Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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badname said:
Muller was "much" worse, meanwhile the guy won the Ballon d'or against those guys, and he was pretty much top 3 for years as a contender, . And being crucial to contless major trophies club and national wise, insanity.
Even though of course, football was a travesty full of semi-professionals during that time, but still he was one of the greatests
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Not that this should be how you measure but Beckenbauer won 2 Ballon D’Ors, Cruyff won three. Anyone who knows anything knows that they were the two premier players of the era (at least in Europe), not Muller, who was never deemed to be on their level, great though he was. The reason is that those two had more impact on the flow of the overall game than Muller did, Beckenbauer by covering the entire back line as a ‘libero’ and connecting with the midfield and forwards via passing moves and Cruyff by doing everything in the Total Football set ups of Ajax and Holland.

And football was fully professional then, stop making stuff up.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Make a poll so I can vote for Hendrix
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:lol: you're on!

On an unrelated note...did anyone else ever play top trumps? If an individual player version exists, maybe we can settle this Messi Vs Ronaldo thing once and for all, as obviously they are the paragon of reliability?!
 
NasirTimothy said:
Not that this should be how you measure but Beckenbauer won 2 Ballon D’Ors, Cruyff won three. Anyone who knows anything knows that they were the two premier players of the era (at least in Europe), not Muller, who was never deemed to be on their level, great though he was. The reason is that those two had more impact on the flow of the overall game than Muller did, Beckenbauer by covering the entire back line as a ‘libero’ and connecting with the midfield and forwards via passing moves and Cruyff by doing everything in the Total Football set ups of Ajax and Holland.

And football was fully professional then, stop making stuff up.
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Müller is probably underrated its just he played in an era where Pelé, Cryuff, Beckenbauer and George Best also played.

it's probably hard to find a player to directly compare Müller to.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Not that this should be how you measure but Beckenbauer won 2 Ballon D’Ors, Cruyff won three. Anyone who knows anything knows that they were the two premier players of the era (at least in Europe), not Muller, who was never deemed to be on their level, great though he was. The reason is that those two had more impact on the flow of the overall game than Muller did, Beckenbauer by covering the entire back line as a ‘libero’ and connecting with the midfield and forwards via passing moves and Cruyff by doing everything in the Total Football set ups of Ajax and Holland.

And football was fully professional then, stop making stuff up.
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They maybe be, but Muller is in no way shape or form "much" inferior to those two. The football of that time was so good, that Cruyff was able to smoke in plain half time and still be a great player was you say he was.
If the top one did that, imagining the rest of the average players.
 
Gehrman said:
Müller is probably underrated its just he played in an era where Pelé, Cryuff, Beckenbauer and George Best also played.

it's probably hard to find a player to directly compare Müller to.
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All of those players were better than him. It’s not underrating him to say that.
 
badname said:
They maybe be, but Muller is in no way shape or form "much" inferior to those two. The football of that time was so good, that Cruyff was able to smoke in plain half time and still be a great player was you say he was.
If the top one did that, imagining the rest of the average players.
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Of course he was much inferior to them. In Germany Beckenbauer is the undisputed best player in the history of the country and I have not heard a single person claim Müller was better than him or Cruyff. He's obviously held in very high regards but not close to Beckenbauer. Müller is the benchmark for strikers in Germany and probably in the same mould as Matthäus as a player, Beckenbauer is the shining light.
 
NasirTimothy said:
All of those players were better than him. It’s not underrating him to say that.
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What I mean is when someone refers to for instance Ronaldo as another Gerd Müller. It's derogaroty. Of course Ronaldo isn't like Gerd Müller(apart from his poacher version perhaps), but Müller set scoring records that took 40 years for others to break.
 
Zehner said:
Of course he was much inferior to them. In Germany Beckenbauer is the undisputed best player in the history of the country and I have not heard a single person claim Müller was better than him or Cruyff. He's obviously held in very high regards but not close to Beckenbauer. Müller is the benchmark for strikers in Germany and probably in the same mould as Matthäus as a player, Beckenbauer is the shining light.
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Really? So why, he was considered the best player ever of the Bundesliga in the 40 years anniversary of the league?
 
badname said:
Really? So why, he was considered the best player ever of the Bundesliga in the 40 years anniversary of the league?
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I don't know. Didn't even knew he was. But I guarantee you that nobody over here thinks Müller was better than Beckenbauer. I mean, in other countries some people claim for indtance Garrincha was better than Pele or Zidane better than Platini or di Stefano better than Maradona. As I said, I haven't come a cross a single person who thinks Müller was better than Beckenbauer.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know. Didn't even knew he was. But I guarantee you that nobody over here thinks Müller was better than Beckenbauer. I mean, in other countries some people claim for indtance Garrincha was better than Pele or Zidane better than Platini or di Stefano better than Maradona. As I said, I haven't come a cross a single person who thinks Müller was better than Beckenbauer.
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Why would anyone with a brain think that though? I mean seriously? This is not to downgrade Gerd Muller, he’s one of the greatest goalscorers of all time, maybe the greatest. But he wasn’t on the level of Cruyff or Beckenbauer as a footballer. That’s not a diss.
 
Zehner said:
I don't know. Didn't even knew he was. But I guarantee you that nobody over here thinks Müller was better than Beckenbauer. I mean, in other countries some people claim for indtance Garrincha was better than Pele or Zidane better than Platini or di Stefano better than Maradona. As I said, I haven't come a cross a single person who thinks Müller was better than Beckenbauer.
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Beckenbauer itself claims he was the most important player for Germany and Bayern at the time. But if you know the opinion of millions of germans, by all means im gonna trust your judgement.
Just find very amusing, you claiming they were "much better," specially Cruyff who doesnt triumph over Muller in not one single metric except for Ballon dor, and even that Muller had as many top 3 spots as Cruyff, and Beckenbauer was not considered the best ever of Bundesliga, Muller was.
 
badname said:
Beckenbauer itself claims he was the most important player for Germany and Bayern at the time. But if you know the opinion of millions of germans, by all means im gonna trust your judgement.
Just find very amusing, you claiming they were "much better," specially Cruyff who doesnt triumph over Muller in not one single metric except for Ballon dor, and even that Muller had as many top 3 spots as Cruyff, and Beckenbauer was not considered the best ever of Bundesliga, Muller was.
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It was me that said they were much better. What do you mean Cruyff doesn’t triumph in one single metric? Johan Cruyff is in the discussion for the greatest footballer who ever lived. He was an unbelievable player. Muller though undoubtedly great, is not. Are there really people who think that Gerd Muller was a better player than Cruyff?
 
:lol: "Cryuff doesn't truimpth Müller in one single metric."
 
badname said:
Beckenbauer itself claims he was the most important player for Germany and Bayern at the time. But if you know the opinion of millions of germans, by all means im gonna trust your judgement.
Just find very amusing, you claiming they were "much better," specially Cruyff who doesnt triumph over Muller in not one single metric except for Ballon dor, and even that Muller had as many top 3 spots as Cruyff, and Beckenbauer was not considered the best ever of Bundesliga, Muller was.
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Nobody thinks of Gerd Müller as best european player in history.
It's usually the likes of Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Charlton,Best,etc who are in the discussion.

Also Cruyff has more individual awards than Muller as best player, at least 90% of Müller awards are related to his scoring numbers("Top scorer of" "european golden shoe" "golden ball"), not about being the "best player" on the pitch.

As fantastic as Müller was, the likes of Johan Cruyff,Michel Platini, Franz Beckenbauer, Bobby Charlton, and George Best were better than Gerd Müller as players
I think Lothar Matthaus is also ahead of Gerd Muller as an overall player.
 
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Wolf1992 said:
Nobody thinks of Gerd Müller as best european player in history.
It's usually the likes of Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Platini, Charlton,Best,etc who are in the discussion.

Also Cruyff has more individual awards than Muller as best player, at least 90% of Müller awards are related to his scoring numbers("Top scorer of" "european golden shoe" "golden ball"), not about being the "best player" on the pitch.

As fantastic as Müller was, the likes of Johan Cruyff,Michel Platini, Franz Beckenbauer, Bobby Charlton, and George Best were better than Gerd Müller as players
I think Lothar Matthaus is also ahead of Gerd Muller as an overall player.
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Hmm always learning, didnt know "golden ball" doesnt mean best player. Muller was more records, individual awards, titles national and club level, than more than half of that list.
 
Wolf1992 said:
Sure, but you are performing as bad as the last season, which shows that Ronaldo isn't what you needed, you needed fullbacks and midfield.
Ronaldo is scoring, but the results aren't much different from last season, cause you didn't need him, others areas were lacking.

Ronaldo is gonna score against mid table and bottom teams wether United is bad or not under Ole, it was the same thing for Juventus last season.

It's not Ronaldo's fault that United is bad, but it was an unnecessary sign, that money could have gone to other areas of the pitch. For not improving other areas is why United still looks very underwhelming.
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Well we do have problems everywhere, from management to coaching to defenders to midfield to pressing up front. Ronaldo has cost us like 25m? We won’t solve any problem with that kind of money. We have 75m Sancho and 40m VDB sitting on bench, and we have 80m Maguire and 45m AWB making defensive errors after errors which cost us many points. We have 25m Diallo, 15m Telles, 10m Pellistri nowhere near starting lineup. That’s nearly 300m money wasted by Ole over last couple of years leading to our current shambolic team play. We won’t magically change all that from another 25m spending elsewhere.

To be fair, not even very peak Messi or Maradona could save this Man Utd side from trouble, let alone 36-37 year old Ronaldo, who already did all he can with all his clutch crucial goals and determined play.

However, if we didn’t spend 75m on Sancho and 40m on VDB, who hasn’t contribute anything for us, maybe you will have a point here. That would be 115m fund to spend on midfielders and full backs. Maybe that would solve some of our many problems.
 
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badname said:
Lost the final of his life, with Muller in the otherside providing the show, for starts.
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And people still consider Cryuff a better player because he was a total footballer.
 
Gehrman said:
And people still consider Cryuff a better player because he was a total footballer.
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Maybe , because he also won more golden balls than Muller, no argument there, he also was the poster boy of that tactical revolution a bit like Beckenbauer did it in defense. But every other metric besides golden balls, he didnt achieve more than Muller.
 
badname said:
Maybe , because he also won more golden balls than Muller, no argument there, he also was the poster boy of that tactical revolution a bit like Beckenbauer did it in defense. But every other metric besides golden balls, he didnt achieve more than Muller.
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Cruyff has more individual awards than Müller, most Müller awards are about being top scorer or breaking a goal record, not being the best player on the pitch, unlike Cruyff.

Barely anybody think Müller is the better player than Cruyff, individually he isn't better than Beckenbauer or Matthaüs.

Team trophies are team trophies, Origi and Sturridge have won CL, Zlatan hasn't... nobody think the former are better than Zlatan, more successful probably, just like they also have won more trophies than Ronaldo Nazario.
 
You know the debate is almost over when it revolves to Cruyff vs Muller and Hendrix vs Richards to fill space.
 
Wolf1992 said:
Cruyff has more individual awards than Müller, most Müller awards are about being top scorer or breaking a goal record, not being the best player on the pitch, unlike Cruyff.

Barely anybody think Müller is the better player than Cruyff, individually he isn't better than Beckenbauer or Matthaüs.

Team trophies are team trophies, Origi and Sturridge have won CL, Zlatan hasn't... nobody think the former are better than Zlatan, more successful probably, just like they also have won more trophies than Ronaldo Nazario.
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Almost u are right, except Muller won also Golden Ball, and have as many top nominations as Cruyff, so not only he was more of everything atleast including team trophies, that he was crucial to win those, that he also was best player in a given year and was considered one of the best.

Not sure how u know Cruyff was better, atleast i dont have 65 plus years and having acess to weekly basis stream in the 60s, but he simply didnt achieve more than Muller except for Golden Balls, wich Muller had it aswell. Not gonna commeting of those other players either, but i think is ridiculous comparing the impact of Muller in Bayern and Germany to Matthaus.
 
I thought it has always been Cruyff vs Beckenbauer in 70s, instead of Cruyff vs Muller.

Anyway, my GOAT rating of all these players from 70s:

Cruyff - top 5 or 6
Beckenbauer - top 6 or 7
Muller - around top 15

Top 4 - Pele, Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona
Top 5 to 7 - Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer
Top 8 to 16 - Platini, Best, Garrincha, Puskas, Eusebio, Muller, Zico, Zidane, L.Ronaldo

it’s nothing to do with playmaker vs goalscorer argument we have with these Cruyff vs Muller and even Messi vs Ronaldo arguments. It’s just simply a measurement of overall greatness throughout their peak/career.
 
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RedRonaldo said:
I thought it has always been Cruyff vs Beckenbauer in 70s, instead of Cruyff vs Muller.

Anyway, my GOAT rating of all these players from 70s:

Cruyff - top 5 or 6
Beckenbauer - top 6 or 7
Muller - around top 15

Top 4 - Pele, Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona
Top 5 to 7 - Di Stefano, Cruyff, Beckenbauer
Top 8 to 16 - Platini, Best, Garrincha, Puskas, Eusebio, Muller, Zico, Zidane, L.Ronaldo

it’s nothing to do with playmaker vs goalscorer argument we have with these Cruyff vs Muller and even Messi vs Ronaldo arguments. It’s just simply a measurement of overall greatness throughout their peak/career.
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Were is Dinho?
 
badname said:
Almost u are right, except Muller won also Golden Ball, and have as many top nominations as Cruyff, so not only he was more of everything atleast including team trophies, that he was crucial to win those, that he also was best player in a given year and was considered one of the best.

Not sure how u know Cruyff was better, atleast i dont have 65 plus years and having acess to weekly basis stream in the 60s, but he simply didnt achieve more than Muller except for Golden Balls, wich Muller had it aswell. Not gonna commeting of those other players either, but i think is ridiculous comparing the impact of Muller in Bayern and Germany to Matthaus.
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70s GOATs were Cruyff and Beckenbauer, Muller isn't in the conversation for best European player in History, Cruyff is.

The fact that Cruyff have 3 Balloon de Or and Gerd Muller one, is the ultimate give away.
Plus Beckenbauer won more times the award "German player of the year" than Müller, how can Müller be comparable with Cruyff, if Beckenbauer was considered best german over Müller? I don't get it.

The majority of the awards Müller won were for his scoring records, not being the best player (aside from his 1 Balon D'or) : Top scorer of Bundesliga, European Golden shoe(scoring), World Cup golden ball (scoring), European Cup top scorer, Euro Championship top scorer, etc.

All awards won by Cruyff and Beckenbauer were about being the best player on the pitch(over other forwards), other german players were selected as best player of Bundesliga over Muller(not only Beckenbauer), despite Gerd breaking goal records in Germany.

And yes, it's perfect possible for Matthaus to be better PLAYER than Muller, considering Matthaus has also more awards as best PLAYER than Muller.

First time i read that Muller can be comparable with GOATs like Cruyff and Beckenbauer.
 
Wolf1992 said:
70s GOATs were Cruyff and Beckenbauer, Muller isn't in the conversation for best European player in History, Cruyff is.

The fact that Cruyff have 3 Balloon de Or and Gerd Muller one, is the ultimate give away.
Plus Beckenbauer won more times the award "German player of the year" than Müller, how can Müller be comparable with Cruyff, if Beckenbauer was considered best german over Müller? I don't get it.

The majority of the awards Müller won were for his scoring records, not being the best player (aside from his 1 Balon D'or) : Top scorer of Bundesliga, European Golden shoe(scoring), World Cup golden ball (scoring), European Cup top scorer, Euro Championship top scorer, etc.

All awards won by Cruyff and Beckenbauer were about being the best player on the pitch(over other forwards), other german players were selected as best player of Bundesliga over Muller(not only Beckenbauer), despite Gerd breaking goal records in Germany.

And yes, it's perfect possible for Matthaus to be better PLAYER than Muller, considering Matthaus has also more awards as best PLAYER than Muller.

First time i read that Muller can be comparable with GOATs like Cruyff and Beckenbauer.
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I agree with you, Cruyff won more ballon d or, makes an argument to be greater than Muller.

But why Muller was considered the best player in the Bundesliga history on their 40 years anniversary? Was not Beckenbauer who won it, Muller also won more than once best player of the year in Germany.

Mind you, im not saying he was better than Cruyff or Beckenbauer, never saw any of those players in a basis to form an opinion, just find very odd people dismise a guy like Muller that utterly dominated every single competition he was in. Set records that only very few years ago were broken.

Matthaus i just find ridiculous to be honest, trophies wise they are world apart.
 
badname said:
I agree with you, Cruyff won more ballon d or, makes an argument to be greater than Muller.

But why Muller was considered the best player in the Bundesliga history on their 40 years anniversary? Was not Beckenbauer who won it, Muller also won more than once best player of the year in Germany.

Mind you, im not saying he was better than Cruyff or Beckenbauer, never saw any of those players in a basis to form an opinion, just find very odd people dismise a guy like Muller that utterly dominated every single competition he was in. Set records that only very few years ago were broken.

Matthaus i just find ridiculous to be honest, trophies wise they are world apart.
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They all have different roles, positions and attributes. Its like comparing Zidane to Henry. Whats the point? I think people appreciate genius though. Cryuff was a genius and a false nr 9.
 
Gehrman said:
They all have different roles, positions and attributes. Its like comparing Zidane to Henry. Whats the point? I think people appreciate genius though. Cryuff was a genius and a false nr 9.
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Of course and i agree, just commented because someone said those players were "much" better than Muller, as Muller was an ordinary player. Anyway i doubt that person saw any of them playing regularly.
 
badname said:
Of course and i agree, just commented because someone said those players were "much" better than Muller, as Muller was an ordinary player. Anyway i doubt that person saw any of them playing regularly.
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They were
 
badname said:
I agree with you, Cruyff won more ballon d or, makes an argument to be greater than Muller.

But why Muller was considered the best player in the Bundesliga history on their 40 years anniversary? Was not Beckenbauer who won it, Muller also won more than once best player of the year in Germany.

Mind you, im not saying he was better than Cruyff or Beckenbauer, never saw any of those players in a basis to form an opinion, just find very odd people dismise a guy like Muller that utterly dominated every single competition he was in. Set records that only very few years ago were broken.

Matthaus i just find ridiculous to be honest, trophies wise they are world apart.
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My goodness
 
Wolf1992 said:
70s GOATs were Cruyff and Beckenbauer, Muller isn't in the conversation for best European player in History, Cruyff is.

The fact that Cruyff have 3 Balloon de Or and Gerd Muller one, is the ultimate give away.
Plus Beckenbauer won more times the award "German player of the year" than Müller, how can Müller be comparable with Cruyff, if Beckenbauer was considered best german over Müller? I don't get it.

The majority of the awards Müller won were for his scoring records, not being the best player (aside from his 1 Balon D'or) : Top scorer of Bundesliga, European Golden shoe(scoring), World Cup golden ball (scoring), European Cup top scorer, Euro Championship top scorer, etc.

All awards won by Cruyff and Beckenbauer were about being the best player on the pitch(over other forwards), other german players were selected as best player of Bundesliga over Muller(not only Beckenbauer), despite Gerd breaking goal records in Germany.

And yes, it's perfect possible for Matthaus to be better PLAYER than Muller, considering Matthaus has also more awards as best PLAYER than Muller.

First time i read that Muller can be comparable with GOATs like Cruyff and Beckenbauer.
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I mean he’s clearly not, only ignorance would lead someone to think that. That’s not the same as downgrading or dissing Muller, which this guy seems to think you are doing if you say that Johan Cruyff, a literal genius, was a better player than him.
 
NasirTimothy said:
I mean he’s clearly not, only ignorance would lead someone to think that. That’s not the same as downgrading or dissing Muller, which this guy seems to think you are doing if you say that Johan Cruyff, a literal genius, was a better player than him.
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Only ignorance, i bet you never saw any of them playing regularly, you dont have a single clue of who was better. Again im not arguing that Cruyff might had been better than Muller, just saying that was close of impact of both in clubs. National wise Muller had more, starting for being the match winner of when both collided in the final of their lives.
 
Just out of interest -

At one point International football was bigger and showed more quality than European club football didn't it?
 
Insulting another member
badname said:
Only ignorance, i bet you never saw any of them playing regularly, you dont have a single clue of who was better. Again im not arguing that Cruyff might had been better than Muller, just saying that was close of impact of both in clubs. National wise Muller had more, starting for being the match winner of when both collided in the final of their lives.
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I know for a fact Cruyff was better, stop being a clueless football illiterate.
 
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