Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Cal?]

You surely know better than Juve fans

How can you be a GOAT when your skill set does not go beyond poaching, goal scoring ?

How can you be a GOAT when Messi easily matches you in terms of your biggest strength area, goal scoring?

How can you be a GOAT when compared with the complete package, Messi, who is still gonna be considered one of the greatest ever even without goal scoring due to his amazing playmaking & dribbling skills? Where would Ronaldo be without his goals? Probably in the reserve team

How can you be a GOAT when you give little joy to watch as you lack creativity whereas the other is one of the most exciting players ever? Even Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Platini, R9 etc. are much more fun to watch than Ronaldo (excluding his early United years). Probably the least fun to watch player in the GOAT conversation, can count 10s of other players who are much more exciting to watch..

How can you be a GOAT when Messi surpassed you in Ballon D'ors (7>5), Golden Shoe (6>4), iffhs best playmaker award (4>0), Pichichi (5>3 in 9 years), La Liga best player award (6>1), international tournament MVP (4>0)?

I bet people who think Ronaldo is the GOAT are mostly Portuguese fans and some United fans. Most Juve fans definitely think he is no more than a great poacher, definitely not GOAT material just like Gerd Muller and even most United fans think Messi is better than Ronaldo looking at the poll. Can you imagine Ronaldo leading in a Barca forum ?

The circumstances of his departure from Juve has nothing to do with this discussion.

Apparently the player with the most assists in CL history's skill set does not go beyond goalscoring.

Other than the fact that Messi comes nowhere near matching Ronaldo's goalscoring in the biggest competition they both play in...

You're entitled to your opinion, Messi will not be considered anywhere neat a GOAT if his scoring record is similar to Iniesta.

Again, a matter of opinion, not everyone thinks tiki taka is the only way football is supposed to be played.

Ronaldo got more votes in Ballon D'ors than Messi in more years than vice versa. FACT

This poll? Everyone knows it was rigged. Only you Messi brigade pretend not to realize

 

[Cal?]

Center of attention? He scored 91 goals as a false nr 9. Ibra, villa, and zlatan were shunted because Messi was one of the best goalscorers ever but at the same time he was the master of setting up his teammates. Just watch Messi's performance in the 5-0 demolition of real madrid.

And obviously juve were never going to win league without Ronaldo despite winning 7 in a row.

When Ibra and the likes are shunted it's because Messi's is a great scorer, yet when Benzema & co play 2nd fiddle to Ronaldo, it has nothing to do with Ronaldo being a great scorer. Great logic.

Ronaldo scored 33 out of 76 scored by Juve in Serie A in 19-20, you seriously think they'd have won the league without him. The fact Juve traded a midfield of Pirlo, Pogba & co for the likes of Ramsey, Arthur is down to the mismanagement of the club, not exactly Ronaldo's fault.

Messi also didn't look too clever in La Liga when Barca wasted all that money.

 

[Daysleeper]

The circumstances of his departure from Juve has nothing to do with this discussion.

Apparently the player with the most assists in CL history's skill set does not go beyond goalscoring.

Other than the fact that Messi comes nowhere near matching Ronaldo's goalscoring in the biggest competition they both play in...

You're entitled to your opinion, Messi will not be considered anywhere neat a GOAT if his scoring record is similar to Iniesta.

Again, a matter of opinion, not everyone thinks tiki taka is the only way football is supposed to be played.

Ronaldo got more votes in Ballon D'ors than Messi in more years than vice versa. FACT

This poll? Everyone knows it was rigged. Only you Messi brigade pretend not to realize

Messi owns Ronaldo when it comes to ballon dors, just come on now

 

[Gehrman]

When Ibra and the likes are shunted it's because Messi's is a great scorer, yet when Benzema & co play 2nd fiddle to Ronaldo, it has nothing to do with Ronaldo being a great scorer. Great logic.

Ronaldo scored 33 out of 76 scored by Juve in Serie A in 19-20, you seriously think they'd have won the league without him. The fact Juve traded a midfield of Pirlo, Pogba & co for the likes of Ramsey, Arthur is down to the mismanagement of the club, not exactly Ronaldo's fault.

Messi also didn't look too clever in La Liga when Barca wasted all that money.

I never brought up Benzema and all that. It's just stupid to attack Messi for playing in a position, he was supremely good in. And that was the managers choice, Guardiola. Enrique put him back on the right under MSN.

I don't think Juve would have won the league if they didn't replace Ronaldo, but I believe they would have won the league if they had never bought Ronaldo in the first place.

 

[JeffFromHK]

To me, Messi is a better dribbler, better passer/play maker, better free kick taker, even better goalscorer

but Ronaldo is still a better player. Footballer is not only about your technique

 

[Gehrman]

To me, Messi is a better dribbler, better passer/play maker, better free kick taker, even better goalscorer

but Ronaldo is still a better player. Footballer is not only about your technique

What makes Ronaldo a better player then? His mentality?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I know it's the Messi vs Ronaldo thread but I don't get what the point of presenting Ronaldo as some kind of talentless hobo compared to Messi is.

Ronaldo is one of the best players ever and has ridiculous numbers. If he fares terribly compared to Messi then pretty much everyone else does too, either because of ability or productivity. Which just raises the question: if Messi is so overwhelmingly superior to everyone, why has he had his fair share of failures and been outdone in the CL by a much worse 'rival'? 'Worse teammates' cannot be an explanation when he's supposed to be so much better than everyone; the gap in quality between other players should be trivial compared to the gap between them and Messi. 'Luck' cannot be an explanation after such a long career either.

Much easier to explain this by saying "he's the best player, but still a human being with flaws just like the rest of them."

 

[Gehrman]

I know it's the Messi vs Ronaldo thread but I don't get what the point of presenting Ronaldo as some kind of talentless hobo compared to Messi is.

Ronaldo is one of the best players ever and has ridiculous numbers. If he fares terribly compared to Messi then pretty much everyone else does too, either because of ability or productivity. Which just raises the question: if Messi is so overwhelmingly superior to everyone, why has he had his fair share of failures and been outdone in the CL by a much worse 'rival'? 'Worse teammates' cannot be an explanation when he's supposed to be so much better than everyone; the gap in quality between other players should be trivial compared to the gap between them and Messi. 'Luck' cannot be an explanation after such a long career either.

Much easier to explain this by saying "he's the best player, but still a human being with flaws just like the rest of them."

I'm not one of those who thinks that Ronaldo is a talentless hobo. Cryuff said he was better than George Best when Ronaldo was at United and his career(and individual achievements speaks for themselves). But about the CL and all that. Messi has done very well individually in the CL. I think some reponsibility has to be put on the management as well. Not only have they hired medicore managers post Guardiola mostly, but they can be tactically rigid due to the "Barcelona way". Perhaps if you have 3-0 lead it's best to park the bus. Madrid when Ronaldo was there had managers who were more flexible and adaptable.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I agree that Messi has a great record in the CL, for a great player, even 'the best' player.

I must say, I am surprised he hasn't 'lucked' into winning another CL.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Ronaldo has been the better player this season but people calling Messi finished is kneejerk. I'd wait for at least 2 seasons of shit football from Messi or Ronaldo before I call any of them finished despite their old age

 

[Gehrman]

I agree that Messi has a great record in the CL, for a great player, even 'the best' player.

I must say, I am surprised he hasn't 'lucked' into winning another CL.

I can agree to some extent but would still point to managers and tactical rigidty. I dont believe Messi is head and shoulders above Ronaldo. He is objectively a far better dribbler and passer, but in terms of goalscoring and being matchwinners there isnt much between them at all.

 

[Gehrman]

Ronaldo has been the better player this season but people calling Messi finished is kneejerk. I'd wait for at least 2 seasons of shit football from Messi or Ronaldo before I call any of them finished despite their old age

Maybe not finished but well beyond their prime. I do believe that Ronaldo overall will have aged better though. I expect Messi to go to the mls when he is 36 and somewhat finished before then.

 

[Swoobs]

I know it's the Messi vs Ronaldo thread but I don't get what the point of presenting Ronaldo as some kind of talentless hobo compared to Messi is.

Ronaldo is one of the best players ever and has ridiculous numbers. If he fares terribly compared to Messi then pretty much everyone else does too, either because of ability or productivity. Which just raises the question: if Messi is so overwhelmingly superior to everyone, why has he had his fair share of failures and been outdone in the CL by a much worse 'rival'? 'Worse teammates' cannot be an explanation when he's supposed to be so much better than everyone; the gap in quality between other players should be trivial compared to the gap between them and Messi. 'Luck' cannot be an explanation after such a long career either.

Much easier to explain this by saying "he's the best player, but still a human being with flaws just like the rest of them."

I agree with your last statement.

However I am not too sure if the first bolded statement refers to only Messi’s career period, or referring to the history of the game. For if its the latter, Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer belongs to the Messi tier of players in terms of performances, so I disagree that no one else compares with Messi.

As for CL wins, Messi had only Pep as a world class manager for 4 years, for the rest of his career, he had mid tier (valverde) to farmer level (setien and tata) managers. Only Enrique and Poch (some may disagree) can be considered okish.

If we compare this to CR7, he had more than a decade under SAF+Prime Mou+Zidane, and a few odd years under pretty competent managers such as Ancelotti. He pretty much only had 2 seasons under below average managers, 1 with Pirlo and less than half with Ole and none-prime Benitez respectively.

Unless by pure luck(Chelsea under matteo), you need a really competent manager to win the UCL, because your rivals there will not be weak and a lot comes down to tactics and/or man management to get the best out of your elite players to beat the other elite players.

Off topic but this is also why I do not understand why is Zidane so underrated in this forum, he may not be SAF or Pep yet, but he has won 3 UCL back to back and you cannot just put it down to luck.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The 'managerial quality' argument is tricky to make due to managers winning so few CL titles. The argument runs the risk of becoming circular.

Messi was present for 100% of Guardiola and Luis Enrique's CL wins, Ronaldo was present for 100% of Zidane's, 50% of SAF's and 33% of Ancelotti's.

 

[Gehrman]

Actually i think when Inter beat peps barca the importance of great managers in the CL. Barca looked unstoppable at the time but Mourinho found a way to nullify them. Of course then Barca knocked Real madrid in the cl semi's in the following season.

 

[NasirTimothy]

I agree with your last statement.

However I am not too sure if the first bolded statement refers to only Messi’s career period, or referring to the history of the game. For if its the latter, Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer belongs to the Messi tier of players in terms of performances, so I disagree that no one else compares with Messi.

As for CL wins, Messi had only Pep as a world class manager for 4 years, for the rest of his career, he had mid tier (valverde) to farmer level (setien and tata) managers. Only Enrique and Poch (some may disagree) can be considered okish.

If we compare this to CR7, he had more than a decade under SAF+Prime Mou+Zidane, and a few odd years under pretty competent managers such as Ancelotti. He pretty much only had 2 seasons under below average managers, 1 with Pirlo and less than half with Ole and none-prime Benitez respectively.

Unless by pure luck(Chelsea under matteo), you need a really competent manager to win the UCL, because your rivals there will not be weak and a lot comes down to tactics and/or man management to get the best out of your elite players to beat the other elite players.

Off topic but this is also why I do not understand why is Zidane so underrated in this forum, he may not be SAF or Pep yet, but he has won 3 UCL back to back and you cannot just put it down to luck.

This is all fair. Another way of putting it is that the vast majority of Ronaldo’s managers have won major trophies without him (including even Zidane). The same can’t be said of many of Messi’s managers. Even someone like Luis Enrique, who most people think of as a good manager, has won nothing of significance without Messi in his team.

 

[That_Bloke]

Incredibly baffling and sad that people are still arguing about those two. They're both from another planet, they've set numbers and records that nobody's gonna beat any time soon. Instead of bickering enjoy them both because the end is (really) nigh.

For the record my favourite out of the two is Messi and I rank him as the best best player I've ever seen in 30 years of watching football, however it will never mean that I'd belittle or downplay what Cristiano has achieved. If you're looking for goals, stats, numbers and league versatility then C.Ronaldo is your pick, which doesn't mean that he's just a hoarder or a hard worker, he's got talent in buckets, added to the most formidable drive and will to win I've ever witnessed. What he achieved will most likely never be seen again in your lifetime and I highly doubt that Messi will ever have his longevity.

If you're looking beyond stats, if you're looking for magic and genius then Messi's your man. It doesn't matter if he can replicate it elsewhere (I don't think he will at PSG and he should've gone to Man City), he was born to play at Barca and he should've ended his career there. What he did on the pitch there will never be seen again before a long, long time. He's for me the epitome of the beautiful game. His footballing IQ is out of this world, and there's no one, no one who understands the game more than him. His performances in France lead me to think that he's still hung over his baffling Barca exit and can't be arsed at PSG. He'll either have a quite unfitting career ending there or he'll come back to Barca.

Forget about Mbappé or Haaland or any name thrown in the mix these days, these two have set the bar so high that you'll never see anything like them in the next 30 maybe 50 years.

 

[Cal?]

Messi owns Ronaldo when it comes to ballon dors, just come on now

It's a fact that Ronaldo has more votes than Messi in more years:

Ronaldo more votes: 2018, 2017, 2016, 2014, 2013, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004
Messi more votes: 2021, 2019, 2015, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009

Now, even if you ignore 04 & 05, Ronaldo still wins the H2H in more years.

 

[Cal?]

I never brought up Benzema and all that. It's just stupid to attack Messi for playing in a position, he was supremely good in. And that was the managers choice, Guardiola. Enrique put him back on the right under MSN.

I don't think Juve would have won the league if they didn't replace Ronaldo, but I believe they would have won the league if they had never bought Ronaldo in the first place.

It wasn't you, I was replying to someone saying "Wherever Ronaldo goes, he is the the center of attention for goal scoring where the whole team is designed to create chances for him.", as if that wasn't the case for Messi until this season.

I also think Barca won't be in such disarray if they sold Messi earlier, who knows what would have been.

 

[Gehrman]

Incredibly baffling and sad that people are still arguing about those two. They're both from another planet, they've set numbers and records that nobody's gonna beat any time soon. Instead of bickering enjoy them both because the end is (really) nigh.

For the record my favourite out of the two is Messi and I rank him as the best best player I've ever seen in 30 years of watching football, however it will never mean that I'd belittle or downplay what Cristiano has achieved. If you're looking for goals, stats, numbers and league versatility then C.Ronaldo is your pick, which doesn't mean that he's just a hoarder or a hard worker, he's got talent in buckets, added to the most formidable drive and will to win I've ever witnessed. What he achieved will most likely never be seen again in your lifetime and I highly doubt that Messi will ever have his longevity.

If you're looking beyond stats, if you're looking for magic and genius then Messi's your man. It doesn't matter if he can replicate it elsewhere (I don't think he will at PSG and he should've gone to Man City), he was born to play at Barca and he should've ended his career there. What he did on the pitch there will never be seen again before a long, long time. He's for me the epitome of the beautiful game. His footballing IQ is out of this world, and there's no one, no one who understands the game more than him. His performances in France lead me to think that he's still hung over his baffling Barca exit and can't be arsed at PSG. He'll either have a quite unfitting career ending there or he'll come back to Barca.

Forget about Mbappé or Haaland or any name thrown in the mix these days, these two have set the bar so high that you'll never see anything like them in the next 30 maybe 50 years.

But you just joined the conversation.

 

[Gehrman]

It's a fact that Ronaldo has more votes than Messi in more years:

Ronaldo more votes: 2018, 2017, 2016, 2014, 2013, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004
Messi more votes: 2021, 2019, 2015, 2012, 2011, 2010, 2009

Now, even if you ignore 04 & 05, Ronaldo still wins the H2H in more years.

I think Ronaldo himself cares more about winning the honour itself rather than having total more votes or whatever. Anyway if Ronaldo and Messi didn't compete against eachother they would probably have either 9 or 10 each.

 

[Lord SInister]

But you just joined the conversation.

 

[Pickle85]

This is all fair. Another way of putting it is that the vast majority of Ronaldo’s managers have won major trophies without him (including even Zidane). The same can’t be said of many of Messi’s managers. Even someone like Luis Enrique, who most people think of as a good manager, has won nothing of significance without Messi in his team.

Another way of putting it is that Barca's recruitment has been very weird.

 

[Bebestation]

Another way of putting it is that Barca's recruitment has been very weird.

And they wonder why we wanted to see him outside of Barcelona - to see if he was same player he was for Barcelona.

 

[Pickle85]

And they wonder why we wanted to see him outside of Barcelona - to see if he was same player he was for Barcelona.

And now that he's outside of that hothouse it's not his fault, obviously, because he's past his best, the manager isn't playing to his strengths, people keep missing chances etc etc

 

[Bebestation]

And now that he's outside of that hothouse it's not his fault, obviously, because he's past his best, the manager isn't playing to his strengths, people keep missing chances etc etc

It was very obvious to see. The Messi for Argentina was great but not the same level as he was for Barcelona. That doesn't ever mean I was sure about it either, it's why I wanted to see a transfer happen.

I think one of the main things people assume is that - they think why we wanted him to play in a different league/ a different club was as a way to highlight him as an average player - which was never the case.

He is an absolute legendary player - but is he the undisputed Greatest Of All Time he is to many a people if he had a career outside of Barcelona.. Outside of La Liga..I'm not so sure about that.

 

[cyberman]

I agree with your last statement.

However I am not too sure if the first bolded statement refers to only Messi’s career period, or referring to the history of the game. For if its the latter, Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer belongs to the Messi tier of players in terms of performances, so I disagree that no one else compares with Messi.

As for CL wins, Messi had only Pep as a world class manager for 4 years, for the rest of his career, he had mid tier (valverde) to farmer level (setien and tata) managers. Only Enrique and Poch (some may disagree) can be considered okish.

If we compare this to CR7, he had more than a decade under SAF+Prime Mou+Zidane, and a few odd years under pretty competent managers such as Ancelotti. He pretty much only had 2 seasons under below average managers, 1 with Pirlo and less than half with Ole and none-prime Benitez respectively.

Unless by pure luck(Chelsea under matteo), you need a really competent manager to win the UCL, because your rivals there will not be weak and a lot comes down to tactics and/or man management to get the best out of your elite players to beat the other elite players.

Off topic but this is also why I do not understand why is Zidane so underrated in this forum, he may not be SAF or Pep yet, but he has won 3 UCL back to back and you cannot just put it down to luck.

Wait… prime Mou? The Jose that Madrid broke? That Mourinho!? Id also say Zidane rep is built off of Ronaldo.

 

[Gehrman]

Wait… prime Mou? The Jose that Madrid broke? That Mourinho!? Id also say Zidane rep is built off of Ronaldo.

Mourinho broke the monopoly on the league that Barca were having. And came to Madrid on back of his greatest ever season.

 

[Bebestation]

Wait… prime Mou? The Jose that Madrid broke? That Mourinho!? Id also say Zidane rep is built off of Ronaldo.

Exactly. Acting like Zidane was a good manager with a name before managing Ronaldo.

The same way Enrique has built his name of Messi and the rest of MSN.

 

[Gehrman]

Exactly. Acting like Zidane was a good manager with a name before managing Ronaldo.

The same way Enrique has built his name of Messi and the rest of MSN.

Guardiola was an unknown but proved himself immdiately. A bit like Zidane. No one considered 2008 Barca the best squad in the world before Pep came in and tweaked it to his system.

 

[genardk]

It was very obvious to see. The Messi for Argentina was great but not the same level as he was for Barcelona. That doesn't ever mean I was sure about it either, it's why I wanted to see a transfer happen.

I think one of the main things people assume is that - they think why we wanted him to play in a different league/ a different club was as a way to highlight him as an average player - which was never the case.

He is an absolute legendary player - but is he the undisputed Greatest Of All Time he is to many a people if he had a career outside of Barcelona.. Outside of La Liga..I'm not so sure about that.

The same is valid for Ronaldo. Is he going to be in the GOAT conversation if he never played for Real in Spain?.. I'm not sure about that..
Also, Ronaldo was not at the same level he was at Real as he was for Portugal.. He tends to struggle a lot against major teams with the latter..

Messi on the other hand won 4 tournament MVPs with Argentina in every possible tournament he could compete (Copa, WC, Olympics), that's probably a record..

 

[Wolf1992]

It was very obvious to see. The Messi for Argentina was great but not the same level as he was for Barcelona. That doesn't ever mean I was sure about it either, it's why I wanted to see a transfer happen.

I think one of the main things people assume is that - they think why we wanted him to play in a different league/ a different club was as a way to highlight him as an average player - which was never the case.

He is an absolute legendary player - but is he the undisputed Greatest Of All Time he is to many a people if he had a career outside of Barcelona.. Outside of La Liga..I'm not so sure about that.

He can't be the undisputed GOAT, because Pele and Maradona are close to him/above him for a lot of experts.

Anyways, to be compared with Pele and Maradona it's the real deal.

 

[Swoobs]

Wait… prime Mou? The Jose that Madrid broke? That Mourinho!? Id also say Zidane rep is built off of Ronaldo.

If you need to downplay that Mou, who arrived on the back of a treble winning season and achieved things against that Barcelona, then there is not much else to debate about. Ask any Real fans if that version of Mou was the real deal.

Seen it all here (not to you specifically), to up-sell CR7,that mou is shit, zidane is a nothing,waiting for SAF to be downplayed too. In the meantime, Pep is the GOAT manager, Valverde and Poch are top tier managers, nothing to do with Messi

 

[Swoobs]

He can't be the undisputed GOAT, because Pele and Maradona are close to him/above him for a lot of experts.

Anyways, to be compared with Pele and Maradona it's the real deal.

To me, Pele is the undisputed GOAT, he has the least * to his name. Messi, Maradona and Beckenbaur will be his comparsion, and Cruyff + CR7 belongs to the next tier. Then the rest

 

[cyberman]

If you need to downplay that Mou, who arrived on the back of a treble winning season and achieved things against that Barcelona, then there is not much else to debate about. Ask any Real fans if that version of Mou was the real deal.

Seen it all here (not to you specifically), to up-sell CR7,that mou is shit, zidane is a nothing,waiting for SAF to be downplayed too. In the meantime, Pep is the GOAT manager, Valverde and Poch are top tier managers, nothing to do with Messi

But Madrid broke Mourinho. He was a shell of a manager pretty quickly after getting exposed there. That’s just a fact.
look how many titles Valverde won while at Barca and went a few games away from being invincible, they won the treble under an average manager!
What has Zidane done away from Ronaldo? What has Madrid achieved since he left? They are guaranteed to win the league this year since the league imploded so that isn’t even that much of an accomplishments.
Success followed Ronaldo and Messi. To try and claim whoever was in charge during small passages of time was excellent because of it is ridiculous.

 

[Swoobs]

But Madrid broke Mourinho. He was a shell of a manager pretty quickly after getting exposed there. That’s just a fact.
look how many titles Valverde won while at Barca and went a few games away from being invincible, they won the treble under an average manager!
What has Zidane done away from Ronaldo? What has Madrid achieved since he left? They are guaranteed to win the league this year since the league imploded so that isn’t even that much of an accomplishments.
Success followed Ronaldo and Messi. To try and claim whoever was in charge during small passages of time was excellent because of it is ridiculous.

Alright then, Barca’s Valverde > Madrid’s Mou if thats you wanted to believe. Valverde, the dude who couldn’t even get an interim job at United. Nothing more to debate with you, hopefully some Real posters chim in

 

[cyberman]

Alright then, Barca’s Valverde > Madrid’s Mou if thats you wanted to believe. Valverde, the dude who couldn’t even get an interim job at United. Nothing more to debate with you, hopefully some Real posters chim in

Jose was just fired from Spurs after celebrating them getting a Europa League spot right?

 

[Swoobs]

Jose was just fired from Spurs after celebrating them getting a Europa League spot right?

A different mou now no? That Mou went pretty much head on against Pep’s Barca. Again, you can believe whatever you want to believe

 

[Gehrman]

But Madrid broke Mourinho. He was a shell of a manager pretty quickly after getting exposed there. That’s just a fact.
look how many titles Valverde won while at Barca and went a few games away from being invincible, they won the treble under an average manager!
What has Zidane done away from Ronaldo? What has Madrid achieved since he left? They are guaranteed to win the league this year since the league imploded so that isn’t even that much of an accomplishments.
Success followed Ronaldo and Messi. To try and claim whoever was in charge during small passages of time was excellent because of it is ridiculous.

Zidane won a league without Ronaldo. Also the stars of the 3 peat team have left or are old. Its a very different team now.

 

[cyberman]

A different mou now no? That Mou went pretty much head on against Pep’s Barca. Again, you can believe whatever you want to believe

You brought up the modern status of Valverde so fair is fair