I thought Blind in CB or even LB could have helped us out myself.
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In build up, probably. Solidify our defense, defend against L'pool break, I have my doubt. Darmian was solid defensively this game and helped out our CBs at times. Let's not forget Blind has 2 shocker this seasons vs City and Chelsea. Mourinho seems not to trust Blind anymore in big games after the Chelsea game. Blind has a tendency to press leave get out of defensive position (discipline matter) which he can't recover. So Blind is riskier than Darmian. Rojo now is backbone of the team. Not playing your best players (form considered) is stupid.
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Park man marked Pirlo. Park didn't dominated Pirlo. Pirlo was limited but still in game. It's our team was better than AC Milan and won us the game, not Pirlo being outplayed and went missing.
Yesterday, it's clear as day light that Carrick was fully nullified. He had to dropped very deep in between our CBs just to avoid being press when receiving the ball. Still end up taking too long on ball and being pressed. Even with Carrick being nullified and Pogba had a bad game, we were still on even term in first half and edged L'pool in clear chance creation. Individual error cost us the penalty, not that L'pool was better or outplayed us.
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I wonder if other smaller sides will try to replicate the pressing against Carrick and if so, if it will be sucessfull.
Absolutely, and it's always someone else's fault. I mean we've got one poster trying to tell us Firmino and Henderson were marking him and others saying it was Pogba's and Herrera fault for not supporting him more!
Get a grip. We all know, as do all teams, Carrick is not a speedster and will never cover hundreds of miles during any game these days. (probably never did) but he wasn't withdrawn for any other reason that Mourino knew we needed more attackers and not that Carrick was being over-run. When most teams try to do what Liverpool do & put the miles in the way they do, they usually fail miserably. They simply can't keep up the frantic pace that those scouse do. Credit where credit is due. But dont worry about "other" teams trying the same tactic & succeeding. Maybe Chelsea & maybe Tottenham but nobody else.
Mata might have been a choice we would have made instead of Rooney but Jose had already made his mind up he was going to bypass midfield. I believe the stats well bear out that when we go long, we go long well! Our accuracy level is amongst the highest in the league with passes that are "considered" long? (correct me if I'm wrong - I'm sure you will
) We went in at half-time a goal down against a defensive Liverpool team who blocked up the middle and overloaded the sides and did it well. They'd come for a draw, found themselves miraculously up by one & in with a great chance of stealing 3 points! It was always going to be difficult for us in the second half. In Mou's mind, (sharper than ours), he knew Pog was off his game and we weren't going to win it with pretty passing through the conjestion. Rooney was the perfect, hungry and experienced option up front & ultimately played a huge part in the equalizer, vindicating Mourino's strategy.
But he didn't fall apart he just wasn't able to get into the game, there is a difference.
Hes in that side to dictate play and he failed miserably in that aspect. When is failing not to make any positive impact on the game whatsoever not failing apart? He refused to accept the ball when any Liverpool player was within a stones throw, it is his job to collect the ball off our defenders, effectively removing that link from our defense to midfield is crippling for our build up play. But no, you're right, let's stick our fingers in our ears and pretend this isn't something that happens every time he is effectively pressed. Is everyone else's fault, right?
You cant really man mark a deep lying midfielder and sit deep at the same time. so I doubt it'll happen all that often against smaller teams. But other sides that press from the front may well try and target Carrick.
He couldn't get on the ball because Lallana was man-marking him. Credit to Klopp for recognising his quality and paying him the respect by asking probably the best pressing attacking midfielder in the league to do a specific job on him. Apart from one stray pass he played into touch he wasn't particularly bad but just wasn't in the game. Pogba and Herrera could have done more but were far worse in the first half IMO and lacked composure. I also think Mourinho missed a trick by not picking Blind, even at LB. Oh and at 35 I'm not sure that Carrick is in the team to dictate play as much anymore, this isn't 2013. For me he is there to provide stability and balance and it's Pogba in particular who should be dictating the game.
He did fall apart though, he was totally AWOL in that game. It is what he does, just hides when under pressure and stops showing for the ball. It is cowardly.
I heard he doesn't need dribbling skills because he has 'strength' due to his height and that allows him to shield the ball effectively. What utter tosh. Where was Pogba's strength and how well did that help him in protecting the ball. Pogba was a shambles because he tried to overuse his strength and his footwork was all over the place in that first half, instread of quick sharp movements to avoid the press.. Pogba tried to bully his way through and kept losing possession time and time again.
Footwork is very important in midfield to avoid the press, as is good movement off the ball to keep finding pockets of space.. another area in which Carrick is deficient. He is lazy off the ball in high tempo games and is easy to mark.
I agree.
When Carrick is being marked out of the game it was on our centrebacks and Darmian to provide composure and make good use of the ball. Blind at left back would certainly have done that.
Well we disagree and have said more above. Lets not forget that despite still being a quality player he is at 35 past his best and was up against probably the best attacking midfielder league this season in Lallana, who is Klopp's most important player in terms of leading their pressing game.
If it was an age thing, it would be fine and no one would bat an eyelid. Bottom line is that he has struggled in this regard even at his peak. But yeah, we shall agree to disagree.
Absolutely proven wrong already. Pogba is one of the best midfield out there in term of footwork and yet he loses possession so many times against Liverpool. The reason why Pogba unable to shield the ball with his strength because he took it too long when Carrick isn't just about being strong or tall but his ability to play one touch passings and another way is to be able find a space for himself. Three different ways other than footwork can be used to handle pressure. Admit it, footwork isn't the only way in midfield to avoid the press. Carrick was just being nullified by man marked strategy and we did it on Pirlo and he was hopeless.
Still think Carrick will find it difficult to handle high press team? Go watch United vs Spurs and see how we dominated them and Spurs is one of the best team for high press in the league as well and Carrick didn't find it difficult at all in that game.
The point is when there isn't an obvious pass on and he is pressed, his lack of dribbling ability/footwork (too keep the ball under pressure until a pass becomes available) or whatever means that he can panic and in that scenario he can fall apart. Happened quite a few times vs pool and obviously other games. Its a small weakness in this game. Everyone has a weakness
Exactly how I read the game as well.
Bring Mata on for Carrick or move Mkhi inside with Rashford on the right and I think we would have won the game.
I think Mourinho took the gamble because Rooney has been playing okay-ish recently and would have been really up for it because of the record, but he was just abysmal.
You didn't read my point at all.
My point is footwork/dribbling ability isn't the only way that can be used to handle pressure. Pogba is one of the best midfielder with footwork and dribbling skills and yet he couldn't handle the high pressure from Liverpool players.
Carrick was being man marked and watched even when he was off the ball against Liverpool. Being followed is different with being pressed. If he's being pressed, he can still get away from it and try to find a space for himself or shield the ball with his strength. But he was being marked and followed whenever he goes which nullified his ability to always find a good space.
Carrick wasn't being marked in Spurs game and he was still able to handle Pochettino's high press system.
I've never said it's the only way but it is an essential component in beating the press.
Pogba overrates his own footwork and gets caught on the ball way too often for a guy with brilliant footwork. He has great skills but he needs to tighten up his footwork. It's behind someone like Iniesta or Coutinho.. guy who also occupy a LCM position but always know when to wriggle out of spaces and how to do it. They also possess brilliant movement off the ball and never stand still.
So that means it's not an utter tosh when someone said a midfielder doesn't always need a dribbling skills or footwork skills to handle high pressure because there are different way such as strength which allows him to shield the ball effectively, quick one touch passings and ability to find your own space. Am i right with this?
I agree with you on the first point.
No when he got the ball and got pressed he panic'd when there wasn't an obvious passing option to offload the ball quickly. Not when he was being followed. Those were separate instances.
I don't disagree with you in entirely I am just pointing out that he does have a flaw/weakness in his game which can become apparent when pressed heavily. That doesn't mean every game where there is a press he is poor, it means that sometimes when he is pressed he can be exposed.
Carrick's ability to handle pressure isn't relying on dribbling and skills but his ability to find space always work great whenever he faces a high pressure team. This is why he didn't find it difficult against Spurs who is right now famous with their high press. But this ability is nullified because Liverpool players were watching his movement and following him the whole time.
Carrick also has strength to shield the ball, with a good awareness he can make quick one touch pass to handle high pressure opposition teaam but these ability were being nullified because both Herrera and Pogba didn't help him at all for available option. Notice how Herrera also found it difficult when he was dropped to no 6 to pass the ball forward before Fellaini came. Pogba didn't give him enough support and option.
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He does have weakness of not having dribbling skills and footwork skills but I see that as an excuse for saying Carrick is unable to handle high press team because there are other ways to handle high press team.
This is because Liverpool pressed properly. Pressing isn't just hunting the ball, Spurs mistake was to press to high and leave gaps in the midfield. Liverpool performed an organised press which was to press the player with the ball and also their closet passing options. They purposely pressed the midfielder as well as his passing options, in this scenario a midfielder who isn't comfortable in alluding players pressuring them with dribbling allowing teammates time to find space can be exposed. Herrera and Mhiki were the only ones who were able to keep the ball at times under that pressure and when they did were able to release the ball and we started attacks. Pogba was just a disaster as he attempted to use his strength in order to buy time but that option wasn't working, plus he just had one of his very off days.
Pogba also has flaws as does Herrera. I'm a big Carrick fan there is no shame in having a small flaw, all players have them.
EDIT: Properly is the wrong word, they just performed a different type of press.
We also press but we press differently to them
Which has been a problem of Carrick's in many games throughout his career at United, to be fair. He's never been particularly great at dictating the pace of high profile matches, which will of course upset the many people that have now swept all previous (and fair) criticism under the carpet upon reaching the mature age of 35.
He gave the ball away quite a few times when he was pressed. At least twice he passed the ball straight out of play
If you look at Liverpool, Origi was supposed to be their no 9 and Lallana was supposed to be their left winger. But Origi seems to be playing as a left winger in first half more than as a striker. While Lallana is in the centre more than on the left. The strategy is so Lallana can man mark Carrick by watching his movement off the ball to make sure he knows where it is and take him off quickly when he received the ball. This pretty much a man marking strategy not just a high press or different type of high press.
Spurs is probably one of the best with their high press and Carrick didn't find it difficult against them.
I never once called it a HIGH press, or different type of HIGH press. Also marking/pressing go hand in hand, it depends on how you organise your pressing.
Also Liverpool isn't the only example of this with Carrick. Vs Spurs they didn't shut of the passing options which is why Carrick was able to bypass
Nope he didn't. He had only three unsuccessful passes. Two because of attempt forward pass which was being intercepted and long ball which was too much power and pace. He only gave the ball away once when he tried to pass it to Rojo or Darmian. He didn't fall apart, he just wasn't able to get into the game so I agree with @Zoo
Don't you think the reason of shut of the passing option in Liverpool games are because Klopp instructed his players especially Lallana to man mark Carrick to make sure he can't pass the ball to Herrera and Pogba? Spurs didn't do it but they still played a high pressure game but our midfield were able to handle it.[/QUOTE]
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Like I said the two sides don't apply the press in the same way. We also play a pressing game but not in the same way as those sides either.
High press is a high press in fact Spurs is the best team for high pressing in the League if you watch them a lot this season or even last season even Kante and Matic found it difficult. However Liverpool wasn't just playing high press or a different type of pressure, they had the same tactic as what we used Park on Pirlo. Man marking Carrick. You don't think Klopp used this strategy against us yesterday?
From what I saw all of our central midfielders were pressured/marked or in other words pressed.
I just have different opinion about being marked and pressed. I think they are two different things. Carrick was marked and watched most of the times. Herrera and Pogba were pressed with many players. That's what I think.
Thing is, just because you're marked doesn't mean you have to disappear from the game or shun the ball entirely. You only need a fraction of a second and half a yard of space to be able to collect the ball and play a pass, Carrick simply stopped attempting it.
You keep using Spurs as an example but Spurs were unable to press to their usual standard, we controlled and shackled them in that respect, at no point was Carrick hounded continually.
Only played 45 mins. Pirlo was shut down for 180 mins by Park. Sometime you need to give a big credit to the ones who man mark the players. To be able to watch and follow their movement and at the same time disturbing the players play off and on the ball and also still contributed other stuff, this role is sometime truly underrated.
Well, what do you expect. It's a good example because Spurs under Pochettino is one of the best or probably the best high pressure team in the league. They always do it every game.
Yeah they generally press well, it doesn't mean they will press well every single game they play, no more so than Messi will score in every single game he plays. The fact of the matter is Spurs didn't put Carrick under serious pressure and so he was allowed to play his game. As myself and so many others have repeatedly pointed out wilting under pressure is a regular occurance for Carrick.
What about give a credit to Carrick himself for able to find his own space? Unlike the Liverpool game, he wasn't being marked or watched or followed. As far what I remember, Dembele did put some pressure on him a few times but he was able to pass the ball quickly to forward or shielded the ball and kept the possesion.
Wait, so you're saying give Carrick credit for finding space when he isn't being watched, marked or followed? Have a think about that and tell me why we are crediting him.
Hes a brilliant midfielder who is able to find space and pick teams off. He has a flaw when hes put under pressure sometimes he can wilt. There is no shame in that, its simply an observation.
What I meant was he doesn't always flaw under pressure because he can also handle a high press but people always said he "always". Players do sometime flaw when put under pressure. Look at Pogba against Liverpool.
I don't think he can handle being pressed very well when its applied in a certain way. I explained that above. Also with Carrick it isn't 1 or 2 games its something I have observed from him over a number of years. But I don't even mean it as a big deal and I'm not even bashing him. Just pointing out an observation. Its not a big deal I just think he has a small flaw in his game.
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