the strings that made that song so famous...Nor do I notice the striking middle 8....just, oooh you know what, a 4 bar loop...Over and over...Genius. you've almost made my point for me

Look...I don't think he was shit. But it doesn't take a supreme intellectual to realize that he wasn't the next mozart. This is fairly avergae tbh...It's the strings, the horns & the additional guitar that make this song.

One note on the bass over and over just doesn't do it for me...Listen for yourself

YouTube - Michael Jackson - Don't Stop Til You Get Enough

Nah, I can't agree with that. It's virtually all there. . . sure it's not as polished as the finished article but it's his song, clearly.

 

[Mockney]

But if released as that...it wouldn't be nearly as iconic as it is now...it's the strings that make it iconic....Just as it's the riff in Beat it (by Van Halen), that make that iconic

 

[Spoony]

But if released as that...it wouldn't be nearly as iconic as it is now...it's the strings that make it iconic....Just as it's the riff in Beat it (by Van Halen), that make that iconic

It's not as polished. . .but I think saying the strings make the song iconic is grossly unfair.

I'm not saying he was a musical genius but he was talented.

 

[esmufc07]

Beat It is a fantastic song to be fair. It's not just about great lyrics to be fair.

To be fair Spoony, I think your right to be fair. And to be fair MJ was pretty damn good.

To be fair.

 

[Spoony]

To be fair Spoony, I think your right to be fair. And to be fair MJ was pretty damn good.

To be fair.

To be fair. . .you're a specky four eyed cunto bastard whore.

 

[esmufc07]

To be fair, you used to be a specky four eyed cunto bastard whore. I choose to wear glasses, I could easily get contacts if I so wished.

 

[Spoony]

To be fair, you used to be a specky four eyed cunto bastard whore. I choose to wear glasses, I could easily get contacts if I so wished.

To be fair, I doubt you've got the guts to place contact lenses on your eyeball.

So I win, you specky four eyed cunto bastard whore.

 

[Alex]

Although Michael died, it seems as though this thread won't

 

[esmufc07]

To be fair, I doubt you've got the guts to place contact lenses on your eyeball.

So I win, you specky four eyed cunto bastard whore.

 

[Spoony]

awww Babycakes. Give us a kiss.