Cryuff total footballer. Muller goat goalscorer.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
- Thread starter Rado_N
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Who are you? master sabion, im keen to learn more with you. For sure you are going to be a top manager in the world. You know so much, about guys you never saw playing in weekly basis. One who even smoked in a world cup half time.
Depends what you mean - but yeah, it's not an unreasonable claim as such.
For many (individual) years prior to a certain point, the best team in the world was either arguably or clearly a national side - and not a club side.
That has not been the case for a long time - certainly well before the Messi/Ronaldo era.
Always depends on the quality of the teams in the competition. CL is definitely harder than the european cup, but in order to be in the european cup you had to win the league. Chelsea would never had won it, liverpool neither during their last win. Real wouldnt have won 3 out of their last 4.
Yeah that's what I meant - it feels the time from Pele's to the Muller's maybe even Cryuff's and Maradona's (which is getting more closer to where we are at now) - are talked by how they played for their national teams alot.
At the same time, you don't hear much about club football in terms of quantity. Then the 90's or a bit earlier - there seems to be reduced talking about International football and more about clubs.
Someone like Zidane, Ronaldinho or Henry are not really talked primarily for their world cups are they? They are talked first about their clubs football just as much or in some cases usually even more.
Zidane and Ronaldinho certainly are. R9 isnt really known for his club trophies.
He only scored three goals in two world cup finals...
And being an attacking midfielder too.
Calm down guys, you're seriously both getting worked up in an online argument about Cruyff v Muller?
He's one of my personal favourites aswell - I just wonder when people talk about him, what shirt do you imagine him wearing?
For me Maradona doesn't wear Napoli, he wears Argentina. Pele is Brazil. Muller is Germany. It seems very National. I imagine Cryuff's goals for Netherlands than his games at Barcelona.
For me even though I remember Zidanes head butt, I remember him with a Juventus or Madrid top. Henry with Arsenal and not France. Ronaldinho with Barcelona than Brazil even though he messed us up in a quarter final in 2002 or something. Even Zlatan, every place he has been too like the PSG top and the least being the Swedish top even though that wonder goal he scored vs against England.
It's obviously club competition era now - just was wondering if there was a reason why some of these "legends" from a certain age or era in it self seemed to come mostly from international competition and how that was viewed as potentially the best competition of the sport.
If you say so, must had been the only guy, who was a goalkeeper, a defender, and all, and didnt need any team mates. And again im not arguing that probably he had more skillsets and had more dimensions to his game than Muller, but the overall impact of both was pretty similar.
Not really, i even agree that Cruyff was probably better than Muller(wich im not sure, never saw them playing). Just love how this "experts" disregard one of the best of all time, a guy that impact transform a regional club like Bayern was into a european powerhouse, and mark the best period of Germany, setting records and achievements that took decades to overthrow.Calm down guys, you're seriously both getting worked up in an online argument about Cruyff v Muller?
At one point, but the increased televised rights for European football showed everyone year round where the quality is
It depends on what you achieved with club and country. Di Stefano is remember as Mr. Madrid (1950/1960), Pele is Santos/Brazil (1960) outside of Euro football many people don't know much about South American football hence people will remember his international more, but then again he did win 3 WC, so I can understand people putting him in Brazil shirt, Cruyff to me seen in a Ajax jersey more then the Netherlands (1970), I don't know why you bought up his Barcelona stint instead of Ajax? Muller/Beckenbauer I see as half Bayern and Germany (1970), Maradona Argentina (1980), Zindane France (1990/2000), I felt Zidane performance in club level had a little inconsistency and we remember those big final goals, it was mainly with France he came alive and had consistency. R9 Brazil (1990/2000), Henry Arsenal, Xavi/Iniesta/Ramos/Casillas I'd say both Spain and Barcelona/Madrid, Neuer would be both also Bayern/Germany, Messi as Barcelona, CR as United/Madrid etc.
Keep in mind when a player wins something international the entire nation is behind them and support them, so people might associate Muller/Beckenbauer as Germany, because that's what most Germans remember them for not what they achieved for Bayern, as obviously not everyone in Germany support them on the contrary if they didn't win anything for Germany they'd be remember as Bayern only. Messi and Maradona are another example, overall Messi is the far better player, took them to more finals and at times even dragged the team, like last WC qualifiers when they were on the verge of elimination, but people are going to remember Maradona more because of the memory he gave them with the WC, which Messi couldn't.
What do you mean?
Goalscorers always gonna have big impact, as big or even bigger than midfielders/full backs, as they score the goals.
That doesn't mean that a goalscorer will always be a better player than a midfielders/full back, goalscorers like Müller needed to be assisted, as he didn't have a work class ability to dribble players outside of the small area like Mbappé,Robben,Baggio,Messi, or even peak Bastian Schweinsteiger.
E.g Inzaghi was super important for A.C Milan, his impact was inmense, best goalscorer of A.C Milan in modern times.
Was he a better player than his teammate Paolo Maldini? NO
Was he a better player than his teammate Andrea Pirlo? NO
Was he very important for A.C Milan? YES
Plus Inzaghi needed A.C Milan defenders, midfield, goalkeeper to not concede goals, or his goals scored wouldn't mean shit cause they would lose anyway, and no trophy for him.
I feel like the growth and respect of European football has grown as more and more people have access to it on tv and being able to watch all CL matches. Depending on where you lived by in the early 90’s you wouldn’t be able to watch every Barcelona match like you can now, no matter where you are.
European football wasn't aired LIVE outside of Europe until the early-mid 90s, before that we, in my country, had short compilations or replays (at midnight) of European Cup matches...but neither of them LIVE.
I still respect old school football, it was more balanced and unpredictable than today, now you have 5-8 teams concentrating at least 90% of the best talents in the world.
I remember a legend like Zico playing for a small Italian club like Udinese, that would like younger Zlatan moving to current Leeds or Leicester in England.
Yeah I agree. Nice post.
I thought this would be the case too. Even now, International football is Always shown without fail on public TV whilst club football maybe has to be payed for - however its definitely more easily viewable than it would have been all those years ago.
As a United fan I remember the times we were schooled by Juve with Zidane etc before '99. His volley for Real in the 2001 final v Leverkusen obviously stands out too.
But I most remember the two headers v Brazil in 98 and his pen and headbutt v Italy. Also v England at Euro 2004 cos I went to that.
Obviously these days you can watch La Liga, Bundesliga etc so you don't just see overseas players at world cups. In previous decades you couldn't and the UCL has also grown and grown.
That's what I find so strange about these arguments and draft threads etc...People argue stuff as 'facts' about players they've never seen, barring some grainy YouTube clips. It's even worse comparing quite different players.
The quaility of Muller is much higher than Inzaghi, just the fact he won the ballon dor proves it, and with a lot of top 3 nominations aswell.
Muller his average is just insane, was way higher. probably double than Inzaghi,his impact in Bayern is way bigger than Inzaghi was to Milan, and international level, is not even a contest, he was the main guy both for Germany, was for Bayern, Bundesliga, , even Beckenbauer said so.
You would need to comparing him like to Lewandoski, and his impact in Bayern to others team mates. And even so Lewandoski didnt achieve half of Muller in any criteria.
That's true - but this isn't just about how teams were/are perceived. The strength/quality of the best national teams * has deteriorated markedly relative to their club counterparts - this is objectively true, it's not just about coverage/accessibility (as in, club teams were always stronger - they were just less accessible to the average fan across the globe).
Basically, what we're talking about here can be summed up by looking at the 1974 WC final: compare the finalists (West Germany and Holland) with Bayern Munich and Ajax respectively. The former teams are - basically - significant upgrades on the two best/most dominant club teams in Europe at the time.
It goes without saying that something like that would be absolutely impossible today.
* Many would say the level of international competition is simply worse in general: lower tempo, less coherent teams, etc.
Yeah makes no sense whatsoever, atleast Messi vs Ronaldo makes every sense to compare them. Just laugh saying that x guy was a genius and never saw him playing in regularly basis.
Every single player from about 1960 onwards has been extensively captured on film (especially European players). All the information is there if you want it.
That guy was talking about Muller v Cruyff in the ‘game of their lives’ but has he actually bothered to watch said game? I have. Has he watched any games at all from the 74 World Cup? Every single game that Holland played in that tournament is available for free on the internet, at the touch of a button. Do you know how hard it was to get matches like that before the internet?
It’s not about ‘a few grainy YouTube clips’, we’re not talking about ancient history. We’re not debating ‘who was better, Leonidas or Giuseppe Meazza?’ If we were then you might actually have a point.
My bad, Muller v Cruyff in the 'game of their lives' is obviously far more worth getting worked up over than 'Leonidas or Guiseppe Meazza'.
Regardless, start a new thread on it if you want, but no further derailing of the Messi v Ronaldo thread please.
Who’s getting worked up? I’m just pointing out that what you said was factually incorrect. Now back to Messi v Ronaldo.
Spain 2008-2012 is in that category more or less.
This is because we are living in the post-Bosman superclub era. Big European clubs today build squads (not just teams) at great expense with the very best players from every part of the globe. That wasn’t the case in 1974. Or even 1984, when you still had the 3 foreigners rule.
How was Messi vs Brazil?
Back from injury and looking like he will get back in to some Barcelona form soon for PSG?
Back from injury and looking like he will get back in to some Barcelona form soon for PSG?
He participated little in the game and the times he did he was misguided both in the pass and in the dribbling.
At the end of the match he has said that he is not physically well
He did well considering he is returning from an injury.
More or less - perhaps. But 1) they're a pretty extreme outlier and 2) it's just one team (the "absolutely impossible" comment refers to BOTH final teams belonging to the category in question).
(Also, it's clearly possible to argue that as impressive as that Spain side was on paper, they weren't actually the best team in the world - as in, they might've come up short against a club side or two).
I guess it depends if you believe Barca lost or gained more by swapping its foreign players for Ramos, Torres, Capdevila etc...Hell of a team though.
All three are outliers really and that Dutch side won feck all while Ajax notched up three European Cups in a row.
Goal and assist for Messi today to seal the win for PSG. Not the best team in Nantes obviously but his best performance since signing with them.
Awesome game from him today.
Maybe he’ll be a little more locked in now that Argentina has qualified
What i've never understood is why Ronaldo today couldnt change the result with his mental super powers. It's almost like his team mates and manager influenced the game.
This kind of thing has happened over the years but is often met with radio silence from both camps, interestingly
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