I'm not trying to diminish or bash him for being a goalscorer, he is top in that matter.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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But I would agree that in todays obsession with stats it would not be normal to consider Der Kaiser a greater football player than Müller.
Well we all have opinions. Even diabolical, corrupt criminals. Let’s look at the facts though.
Messi in the 2014 WC:
Goals: 3rd (with 4 goals, he scored 50% of Argentina’s output)
Chances created: 1st
Most key passes: 1st
Most through balls: 1st
Successful dribbles: 1st
Most outside the box goals: 1st
Most free-kick goals: 1st
Most points won: 1st
MOTM Awards: 1st
Player rating: 1st
So he obviously deserved it. You can argue for other players but Messi deserved it. And on top of that, he was the best player in 2 Copa Americas as well. That’s Messi 3, CR 0.
Ronaldo was not voted the best player even in the tournament that Portugal won. Now that takes some doing. My goodness.
Come on, everyone knows that Messi was awful in that game, he led Argentina to humiliate Brazil in that final?
Yes, you clearly don’t understand how rivalries work. He captained the team to a victory in Brazil’s most famous stadium and he and his team hoisted the trophy and celebrated on their turf. That was so embarrassing for Brazil that they tried to forcibly deport a bunch of Argentina players during the recent WC qualifier
Arsenal won the league at White Hart Lane almost 20 years ago, their fans still sing about it at the Emirates to this day.
Sure. But he’s got more to his game than goals, this is where the Ronaldo fans will always fail in this comparison.
This makes no sense. Do you think Ali Daei and the other peeps making up the top ten had to play regularly against exceptional teams? Also, no other European has played 185 games.
Further, there’s more dross available now for Europeans than in the past because qualifying has been expanded to include more joke teams. The system should now be tiered.
Wasn't it always the managers and Higuain's fault that Messi never won anything for Argentina until a few months ago?
Well yeah, people did say that. I think it’s wrong, you win and lose as a team. The ‘nonsense’ I was referring to is your assertion that Ronaldo fans don’t say similar things about him. It’s happening right now.
Ok, what about the rest of the last 15 years? I believe Luxembourg were once ranked 186th in the world. I’m not a fan of the rankings as I’ve said but that’s a shocking thing to consider.
What a stupid take. Shall we discredit all Barcelona, PSG, Real Madrid, United and Juventus supporters’ opinion then?
Yes
For someone who went on and on about KO stage goals you are now trying to make his case based on all those goals in the group stage?
That very world cup where he scored a grand zero goals in over 450 minutes of the KO stage?
As if these voting done by some random nameless person actually makes any difference, much like the "most MOTM award" you like to go on about.
It would never have happened if those players didn't decide to ignore COVID regulations.Yes, you clearly don’t understand how rivalries work. He captained the team to a victory in Brazil’s most famous stadium and he and his team hoisted the trophy and celebrated on their turf. That was so embarrassing for Brazil that they tried to forcibly deport a bunch of Argentina players during the recent WC qualifier
Arsenal won the league at White Hart Lane almost 20 years ago, their fans still sing about it at the Emirates to this day.
Err... more games also means more assists and whatever stats you want to go on about? No?
The point is exactly that Asian players dominate that list because of all the dross they play against regularly, and it's rare for any European to make it into the top 10, never mind right to the TOP!
More? There's 2 extra team in UEFA now with Kosovo & Gilbratar in the last decade or so, has Ronaldo ever played those 2?
Ronaldo has in general have lesser team mates than Messi both at their clubs and country for most of their career.
6 of Ronaldo's 9 goals against Lux have come in the last 2 years
5 of Messi's 8 goals against Bolivia have all come this year
I think the relative strength of Bolivia (at sea-level) vs Luxemboug right now is much more relevant.
For someone who went on and on about KO stage goals you are now trying to make his case based on all those goals in the group stage?
That very world cup where he scored a grand zero goals in over 450 minutes of the KO stage?
There’s a lot of stats there that don’t pertain to goals that you might have missed. Not surprising for a Ronaldo fan.
You sound salty. Maybe it’s because of the ‘conspiracy’ against your guy to give Messi hundreds more MOTMs and more BDOs than CR.
It would never have happened if those players didn't decide to ignore COVID regulations.
Yes, because it couldn’t have been sorted out before the game started. It wasn’t done for maximum effect in front of the cameras after the game started. No…..
Look at me, I’m starting to sound as tin-foil hatted as you
Err... more games also means more assists and whatever stats you want to go on about? No?
No the point is Messi can create goals as well as score them. So he’s not useless when he doesn’t score. That’s why he’s a better player than Ronaldo
It’s also rare for a European (or anyone else) to play 180 games.
More? There's 2 extra team in UEFA now with Kosovo & Gilbratar in the last decade or so, has Ronaldo ever played those 2?
Did football start in the last decade? Please do some research, I can’t do it all for you Cal.
A straight up lie. But even if you want to go that route, who’s had the better coaches?
You’re obviously very proud of his record against Luxembourg. And Andorra. And Latvia. And the Faroe Islands. And Lithuania. And Kazakhstan….
The word is out on your boy.
AllThingsSeleção ™ (@SelecaoTalk) Tweeted:
The single greatest stat padder in football history.
9 goals in 29 games vs Top 10
5 goals in 29 games vs World Cup Winning Nations
32 Goals in 28 games vs Outside Top 100.
9 vs Luxembourg
7 vs Lithuania
6 vs Andorra & Hungary
5 vs Latvia & Armenia
4 vs Faroe Islands
And this is from a guy who hates Messi maybe even more than Ronaldo
That would actually be Pele, scored nearly half of his 1000 odd goals in glorified exhibition matches.
How is it wrong?
It is estimated that about 500 of his 1200 or so goals came for Santos in friendlies and glorified exhibition matches.
How is that not stat padding?
I have an idea that may potentially settle the debate depending on how you see it. Rather than comparing the strength of the teams they played for over the years? And using Team honours? Why not use individual honours? Golden boots, Golden balls, Man of the match awards etc? I think it's ridiculous that a hypothetical perfect player from Estonia who decided to play for Acrington Stanley would be considered crap in this Era because he didn't win much as the main player for Acrington Stanley. (Very good premise for a movie. Someone please do something)
In addition I think man of the match awards would be the most objective measure as it negates team roles ie Van Dijk is just as likely to win one as Salah. Its also the best time frame with which to compare ( per match basis) as a player could come second 4 seasons running in player of the season, yet have less recognition than a one season wonder that won it just once
In addition I think man of the match awards would be the most objective measure as it negates team roles ie Van Dijk is just as likely to win one as Salah. Its also the best time frame with which to compare ( per match basis) as a player could come second 4 seasons running in player of the season, yet have less recognition than a one season wonder that won it just once
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Have a look at the Twitter thread that the guy posted, not just the first tweet. He breaks down exactly how CR’s international goals get thinner and thinner the higher up the food chain you get.
That is what he means by statpadding. He’s talking about bullying weaker teams. Now if you can break down Pele’s international record and show how he bullied weaker teams and didn’t score in big games against quality sides then I’d love to see your reasoning.
Also, Pele scored 1283 goals. 526 were in tour games and friendlies, many of which were tough games. Some were against cannon fodder. But he scored against everyone, not just bad teams (admittedly, CR has done this at club level as well, but not at international level)
Also 526 is not ‘almost half’ of 1283, unless you are using a different kind of maths.
I am not really sure where MOTM awards are available. They are on whoscored, but I believe that is whoscored's own MOTM awards. I do believe though that Messi has the most of anyone of the modern era.
There's a lot of stats only Messi fans care about, dribbles? seriously?
Goals decide games, the rest do not.
Ronaldo has been voted ahead of Messi in BDO voting more times than vice versa.
It could have been, but there's also no obligation for the Brazilian authorities to do so. One national team decided to ignore the laws of another country, I wonder who's at fault.Yes, because it couldn’t have been sorted out before the game started. It wasn’t done for maximum effect in front of the cameras after the game started. No…..
Look at me, I’m starting to sound as tin-foil hatted as you
Goals+assists again, somehow that G+A stat that you Messi brigades love doesn't matter at the highest level of football. Very confusing stance.
It's also rare for a South American to play 150+ games, in fact Messi has played more games than anyone else in the top 200 top international scorers other than Ronaldo (and 1 random Egyptian) and is only in 5th place.
When did I ever say football started in the last decade? Now you're off on some random tangent somwhere.
You claim Europe now has weaker teams, I pointed out Ronaldo hasn't even played those new teams.
How is that even debatable? For most of their careers, Messi have had better team-mates, both for club and country.
How many of Ronaldo's team-mates for club and country would have made it into Messi's teams down the years? With the exception of the Real 3-peat side, it'd very unlikely be more than half.
You’re obviously very proud of his record against Luxembourg. And Andorra. And Latvia. And the Faroe Islands. And Lithuania. And Kazakhstan….
The word is out on your boy.
AllThingsSeleção ™ (@SelecaoTalk) Tweeted:
The single greatest stat padder in football history.
9 goals in 29 games vs Top 10
5 goals in 29 games vs World Cup Winning Nations
32 Goals in 28 games vs Outside Top 100.
9 vs Luxembourg
7 vs Lithuania
6 vs Andorra & Hungary
5 vs Latvia & Armenia
4 vs Faroe Islands
And this is from a guy who hates Messi maybe even more than Ronaldo
33 goals against this lot and you have the audacity to talk about stats padding.
Bolivia 8
Ecuador 6
Venezuela 4
Guatemala 3
Haiti 3
Panama 3
Hong Kong 2
Nicaragua 2
Albania 1
Iran 1
Hungary are quite a bit better than most of this lot.
Messi has only ever scored against Uruguay in competitive games out of the WC winning countries, and only in qualifiers, not a single one in major tournaments despite the numerous Copas in recent years.
Ronaldo has scored 6 against France, Germany & Spain in major tournaments; another 7 against Belgium & Netherlands who are probably better than Uruguay in the last 2 decades or so (incidently Messi has never scored against either)
Isn't it pretty obvious why players score more goals against weaker sides? Has there ever been anyone in history who scored more against the likes of Germany/Italy than San Marino/Faroe Island?
I said nearly half, 526 goals is close enough to half of them. It is very funny that someone with Pele as his picture calls Ronaldo the greatest stat padder ever, when Pele was all of sudden remembering goals he lost in the sofa, ones he scored in his back yard and on the street as a kid and adding them to his tally when it was said Ronaldo was going to go past his official tally of 765 goals.
Ronaldo is a great goal scorer. If it was so easy to score against all these shit international teams - why don't all the other great European strikers have closer to the amount of goals he has, they've all played against the same shit teams.
Robbie Keane has 68 goals for Ireland - this same shit was levelled at him by Irish fans that he only scored against the weak teams, well since he's retired nobody else has been able to do it. In fact Shane Duffy has scored more goals in the 50 or so games since than any other striker.
Look at Messi's international record - guess what? He bangs them in against the shit teams too.
I think so as well. His average level of play is higher than any player in the modern era, by a comfortable distance.
Yeah his overall involvment in the match is so high that's bound to. Although he's as great a goalscorer as any, his masterclasses are dictating play and humilating defenders on top scoring or in the absense off.
I see it the same way. His impact transcends stats by such a margin that even if he had half the goals, he'd still be the best player of his generation.
Please take the Messi worshipping to the Messi thread.
The Ronaldo fanboys having a tough time in here. Sweet
There's fanboys, and then there's acolytes. Has your boy ascended to godhood? Discussion over I guessThe Ronaldo fanboys having a tough time in here. Sweet
I love the idea that one of these mass posters is a bot and there's year long arguments going on
No, you lot are just taking the thread off topic. If you're just going to agree with each other about the amazing beauty of everything Messi, please do it in the appropriate thread.The Ronaldo fanboys having a tough time in here. Sweet
There's fanboys, and then there's acolytes. Has your boy ascended to godhood? Discussion over I guess
You'd be one, wouldn't you?
This is delicious
I do feel the occasion matters in the glory aspect though. Even though I prefer Messi, Ronaldo's importance in the 3 CL peat is quite important in the glory aspect. Neither Messi or Ronaldo played for shit teams in their prime and as well as I believe you can hyperanalyze the overall teams contribution and the managers etc being motm in the knockouts or the final in the CL takes the cake over dominating smaller teams in La liga or Copa del rey. Trophies like the Ballon D'or have often now become more like the oscars rather than who was actually the best player. It's more about a narrative than an objective assesment.
Isn't it pretty obvious why players score more goals against weaker sides? Has there ever been anyone in history who scored more against the likes of Germany/Italy than San Marino/Faroe Island?
Pele’s most scored against teams at international level
1. Argentina
2. Chile
3. Paraguay
4. France
Goals scored by Pele against biggest/most historic nations (Italy, Argentina, France, England, Portugal, Germany): 20
Ronaldo’s most scored against teams
1. Luxembourg
2. Lithuania
3. Andorra and Hungary
4. Armenia and Latvia
Goals scored by Ronaldo against biggest/most historic nations (Italy, Argentina, Brazil, France, Spain, England, Netherlands, Germany - note how many more countries I’ve included for him): 7
This is with Ronaldo having played nearly a hundred more international games than Pele.
Pele has only played 26 competitive games for Brazil in his entire career, back then, most games were friendlies and obviously Brazil wasn't about to play San Marino in a friendly.
He played Argentina 10 times, Chile 7 times, etc. Now how many times has Ronaldo faced those teams?
If you want a Ronaldo v Pele thread, please go start one, otherwise, stick to Ronaldo v Messi in this one.
There's a lot of stats only Messi fans care about, dribbles? seriously?
Goals decide games, the rest do not.
A really ignorant statement that belies a total lack of football knowledge.
I’m sure he’s satisfied with having more votes and less actual trophies.
There’s also no obligation for the Brazilian authorities to do it on camera with millions of people watching, but heigh-ho.
Goals+assists again, somehow that G+A stat that you Messi brigades love doesn't matter at the highest level of football. Very confusing stance.
Could really use any stat and Ronaldo would be inferior. Apart from penalty box goals and penalties.
So Ronaldo was in first place when he’d played 150 games, was he?
I meant compared to players in decades past. Not just last month. Dear oh dear.
We can go player for player if you want, I’m pretty sure I’ll find some reasonable ones amongst his Juventus, Manchester United and Real Madrid sides. Maybe even a Ballon D’Or winner. But it’s noticeable that you completely ignored the point about the coaches. Telling….
33 goals against this lot and you have the audacity to talk about stats padding.
Bolivia 8
Ecuador 6
Venezuela 4
Guatemala 3
Haiti 3
Panama 3
Hong Kong 2
Nicaragua 2
Albania 1
Iran 1
Hungary are quite a bit better than most of this lot.
Messi has only ever scored against Uruguay in competitive games out of the WC winning countries, and only in qualifiers, not a single one in major tournaments despite the numerous Copas in recent years.
Ronaldo has scored 6 against France, Germany & Spain in major tournaments; another 7 against Belgium & Netherlands who are probably better than Uruguay in the last 2 decades or so (incidently Messi has never scored against either)
I’ll say this again slowly because you struggle to understand. Messi’s scoring record in major international competitions is not good. But Messi has more to his game than goals. Here’s what that means. That means that when he doesn’t score, he can contribute in other ways. Which helps his team. And also helps him pick up MVP trophies without having a great scoring record. See how that works?
Oh I forgot, ‘goals decide games’, the clarion call of the football illiterate…….you’re probably one of those people who thinks that Gerd Muller was a better player than Franz Beckenbauer.
Pele has only played 26 competitive games for Brazil in his entire career, back then, most games were friendlies and obviously Brazil wasn't about to play San Marino in a friendly.
He played Argentina 10 times, Chile 7 times, etc. Now how many times has Ronaldo faced those teams?
If you want a Ronaldo v Pele thread, please go start one, otherwise, stick to Ronaldo v Messi in this one.
Actually it’s more like 40, it’s just that some of those competitions are minor or now defunct. How many goals did he score in those competitive games out of interest?
And why would I start a thread for a question where the answer is so obvious? (Pele is miles better than Ronaldo quite clearly). At least with Messi and Ronaldo there’s a bit of a debate, although Messi is clearly better.
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Ronaldo & Messi are by far the best players in the history of the sport, quite a bit ahead of the likes of Pele, Maradona & co.
At this stage we're just going in circles.
Ronaldo has better G+A stats than Messi in the CL by some distant, yet somehow that doesn't matter but it matters in lesser competitions.
Ronaldo has received more votes than Messi in BDO voting in more years than Messi has, that doesn't matter, it's winning that counts. Yet somehow losing a WC final is a grand achievement.
Ronaldo only tops the international goalscoring chart because he plays so many games, Messi has also played more games than most and has great stats, but that has nothing to do with him playing lots of games, because he somehow "contributes more than goals", as if assists stats aren't built up due to the number of games played.
It's actually quite tiring to multi-quote and go around circles, it's been the better part of 1.5 decades and it's clear neither side will change their stance and both sides just think of the other side as idiots.
One clear difference is that most Ronaldo fans see Messi right near the top of the GOAT list, it's just the Messi brigade who like to belittle Ronaldo with ridiculous comparisons.
Not really sure they are ahead by far. I think there is definitely something to be said about the game being played at a higher level, but i think they are merely up there instead of being far ahead of the rest.
Total nonsense, with all due respect.
Games played? And how is the World Cup a lesser competition than the Champions League?
Conflating an award with a football match. Typical. In both cases Messi has achieved more so it’s immaterial
Messi doesn’t have great goal stats at international level.
I don’t think of you as an idiot at all. Just a really really big fan of Ronaldo
The reason for that is Ronaldo is perhaps the least talented footballer to have ever tried to lay claim to the GOAT title. He’s a creation rather than a natural wonder.
Don’t get me wrong he’s obviously very very talented by ordinary standards, but I’m talking about the GOAT standards. So that’s probably why Messi fans denigrate him. It’s harder for Ronaldo fans to denigrate Messi because of his insane ability. They have target things like his ‘mentality’.
The CL is clearly a higher level of football than the WC, even if the WC is more prestigious
Let's not bother going through listing everything again and arguing about if CLs are worth more than league titles and how much better the Euro is compared to the Copa.
Interesting view, being 5th topscorer ever is not bad at all
That was perhaps the wrong word, should have said won't agree with the other side's view/opinion ever.
It has nothing to do with ability, I view Messi as the 2nd GOAT because of what he's achieved in the game. There has been many crazily talented player who never had the right application to reach those heights.
One can even make a case for Ronaldinho, but his peak was short, a bit like Luiz Ronaldo.
Maybe. Much more pressure in the World Cup though.
OK
1 in 2 record. Solid, not spectacular. But he was basically playing in midfield for much of it.
OK
It has a lot to do with ability though. If you do it just by accomplishment then Gerd Muller is a better player than Maradona. No one actually thinks this.
It’s the combination of ability and application that makes the GOAT. For many, Ronaldo is deficient in the ability category but has a surfeit of application.
Wrong thread.
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