Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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NasirTimothy said:
you are clearly incapable of debate without using hyperbole, which is sad.
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Claims a team has “gone down the toilet” and “loses every week”; receives a reply showing that said team has actually done better in the Champions League and is not far off the position it was in the league at this point last season.

The person who said the team is “down the toilet” and “losing every week” now claims the other person can’t talk without hyperbole :lol:

You couldn’t make this shit up.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Claims a team has “gone down the toilet” and “loses every week”; receives a reply showing that said team has actually done better in the Champions League and is not far off the position it was in the league at this point last season.

The person who said the team is “down the toilet” and “losing every week” now claims the other person can’t talk without hyperbole :lol:

You couldn’t make this shit up.
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United have done better in the Champions League (in a fairly weak group). That’s fair to say. But to say United have gone into the toilet because they were beaten 5-0 at home by Liverpool, 2-0 at home by City, 4-2 by Leicester and 4-1 by Watford (not to mention losing at home to Villa as well and drawing at home with Everton) is not really hyperbole, is it?
 
NasirTimothy said:
United have done better in the Champions League (in a fairly weak group). That’s fair to say. But to say United have gone into the toilet because they were beaten 5-0 at home by Liverpool, 2-0 at home by City, 4-2 by Leicester and 4-1 by Watford (not to mention losing at home to Villa as well and drawing at home with Everton) is not really hyperbole, is it?
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Yes, as is saying they lose every week. I mean mean six points less than last season at this point and qualified for the Champions League knockouts cannot possibly be described as “going in the toilet” compared to last season; that is the definition of hyperbole.
Our last 3 games we literally just beat Villareal, drew to Chelsea and beat Arsenal. With Ronaldo scoring 3 in those games.

We had a dog shit spell, as we do at least once every season with Ole, and a Harry Maguire red card in there didn’t help. Since sacking the manager we’ve already started bouncing back and yes, we’re only 6 points off our place last season though last season we hadn’t faced Liverpool yet.
 
NasirTimothy said:
It’s nothing to do with being stubborn. Just common sense and looking a bit deeper than goals. And yes I do have metrics for judging performances and influence on a team other than goals. And yes if your team has just gone through their worst stretch in living memory, humiliation after humiliation, then no one in that team should be credited with playing well.

Let’s look at the last few games for PSG for example

0-0 v Nice: Messi creates several chances including putting Mbappe clean through who misses.

3-1 v St Etienne: Messi 3 assists (corner, dribble and pass into the box, cross from the left) PSG win

3-1 v Nantes: Messi creates the second goal by passing to a teammate which would have led to a clear chance but it’s is cut out by a defender which creates an OG and the scores the third goal. PSG win

1-2 v Man City: They lose and get outplayed but Messi creates the PSG goal by playing a one two with Neymar and then squaring for Mbappe to score

This was all after he came back from injury.

Has he played as good as he can play? Certainly not. But it’s not all about goals and it never has been for him. That’s the point. He is still helping the team to win.
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Ah yes...I forgot you just have a slightly deeper, more enlightened view of football than anyone else. Either that or your 'looking a bit deeper than goals' metric is, on this occasion, a euphemism for seeing what you want to see. Also, listing a few moments that Messi had in the last few games is proof of nothing and ignores how anonymous he was for large stretches of the rest of those games. At this point the debate is pointless. You're never going to concede what almost everyone else sees: that Ronaldo has started the season stronger. At least you can retreat into your usual 'I'm a football oracle' narrative and tell yourself that you're the only one that really understands the intricacies of the game.
 
Pickle85 said:
Ah yes...I forgot you just have a slightly deeper, more enlightened view of football than anyone else. Either that or your 'looking a bit deeper than goals' metric is, on this occasion, a euphemism for seeing what you want to see. Also, listing a few moments that Messi had in the last few games is proof of nothing and ignores how anonymous he was for large stretches of the rest of those games. At this point the debate is pointless. You're never going to concede what almost everyone else sees: that Ronaldo has started the season stronger. At least you can retreat into your usual 'I'm a football oracle' narrative and tell yourself that you're the only one that really understands the intricacies of the game.
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Those are your words, not mine. Ronaldo was brought to the club to win the title. Last week, Man United were 9th in the table. Is it all his fault? Of course not. But he’s one of the players in the team and the highest profile one. I don’t know what’s so complicated about what I’m saying. How can a player have started better when his team is not doing well? Because he’s scored more goals? Even though all the other players in the team who were previously prolific have stopped scoring?Ok then. If that’s what you think then that’s what you think. Let’s leave it at that.
 
NasirTimothy said:
1-2 v Man City: They lose and get outplayed but Messi creates the PSG goal by playing a one two with Neymar and then squaring for Mbappe to score
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it was a terrible pass, completely off target that the defender deflected to Mbappe :lol:

The Nice, St Etienne and Nantes examples.. my God, there’s desperation for you. Look at the names of those teams again and think how your standards have dropped for Messi. Hell, he needed a red card in the last game before he could start playing.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Those are your words, not mine. Ronaldo was brought to the club to win the title. Last week, Man United were 9th in the table. Is it all his fault? Of course not. But he’s one of the players in the team and the highest profile one. I don’t know what’s so complicated about what I’m saying. How can a player have started better when his team is not doing well? Because he’s scored more goals? Even though all the other players in the team who were previously prolific have stopped scoring?Ok then. If that’s what you think then that’s what you think. Let’s leave it at that.
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Fair enough, agree this argument is pointless and not going anywhere. If you are genuinely of the opinion that a player can't be performing well if the team as a whole isn't then I don't know what to say.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Most stupid question ever asked on the caf?
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I'm out at this point. I just think that poster will dig deeper into the patronising football savant persona from here. I honestly think they agree, in their heart of hearts, but don't want to admit it. Nothing else makes sense.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Yes, as is saying they lose every week. I mean mean six points less than last season at this point and qualified for the Champions League knockouts cannot possibly be described as “going in the toilet” compared to last season; that is the definition of hyperbole.
Our last 3 games we literally just beat Villareal, drew to Chelsea and beat Arsenal. With Ronaldo scoring 3 in those games.

We had a dog shit spell, as we do at least once every season with Ole, and a Harry Maguire red card in there didn’t help. Since sacking the manager we’ve already started bouncing back and yes, we’re only 6 points off our place last season though last season we hadn’t faced Liverpool yet.
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I think United being 7th in the table (as low as 9th last week) is going into the toilet for a club with the second highest net spend in Europe. It’s not hyperbole at all.

Rangnick has come in at the perfect time for him, there’s a run of easy games coming up and United should do much better off the new manager bounce at the very least if nothing else. I actually think he was a good choice to take over.

But the title’s likely gone because of the meltdown over the previous few weeks. That makes it 10 years since the last one. United want to avoid 10 years turning into 20+ years, which can happen in the blink of an eye. Just look at what happened post Busby, or after Dalglish for Liverpool.
 
Pickle85 said:
I'm out at this point. I just think that poster will dig deeper into the patronising football savant persona from here. I honestly think they agree, in their heart of hearts, but don't want to admit it. Nothing else makes sense.
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False. I’ve already explained, if you don’t want to accept it, that’s up to you.
 
To the 2-3% in the last few months who previously voted for Messi and changed their mind on who the better player right now suddenly after 15 years of evidence, I'm baffled. If you thought Ronaldo was better years ago, then fair enough, but can't think of why you'd change your vote now after all this time on either player.
 
Another league one game and Messi still not finding any groove, despite us being told eaelier today from an enlightened individual that he’s started the season better than the other bloke.

Time for a new update, PSG’s league form prior to Messi’s full league debut:

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PSG’s goalscoring and points per game has gone down by a quite dramatically since Messi began starting games for them.

Now it’s dropped from 3 points per game to 2.25 points per game. And their goalscoring is down from 2.8 gpg to 1.83 gpg.

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All of that means very little of course, individually he’s simply not doing anywhere near enough for a player of his ridiculous ability.
 
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Pickle85 said:
Fair enough, agree this argument is pointless and not going anywhere. If you are genuinely of the opinion that a player can't be performing well if the team as a whole isn't then I don't know what to say.
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I didn’t actually say that though. I’ll ask you again, has Ronaldo been criticised since he came to United? If so, why?
 
NasirTimothy said:
I didn’t actually say that though. I’ll ask you again, has Ronaldo been criticised since he came to United? If so, why?
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You're trying to set up an argument we're not having. Yes, Ronaldo has been criticized for a number of reasons. That's not to say that those criticisms are entirely warranted. What does this have to do with the discussion at hand? People will always find things to criticise players for.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Those are your words, not mine. Ronaldo was brought to the club to win the title. Last week, Man United were 9th in the table. Is it all his fault? Of course not. But he’s one of the players in the team and the highest profile one. I don’t know what’s so complicated about what I’m saying. How can a player have started better when his team is not doing well? Because he’s scored more goals? Even though all the other players in the team who were previously prolific have stopped scoring?Ok then. If that’s what you think then that’s what you think. Let’s leave it at that.
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Messi literally won the Balon Dor at a shit Barca last season for feck sake
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
@NasirTimothy PSG’s league form prior to Messi’s full league debut:



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PSG’s goalscoring and points per game has gone down since Messi began starting games.
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I believe Man United beat Leeds 5-1, Everton 4-0, and Wolves 1-0 before Ronaldo made his debut. Ole was the manager then I believe.

After a great start against Newcastle, we’ve had all the games I’ve already referenced
 
Pickle85 said:
You're trying to set up an argument we're not having. Yes, Ronaldo has been criticized for a number of reasons. That's not to say that those criticisms are entirely warranted. What does this have to do with the discussion at hand? People will always find things to criticise players for.
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So he’s been criticised but those criticisms are not warranted. Ok.
 
NasirTimothy said:
I believe Man United beat Leeds 5-1, Everton 4-0,
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wrong :lol: fecking ell you don’t even watch our games do you? You’ve just googled it and slipped up by putting a pre-season friendly there :lol:

I’m having a debate with a bloke who literally hasn’t a scooby what he’s debating, he’s just looking at scorelines and an attempt to spin 12 goals in 16 into something that’s worse than the shit start Messi has had at PSG.

We had just stunk the place out vs Southampton though, and Wolves, my God Wolves, how we somehow got away with a smash and grab there I have no clue, have a read…https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-wolverhampton-wanderers.465099/
 
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NasirTimothy said:
So he’s been criticised but those criticisms are not warranted. Ok.
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I didn't say that. I said that's not to say those criticisms are entirely warranted. No player is perfect. But, again, you're trying to set up an argument that we're not having. How is this question relevant?
 
Pickle85 said:
I didn't say that. I said that's not to say those criticisms are entirely warranted. No player is perfect. But, again, you're trying to set up an argument that we're not having. How is this question relevant?
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If he had started so well, you wouldn’t have people pointing to him as one of the reasons that United were losing. Not that I’m saying that’s fair, I’m just saying that people were saying it.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
wrong :lol: fecking ell you don’t even watch our games do you? You’ve just googled it and slipped up by putting a pre-season friendly there :lol:

I’m having a debate with a bloke who literally hasn’t a scooby what he’s debating, he’s just looking at scorelines and an attempt to spin 12 goals in 16 into something that’s worse than the shit start Messi has had at PSG.

We had just stunk the place out vs Southampton though, and Wolves, my God Wolves, how we somehow got away with a smash and grab there I have no clue, have a read…https://www.redcafe.net/threads/post-match-vs-wolverhampton-wanderers.465099/
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Funny, because you just edited your post to check that it was a friendly (presumably using the internet) and then added it in. So you didn’t know either. I guess you thought I wouldn’t notice that.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Funny, because you just edited your post to check that it was a friendly (presumably using the internet) and then added it in. So you didn’t know either. I guess you thought I wouldn’t notice that.
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Eh? I instantly told you that you were wrong, you were. I’m a United fan mate, I know who we’ve beaten 4-0 and who we haven’t and I know how shit we were performing even prior to Ronaldo’s arrival :lol:

That’s me done, no more debating with a bloke who doesn’t even watch our games.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Eh? I instantly told you that you were wrong, you were. I’m a United fan mate, I know who we’ve beaten 4-0 and who we haven’t and I know how shit we were performing even prior to Ronaldo’s arrival :lol:

That’s me done, no more debating with a bloke who doesn’t even watch our games.
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i was wrong about that, I’ll happily admit that. I’m not a United fan but I do watch their games and I watch PSG’s too. I don’t know everyone’s results off the top of my head so sometimes I have to look them up. I mean, I’m kinda sure that what you did when you created that attractive PSG table.

I still think my main point stands. Peace out.
 
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Trying to argue that Ronaldo has made us worse based on a pre season win, beating Leeds whilst conceding a ton of chances, being very very poor against Wolves and edging it, and a poor draw against Southampton is very very disingenuous.
 
Berbasbullet said:
Trying to argue that Ronaldo has made us worse based on a pre season win, beating Leeds whilst conceding a ton of chances, being very very poor against Wolves and edging it, and a poor draw against Southampton is very very disingenuous.
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Not at all, I’m far from the only person saying that he made the team overall worse. The positive thing is that Ole is gone and Rangnick is there and United still have the cups to go for. Maybe this period will be completely forgotten in the coming months.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Not at all, I’m far from the only person saying that he made the team overall worse. The positive thing is that Ole is gone and Rangnick is there and United still have the cups to go for. Maybe this period will be completely forgotten in the coming months.
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It is if it’s based on what I said above, there maybe other arguments.

Hopefully! Hoping for a good Christmas run to get into the top 4.
 
Whilst my personal preference is Messi, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Messi fanboys are by far the worst.

The pomposity, condescension and, more than anything else, attitude of intellectual superiority has been particularly hard to read over the past few pages.

At times feels tantamount to what I'd imagine a snobby Etonion elite would be like if they were forced to debate with somebody they thought was beneath them.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
It’s never even slightly enjoyable and it’s 661 pages of bickering, of which Nas has bickered almost 500 times.
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It's certainly not my cup of tea, but we're getting bored of the reported posts and it's just going round in circles.

No-one will ever change anyone's mind in this thread, let's be honest.
 
People have been reporting posts? I don't agree with much of what some people say here but I've not seen anything worthy of a report!
 
West Ham beat the UCL team.

And people wonder why people wanted one GOAT just to give this league ago.

What a pussy :D
 
Anto said:
Lads is this not the fella who said a consistent hazard was messi?
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Yeah I said that. Just for your benefit, here’s the same article that I posted before referencing Fabregas, who’s played with both players and knows a lot more about it than you. Note how he says that Hazard has to repeat his performances from 2015 if he wants to be regarded in that light. Unfortunately, he didn’t.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/chelsea...rd-can-be-as-good-as-messi-says-cesc-fabregas
 
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