Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[RedRonaldo]

I’m not a fan of the rankings that much because they mostly don’t make any sense. The teams in the different continental groups do not play each other that much so the metic is horribly flawed. Right now, Mexico, the US, Wales and Senegal are ranked in the top 20. If Ronaldo (or anyone else) scores a goal against one of these teams, is it a big deal in the grand scheme of things? Not really. A goal’s a goal, but it’s not something worthy of amazement.

That’s why I referenced goals v World Cup winning teams. Yes, they’re not the only good teams and yes, their fortunes can fluctuate over time but they’re generally the powerhouses of international football and they are always respected, no matter their current state.

CR has 7 goals in 33 games against those teams. I corrected this stat from my earlier post.

You’ve posted a lot of about CR’s contemporaries, most of whom are not on his level. Let’s compare him with a player that arguably is.

What I know is that his namesake Luis Ronaldo has only 62 international goals but 13 were scored in the KO rounds of major international tournaments and 15 were scored against WC winning nations.

CR has scored 115 goals but 3 of them were in the KO rounds of major int. tourneys and 7 were against WC winning nations. It was 4, but this most recent Euros has helped him out.

Prior to 2021, the hattrick against Spain was the only goals he’d scored against a WC winning team, with the exception of a goal v Argentina.

This is why people say CR is statpadding. We can credit him for his drive, longevity, impeccable fitness record etc etc, but the fact remains that against the big teams and in the biggest games, his record is not that good. Certainly not as good as it is against Andorra et al.

I know there is fluctuation over time, hence I set criteria on top 20, top 10, and historically top 1, under FIFA ranking, to try to cover all kinds of possible scenario. I don't have problem if you want to set one of the criteria on WC winner only, but that would exclude some really great teams over the years, teams such as Netherland, who are probably the top 2 or 3 greatest national team ever during their total football in 70s, and also among the very top team during the 90s-00s. And then you would have to include some teams which hasn't been particular great in past few decades or so, the span could be too long which makes the fluctuation even worst.

At least with FIFA ranking system, it only span for 29 years since 1992, and the historically no.1 teams only include France, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Netherland and Belgium, which gives us a more accurate description of best teams over the recent decades.

The thing is, people has been studying/criticizing Ronaldo goals/opponents under microscope here all the time, but they haven't done the same on other players, which doesn't do him any justice at all. I just lay it all down here, the same judgement/criticism should be applied to everyone else.

 

[RedRonaldo]

What's the timeline for the countries rankings? Like I don't think in my lifetime that Sweden has considered the 2nd strongest national team in the world.

The FIFA ranking system only span for 29 years since 1992, and the historically no.1 teams only include France, Brazil, Spain, Germany, Argentina, Italy, Netherland and Belgium. I think it pretty much cover all the strong nations during our time of watching football.

 

[Bole Top]

So recent goals doesn't count?

why wouldn't they count? the poster said he's always "shown up" against those amateurs, you then brought Spain, France and Germany for some reason, nations against he had zero - 0 goals until the last WC, and he's 36.

at this point, I don't think even you know what were you trying to say with original post.

 

[Bole Top]

I know it's hardly his fault but I bet PSG fans are so frustrated that Messi's basically barely played for them since signing but has managed plenty of games for Argentina.

I was just thinking about this when I saw the date of Argentina vs Peru, it was obvious he wouldn't be available for PSG. he'll be lucky to play 20-25 league games for them at this point.

 

[Cal?]

You can put a laugh emoji but that doesn’t make your point sensible. Over the last 20 years, Uruguay have won the Copa America twice (that’s two more trophies than either Belgium or the Dutch) and reached the final four of the World Cup the same number of times as Belgium and once less than Holland. So yeah, I can easily make that claim. But if you want to disparage Uruguay, there are 8 WC winning nations, not just them. And CR’s goal record against those teams in 7 in 33.

Uruguay have won it once in 2011, please don't invent statistics.

He has 5, but again, this is not strictly about Messi. I’ve already said his KO goal record is poor, if you’ve been paying attention. But it is a bit better than Ronaldo’s.

WC KO goals:

CR - 0
Messi - 0

Euros/Copa KO goals:

CR - 3
Messi - 5

They've been as bad as each other in WC KO, as for Euro v Copa, suffice to say the Euro is in general much much better in the earlier stages.

Going by your previous WC winner criteira, Messi has NEVER scored a KO stage goal (or even a tournament stage goal) against Brazil or Uruguay, all of his many goals against Brazil have come in friendlies, and those against Uruguay have come in WC qualifiers.

His grand total of 5 goals in Copa KO stages have come against Peru, Mexico (2007), Venezuala, USA (2016), Ecuador (2021)

But as I said above, Messi doesn’t just stand or fall by his goals (especially for Argentina), which is one of the reasons he’s a superior player to Ronaldo. If we add just one more stat (assists) you get a better picture:

G/A in KO rounds of major tournaments:

CR - 5
Messi -21

(Messi has 3 assists in the KO rounds of the WC to CR’s 0 and 13 in the CA to CR’s 2 in the Euros).

that’s not even factoring in all the other stuff like chances created, successful dribbles etc.

Messi in fact has more goal contributions in KO rounds of major tournaments than any other player in history. That’s a function of games played (ironically like a lot of Ronaldo’s records) but it still suggests he’s been better at the business end of major tournaments than Ronaldo. As evidenced by his 3 ‘MVP’ trophies to Ronaldo’s zero.

Adding goals to assists is a terrible statistic that has been discussed to death before, it certainly helps when Messi has been playing together with some of the best strikers in the era with Argentina, compared to the dross Ronaldo teamed up with.

How many were penalties?

3 out of 6, still a better record in major tournaments against previous WC winners than Messi.

10 goals is not a lot. CR has 30-40 goals against teams that are practically semi-professional.

Those 4 are particularly bad, particularly Hong Kong and Nicaragua who are ranked 140+, let's not pretend the whole of Conmebol is good, Messi's favourite opponent in international football are Bolivia (ranked 83), when was the last time they even won a game at sea-level?

 

[NasirTimothy]

Uruguay have won it once in 2011, please don't invent statistics.

You are correct. Still one more trophy than either of the teams you mentioned.

They've been as bad as each other in WC KO, as for Euro v Copa, suffice to say the Euro is in general much much better in the earlier stages.

They haven’t, because Messi has led his team to the final and has 3 assists. Ronaldo is 0 and 0. And I don’t want to dredge it up again, but Portugal’s route to the Euro 2016 title was hardly a murderers’ row.

Going by your previous WC winner criteira, Messi has NEVER scored a KO stage goal (or even a tournament stage goal) against Brazil or Uruguay, all of his many goals against Brazil have come in friendlies, and those against Uruguay have come in WC qualifiers.

Scoring goals in friendlies v Brazil >>>> scoring hatfuls of goals against Armenia, the Faroe Islands, Lux etc in ‘competitive’ games.

His grand total of 5 goals in Copa KO stages have come against Peru, Mexico (2007), Venezuala, USA (2016), Ecuador (2021)

5 > 3

Adding goals to assists is a terrible statistic that has been discussed to death before, it certainly helps when Messi has been playing together with some of the best strikers in the era with Argentina, compared to the dross Ronaldo teamed up with.

It’s a ‘terrible statistic’ because it makes CR look bad eh? OK so now Ronaldo, in addition to being banned from scoring goals by FIFA prior to 2008 (according to his fans), is also incapable of getting assists. Maybe he’s just not as creative as Messi, perhaps it’s that? If we brought in chances created (because Ronaldo played with ‘dross’), do you seriously think that would favour Ronaldo? Please.

3 out of 6, still a better record in major tournaments against previous WC winners than Messi.

Ok, try and pretend that Messi doesn’t exist for a second and compare CR’s record with history.

I already mentioned that Luis Ronaldo out of 62 goals has 13 in major KO games and 15 v WC winning nations. Then just in case people want to trot out the old ‘he plays for Portugal’ excuse, I referenced a much inferior player in Suker, who plays for an even less fancied nation than Portugal. However he has 4 goals in 4 KO games and 8 v WC winning nations in 14 games. He scored 45 goals. Even if we remove Spain from the equation, he has 6 in 11. There are many other examples I could reference.

So again, is CR’s record good? If you want to say Messi’s goal record is not good as well and quibble over who’s been worse then fine, but is Ronaldo’s record of 3 KO stage goals out of 115 total and 7 in 33 games v WC winning nations objectively good? Or ‘GOAT’ worthy? That is the question. Yes or no?

Those 4 are particularly bad, particularly Hong Kong and Nicaragua who are ranked 140+, let's not pretend the whole of Conmebol is good, Messi's favourite opponent in international football are Bolivia (ranked 83), when was the last time they even won a game at sea-level?

They beat Argentina 2-0 in a WCQ in 2017. Now why don’t you do the same for Ronaldo’s favourite punching bag Luxembourg? Have they beaten a top team in the last 20 years? I seriously doubt it.

 

[RedRonaldo]

why wouldn't they count? the poster said he's always "shown up" against those amateurs, you then brought Spain, France and Germany for some reason, nations against he had zero - 0 goals until the last WC, and he's 36.

at this point, I don't think even you know what were you trying to say with original post.

First, he wasn't 36 when he scored hattrick against Spain during in last WC. Second, he was talking about stat padding, which is exactly what Ronaldo did against Spain, France, Germany in recent years (as according to this own definition). And last but not least, I don't think you know what you are trying to say here.

 

[bakalhau]

Ronaldo has 270 assists in his career (taking what I'm seeing for real here).

That's more than Xavi, Ozil, Ribery, Di Maria, Fabregas, or Steven Hoffman, which make up part of the 10 player list I'm seeing. Suarez has 3 more assists than him. Messi is over 300. Every other modern player you can think of is leagues behind Ronaldo in this particular aspect.

I just imagine what'd someone call Xavi then if Ronaldo is "incapable of getting assists".

 

[Gehrman]

First, he wasn't 36 when he scored hattrick against Spain during in last WC. Second, he was talking about stat padding, which is exactly what Ronaldo did against Spain, France, Germany in recent years. And last but not least, I don't think you know what you are trying to say here.

Ronaldo's goals in the recent Euros vs France and Germany aren't really statpadding.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Ronaldo's goals in the recent Euros vs France and Germany aren't really statpadding.

Then Ronaldo goals in recent Euro & WC qualifiers are statpadding then? How do you differentiate?

 

[Gehrman]

Then Ronaldo goals in recent Euro & WC qualifiers are statpadding then? How do you differentiate?

I werent talking about those specifically.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I werent talking about those specifically.

So which one are you talking about? Be more specific.

All of his international hattricks are either scored in WC qualifiers, Euro qualifiers, or international tournaments/finals. They are all important/meaningful goals in certain degree, as he would often need to score more goals to ensure his teams could qualify, or progress in tournament.

Only goals I'd consider as clear cut stat padding, are those from meaningless friendly. To break it down, out of 115 goals Ronaldo has scored, only 20 of them comes from friendly (17%), which is far less in proportion as compared to other top players in the game. For example, Messi has 34 out of 80 goals from friendly (42%), Neymar has 42 out of 70 goals from friendly (60%). Those I'd consider more of stat padding.

 

[Gehrman]

So which one are you talking about? Be more specific.

All of his international hattricks are either scored in WC qualifiers, Euro qualifiers, or international tournaments/finals. They are all important/meaningful goals in certain degree, as he need to score more goals for his teams in order to qualify, or progress in tournament.

Only goals I'd consider as clear cut stat padding, are those from meaningless friendly. To break it down, out of 115 goals Ronaldo has scored, only 20 of them comes from friendly (17%), which is far less in proportion as compared to other top players in the game. For example, Messi has 34 out of 80 goals from friendly (42%), Neymar has 42 out of 70 goals from friendly (60%). Those I'd consider more of stat padding.

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word statpadding. I was just using this definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stat_padding

I can admit I was wrong.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Perhaps I was wrong to use the word statpadding. I was just using this definition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stat_padding

I can admit I was wrong.

I see. Then by this definition:

"stat padding is an action that improves a player's statistic despite being of little benefit to his or her team or its chance of winning."

I don't think you can apply this term accurately on most of Ronaldo goals, as they are mostly scored in competitive games, which are mostly important to increase the chance for his country to qualify or progress for major tournaments, in terms of outscoring his opponent team in a match, or to gain more advantage on goal difference.

 

[Gehrman]

I see. Then by this definition:

"stat padding is an action that improves a player's statistic despite being of little benefit to his or her team or its chance of winning."

I don't think you can apply this term accurately on most of Ronaldo goals, as they are mostly scored in competitive games, which are mostly important to increase the chance for his country to qualify or progress for major tournaments.

I guess it's a stupid word. I think what most comes to mind to most people is scoring tons of goals against minnows however there is nothing wrong with that. It's to be expected that a player scores more against lesser opponents and tougher opponents.

 

[RedRonaldo]

I guess it's a stupid word. I think what most comes to mind to most people is scoring tons of goals against minnows however there is nothing wrong with that. It's to be expected that a player scores more against lesser opponents and tougher opponents.

Well to be fair that's what I have been trying to say too. No doubt he is very good at scoring against lesser opponents, but comparatively speaking, he has also proved he is also good at scoring against tougher opponents, as he has scored more against top teams than any other top players around.

 

[Gehrman]

Well to be fair that's what I have been trying to say too. No doubt he is very good at scoring against lesser opponents, but comparatively speaking, he has also proved he is also good at scoring against tougher opponents, as he has scored more against top teams than any other top players around.

That's true, but him and Messi still lack iconic performances in world cups and international tournaments. Pelé, Platini(9 goals in one Euro), Maradonna, R9 and to some extent Zidane all had these. Of course there is also to said the comparative strength of their national teams. Portugal is currently very strong and Ronaldo might still have a good 2022 WC despite his age. Argentina aren't out of the picture either.

 

[NasirTimothy]

That's true, but him and Messi still lack iconic performances in world cups and international tournaments. Pelé, Platini(9 goals in one Euro), Maradonna, R9 and to some extent Zidane all had these. Of course there is also to said the comparative strength of their national teams. Portugal is currently very strong and Ronaldo might still have a good 2022 WC despite his age. Argentina aren't out of the picture either.

I’d also throw Van Basten in ‘88 into the mix.

 

[Gehrman]

I’d also throw Van Basten in ‘88 into the mix.

Sometimes I wonder if Messi regrets not playing for Spain when he was offered it. Obviously Argentina is a historically great footballing nation, but he would absolutely have killed it playing for Spain.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Ronaldo has 270 assists in his career (taking what I'm seeing for real here).

That's more than Xavi, Ozil, Ribery, Di Maria, Fabregas, or Steven Hoffman, which make up part of the 10 player list I'm seeing. Suarez has 3 more assists than him. Messi is over 300. Every other modern player you can think of is leagues behind Ronaldo in this particular aspect.

I just imagine what'd someone call Xavi then if Ronaldo is "incapable of getting assists".

If you’re referring to my post. I was talking about in the KO rounds of international tournaments specifically. Obviously Ronaldo has a large number of assists in his career generally.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Sometimes I wonder if Messi regrets not playing for Spain when he was offered it. Obviously Argentina is a historically great footballing nation, but he would absolutely have killed it playing for Spain.

I doubt it. If he doesn’t feel Spanish then it just won’t mean the same thing.

 

[Gehrman]

I doubt it. If he doesn’t feel Spanish then it just won’t mean the same thing.

He's called the catalan anyway by Argentina fans who don't think he's doing his best.

 

[NasirTimothy]

He's called the catalan anyway by Argentina fans who don't think he's doing his best.

I think that was more the case at the start of his Arg career when he wasn’t playing very well for them. I’m not Argentine and I don’t know how they feel for sure, but I think they’ve taken him much more to their hearts in recent years.

 

[Pocho]

He's called the catalan anyway by Argentina fans who don't think he's doing his best.

They love him now, that was a long time ago.

 

[Cal?]

You are correct. Still one more trophy than either of the teams you mentioned.

They haven’t, because Messi has led his team to the final and has 3 assists. Ronaldo is 0 and 0. And I don’t want to dredge it up again, but Portugal’s route to the Euro 2016 title was hardly a murderers’ row.

Mascherano led Argentina to the WC final whilst Messi didn't score a single goal in the KO stage in that WC

Scoring goals in friendlies v Brazil >>>> scoring hatfuls of goals against Armenia, the Faroe Islands, Lux etc in ‘competitive’ games.

Debatable, qualifiers lead somewhere, friendlies don't

5 > 3

It’s a ‘terrible statistic’ because it makes CR look bad eh? OK so now Ronaldo, in addition to being banned from scoring goals by FIFA prior to 2008 (according to his fans), is also incapable of getting assists. Maybe he’s just not as creative as Messi, perhaps it’s that? If we brought in chances created (because Ronaldo played with ‘dross’), do you seriously think that would favour Ronaldo? Please.

No, it's a terrible statistic cos it implies goals and assists are worth the same.

Ok, try and pretend that Messi doesn’t exist for a second and compare CR’s record with history.

I already mentioned that Luis Ronaldo out of 62 goals has 13 in major KO games and 15 v WC winning nations. Then just in case people want to trot out the old ‘he plays for Portugal’ excuse, I referenced a much inferior player in Suker, who plays for an even less fancied nation than Portugal. However he has 4 goals in 4 KO games and 8 v WC winning nations in 14 games. He scored 45 goals. Even if we remove Spain from the equation, he has 6 in 11. There are many other examples I could reference.

So again, is CR’s record good? If you want to say Messi’s goal record is not good as well and quibble over who’s been worse then fine, but is Ronaldo’s record of 3 KO stage goals out of 115 total and 7 in 33 games v WC winning nations objectively good? Or ‘GOAT’ worthy? That is the question. Yes or no?

If you're going with WC goals alone, let's agree Klose is the GOAT?

They beat Argentina 2-0 in a WCQ in 2017. Now why don’t you do the same for Ronaldo’s favourite punching bag Luxembourg? Have they beaten a top team in the last 20 years? I seriously doubt it.

I've already pointed out Bolivia do okay at home cos of the altitude, Messi's record against them basically comes from their away games where they're nothing more than punching bags for all the other conmebol teams like those you mentioned in UEFA.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Mascherano led Argentina to the WC final whilst Messi didn't score a single goal in the KO stage in that WC

That’s probably why Mascherano won the golden ball. Still waiting for Ronaldo to win one of those by the way. In any major international tournament.

Debatable, qualifiers lead somewhere, friendlies don't

It’s not debatable. You’re trying to compare goals against accountants with a couple of the biggest rivalries in international football history.

No, it's a terrible statistic cos it implies goals and assists are worth the same.

They’re not worth the same but every assist indicates a goal. Therefore you can see that Messi has contributed much more than Ronaldo at that level. Like I said, if you want to examine the rest of the stats as well, be my guest. There’s no stat that helps your case.

If you're going with WC goals alone, let's agree Klose is the GOAT?

You’ve just given up now, which is not surprising. When did I talk about ‘World Cup goals alone’? Please answer the question I asked you. Preferably with no ‘but Messi!’ caveat, just a straight yes or no answer.

I've already pointed out Bolivia do okay at home cos of the altitude, Messi's record against them basically comes from their away games where they're nothing more than punching bags for all the other conmebol teams like those you mentioned in UEFA.

They’re still a better team than Lux. And there’s only one of them, Ronaldo has about a dozen terrible teams that he plays regularly and feasts on. You can cry about Messi and Hong Kong or whatever but how many times does he play those teams? Hardly ever.

 

[Cal?]

That’s probably why Mascherano won the golden ball. Still waiting for Ronaldo to win one of those by the way. In any major international tournament.

You're still going on about that award given to him that was basically a farce?

It’s not debatable. You’re trying to compare goals against accountants with a couple of the biggest rivalries in international football history.

Friendlies are friendlies and mean very little, Messi has never ever scored against Brazil in a competitive match despite the fact Argentina playing Brazil so often.

They’re not worth the same but every assist indicates a goal. Therefore you can see that Messi has contributed much more than Ronaldo at that level. Like I said, if you want to examine the rest of the stats as well, be my guest. There’s no stat that helps your case.

Messi has played much lesser teams in Copa KOs than Ronaldo has faced in Euro KOs, that much is clear.

You’ve just given up now, which is not surprising. When did I talk about ‘World Cup goals alone’? Please answer the question I asked you. Preferably with no ‘but Messi!’ caveat, just a straight yes or no answer.

You're going on and on about WC goals despite the very fact that Messi has a terrible record in the Messi v Ronaldo thread looking to score cheap points against Ronaldo using Suker/Luiz R's records in WCs, why don't you compare their records to Messi's?

They’re still a better team than Lux. And there’s only one of them, Ronaldo has about a dozen terrible teams that he plays regularly and feasts on. You can cry about Messi and Hong Kong or whatever but how many times does he play those teams? Hardly ever.

Are they at sea level? Lux have won 5 competitive games since the start of 2020 against Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Montenegro, Ireland & Azerbaijan again.
Bolivia's last 2 victories at sea-level came against Myanmar (2018) and Nicaragua (2017), sides much worse than those Lux beat. In the mean time they've lost to the likes of Curacao, UAE, Iraq & the likes in the last few years.

 

[NasirTimothy]

You're still going on about that award given to him that was basically a farce?

No ‘farce’ awards for Ronaldo then? Shame.

Friendlies are friendlies and mean very little, Messi has never ever scored against Brazil in a competitive match despite the fact Argentina playing Brazil so often.

Well his team has beaten Brazil in a major competition final held in Brazil (never happened before) and a competition in which he was the top scorer, top assister and best player. He’s also led his team to a final of another major competition held in Brazil. So I think he’s happy with that and his place in the history of that rivalry. Maradona never scored a major competitive goal against Brazil either, but like Messi, he did beat them in a major competition.

Messi has played much lesser teams in Copa KOs than Ronaldo has faced in Euro KOs, that much is clear.

That’s your excuse for his 3 goals? You’d have thought he could do better against the likes of Wales, Poland and the Czech Republic when he wasn’t facing Spain and Germany.

You're going on and on about WC goals despite the very fact that Messi has a terrible record in the Messi v Ronaldo thread looking to score cheap points against Ronaldo using Suker/Luiz R's records in WCs, why don't you compare their records to Messi's?

I knew you couldn’t do it. So funny. Cannot bring yourself to criticise your idol in any way shape or form without trying to bring up how Messi is also bad.

BTW, please try and improve your reading comprehension, I was talking about goals in the knock out rounds of the World Cup and Euros/Copa and goals against World Cup winning teams in any capacity. Not ‘World Cup goals’.

Here, let me help you out. Messi’s goal record in the knockout rounds of the World Cup and Copa is objectively awful and one of the worst aspects of his legacy. Your turn…..

Are they at sea level? Lux have won 5 competitive games since the start of 2020 against Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Montenegro, Ireland & Azerbaijan again.
Bolivia's last 2 victories at sea-level came against Myanmar (2018) and Nicaragua (2017), sides much worse than those Lux beat. In the mean time they've lost to the likes of Curacao, UAE, Iraq & the likes in the last few years.

Bolivia are a better team than Lux, please don’t tie yourself up in knots pursuing this nonsense.

 

[Cal?]

No ‘farce’ awards for Ronaldo then? Shame.

It is a shame that Messi wins awards he doesn't deserve yet Ronaldo doesn't win ones he does.

Well his team has beaten Brazil in a major competition final held in Brazil (never happened before) and a competition in which he was the top scorer, top assister and best player. He’s also led his team to a final of another major competition held in Brazil. So I think he’s happy with that and his place in the history of that rivalry. Maradona never scored a major competitive goal against Brazil either, but like Messi, he did beat them in a major competition.

Ronaldo was also topscorer in the Euro, a much better competition than the Copa. The fact remains Messi has never ever scored a goal against Brazil in a competitive game.

That’s your excuse for his 3 goals? You’d have thought he could do better against the likes of Wales, Poland and the Czech Republic when he wasn’t facing Spain and Germany.

Ronaldo is the all-time topscorer in the Euro in the history of the sport, if you want to talk exclusively about KO stage goals, let's talk about the CL (again)

Bet you don't want to go there.

I knew you couldn’t do it. So funny. Cannot bring yourself to criticise your idol in any way shape or form without trying to bring up how Messi is also bad.

BTW, please try and improve your reading comprehension, I was talking about goals in the knock out rounds of the World Cup and Euros/Copa and goals against World Cup winning teams in any capacity. Not ‘World Cup goals’.

Here, let me help you out. Messi’s goal record in the knockout rounds of the World Cup and Copa is objectively awful and one of the worst aspects of his legacy. Your turn…..

I just criticized his performance yesterday. Unlike you Messi fans, we don't always blame the team-mate, manager, etc for all the failures.

Ronaldo's record in WCs is awful for a player of his calibre.

Bolivia are a better team than Lux, please don’t tie yourself up in knots pursuing this nonsense.

Bolivia at sea-level are not better than Lux, in the last 5 years (2017-2021), they have played 32, won 2 (Nicaragua & Myanmar), lost against Curacao, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq and the likes.

Honestly, have a look at their record.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Ronaldo has 270 assists in his career (taking what I'm seeing for real here).

That's more than Xavi, Ozil, Ribery, Di Maria, Fabregas, or Steven Hoffman, which make up part of the 10 player list I'm seeing. Suarez has 3 more assists than him. Messi is over 300. Every other modern player you can think of is leagues behind Ronaldo in this particular aspect.

I just imagine what'd someone call Xavi then if Ronaldo is "incapable of getting assists".

If you're always in attacking areas for good teams, then you will end up with assists. For example, he got 3 "assists" in the Euros, one was a rebound to a goal, one was a shot that fell to someone else, they weren't passes. He's also played 1,100 odd games in his career, Ozil has played 670 odd for example.

 

[Camara]

Update

Ronaldo	Apps	Goals	Assists	Minutes	Goals per App	Minutes to Goal	Assists per App	Minutes to Assist	GA per App	Minutes to GA
Confed Cup	4​	2​	1​	390​	0,50​	195,00​	0,25​	390,00​	0,75​	130,00​
Euro Qualifier	35​	31​	3​	3030​	0,89​	97,74​	0,09​	1010,00​	0,97​	89,12​
Euro	25​	14​	7​	2154​	0,56​	153,86​	0,28​	307,71​	0,84​	102,57​
WC Qualifier	43​	36​	11​	3671​	0,84​	101,97​	0,26​	333,73​	1,09​	78,11​
WC	17​	7​	2​	1474​	0,41​	210,57​	0,12​	737,00​	0,53​	163,78​
Nations League	6​	5​	0​	531​	0,83​	106,20​	0,00​		0,83​	106,20​
Friendly	52​	20​	9​	3284​	0,38​	164,20​	0,17​	364,89​	0,56​	113,24​
Competitive	130​	95​	24​	11250​	0,73​	118,42​	0,18​	468,75​	0,92​	94,54​
Friendly	52​	20​	9​	3284​	0,38​	164,20​	0,17​	364,89​	0,56​	113,24​
Total	182​	115​	33​	14534​	0,63​	126,38​	0,18​	440,42​	0,81​	98,20​

Penalties: 16
Free Kicks: 10

Messi	Apps	Goals	Assists	Minutes	Goals per App	Minutes to Goal	Assists per App	Minutes to Assist	GA per App	Minutes to GA
Copa America	34​	13​	17​	2905​	0,38​	223,46​	0,50​	170,88​	0,88​	96,83​
WC Qualifier	56​	27​	10​	4763​	0,48​	176,41​	0,18​	476,30​	0,66​	128,73​
WC	19​	6​	5​	1624​	0,32​	270,67​	0,26​	324,80​	0,58​	147,64​
Friendly	47​	34​	15​	3713​	0,72​	109,21​	0,32​	247,53​	1,04​	75,78​
Competitive	109​	46​	32​	9292​	0,42​	202,00​	0,29​	290,38​	0,72​	119,13​
Friendly	47​	34​	15​	3713​	0,72​	109,21​	0,32​	247,53​	1,04​	75,78​
Total	156​	80​	47​	13005​	0,51​	162,56​	0,30​	276,70​	0,81​	102,40​

Penalties: 18
Free Kicks: 8

#################################################
Sorry for the format here:
GS = Group Stage; R16 = Round of 16; QF = Quarter-Finals; SF = Semi-Finals; 3P = 3rd place; F = Final
Row in each stage: Apps; Goals; Assists; Minutes
(X,Y) = (Goals, Assists)


Ronaldo in Euro:

Euro
GS		R16		QF		SF				F
14​		2​		4​		3​				2​
11​	Czech Republic (1,1) France (2,0) Germany (1,1) Greece (1,0) Hungary (2,0) Hungary (2,1) Netherlands (2,0) Austria (0,0) Denmark (0,0) Germany (0,0) Iceland (0,0) Russia (0,1) Spain (0,0) Turkey (0,0)	0​	Croatia (0,0) Belgium (0,0)	1​	Czech Republic (1,0) England (0,0) Germany (0,0) Poland (0,0)	2​	Netherlands (1,1) Wales (1,1) Spain (0,0)			Greece (0,0) France (0,0)
4​		0​		0​		2​				0​
1132​		210​		420​		277​				115​

Messi in Copa America

Copa America
GS				QF		SF		3P		F
17​				7​		5​		1​		4​
8​	Chile (1,0) Uruguay (0,1) Paraguay (0,0) Bolivia (2,1) Bolivia (0,0) Bolivia (0,0) Colombia (0,0) Colombia (0,0) Colombia (0,0) Costa Rica (0,2) Jamaica (0,0) Panama (3,0) Paraguay (1,0) Paraguay (1,0) Paraguay (0,0) United States (0,1) Uruguay (0,0)			3​	Ecuador (1,2) Colombia (0,0) Peru (1,0) Qatar (0,0) Uruguay (0,1) Venezuela (1,2) Venezuela (0,0)	2​	Colombia (0,1) Brazil (0,0) Mexico (1,0) Paraguay (0,3) United States (1,2)	0​	Chile (0,1)	0​	Chile (0,0) Chile (0,0) Brazil (0,0) Brazil (0,0)
5​				5​		6​		1​		0​
1338​				660​		450​		37​		420​

Ronaldo in WC

WC
GS		R16		QF		SF		3P		F
11​		3​		1​		1​		1​		0​
7​	Ghana (1,0) Iran (1,0) Morocco (1,0) North Korea (1,1) Spain (3,0) Angola (0,0) Brazil (0,0) Germany (0,0) Iran (0,0) Ivory Coast (0,0) United States (0,1)	0​	Netherlands (0,0) Spain (0,0) Uruguay (0,0)	0​	England (0,0)	0​	France (0,0)	0​	Germany (0,0)	0​
2​		0​		0​		0​		0​		0​
960​		214​		120​		90​		90​		0​

Messi in WC

WC
GS		R16		QF		SF		3P		F
11​	Bosnia-Herzegovina (1,0) Croatia (0,0) Greece (0,0) Iceland (0,0) Iran (1,0) Netherlands (0,0) Nigeria (2,0) Nigeria (1,0) Nigeria (0,0) Serbia-Montenegro (1,1) South Korea (0,0)	4​	Mexico (0,1) Mexico (0,0) Switzerland (0,1) France (0,2)	2​	Belgium (0,0) Germany (0,0)	1​	Netherlands (0,0)	0​		1​	Germany (0,0)
6​		0​		0​		0​		0​		0​
1​		4​		0​		0​		0​		0​
868​		326​		180​		120​		0​		120​

 

[Camara]

Example of selected "good teams" (just for example)

Ronaldo	Game type	Apps	Goals	Assists	Minutes	Goals per App	Minutes to Goal	Assists per App	Minutes to Assist	GA per App	Minutes to GA
Brazil	Competitive	1​	0​	0​	90​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Brazil	Friendly	2​	0​	0​	153​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Argentina	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Argentina	Friendly	2​	1​	0​	105​	0,50​	105,00​	0,00​		0,50​	105,00​
Uruguay	Competitive	1​	0​	0​	90​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Uruguay	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Chile	Competitive	1​	0​	0​	120​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Chile	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Colombia	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Colombia	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Germany	Competitive	5​	1​	1​	450​	0,20​	450,00​	0,20​	450,00​	0,40​	225,00​
Germany	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
France	Competitive	5​	2​	0​	385​	0,40​	192,50​	0,00​		0,40​	192,50​
France	Friendly	2​	0​	0​	144​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Italy	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Italy	Friendly	2​	0​	0​	135​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Spain	Competitive	4​	3​	0​	385​	0,75​	128,33​	0,00​		0,75​	128,33​
Spain	Friendly	3​	0​	0​	208​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
England	Competitive	2​	0​	0​	240​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
England	Friendly	1​	0​	0​	45​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Netherlands	Competitive	4​	3​	1​	281​	0,75​	93,67​	0,25​	281,00​	1,00​	70,25​
Netherlands	Friendly	2​	1​	0​	158​	0,50​	158,00​	0,00​		0,50​	158,00​
Croatia	Competitive	2​	0​	1​	210​	0,00​		0,50​	210,00​	0,50​	210,00​
Croatia	Friendly	2​	1​	1​	121​	0,50​	121,00​	0,50​	121,00​	1,00​	60,50​
Portugal	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Portugal	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Belgium	Competitive	2​	2​	1​	168​	1,00​	84,00​	0,50​	168,00​	1,50​	56,00​
Belgium	Friendly	1​	1​	0​	61​	1,00​	61,00​	0,00​		1,00​	61,00​

Messi	Game type	Apps	Goals	Assists	Minutes	Goals per App	Minutes to Goal	Assists per App	Minutes to Assist	GA per App	Minutes to GA
Brazil	Competitive	6​	0​	0​	540​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Brazil	Friendly	6​	5​	0​	540​	0,83​	108,00​	0,00​		0,83​	108,00​
Argentina	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Argentina	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Uruguay	Competitive	10​	5​	2​	858​	0,50​	171,60​	0,20​	429,00​	0,70​	122,57​
Uruguay	Friendly	1​	1​	1​	90​	1,00​	90,00​	1,00​	90,00​	2,00​	45,00​
Chile	Competitive	11​	5​	2​	991​	0,45​	198,20​	0,18​	495,50​	0,64​	141,57​
Chile	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Colombia	Competitive	11​	3​	3​	923​	0,27​	307,67​	0,27​	307,67​	0,55​	153,83​
Colombia	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Germany	Competitive	2​	0​	0​	210​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Germany	Friendly	2​	1​	0​	180​	0,50​	180,00​	0,00​		0,50​	180,00​
France	Competitive	1​	0​	2​	90​	0,00​		2,00​	45,00​	2,00​	45,00​
France	Friendly	1​	1​	0​	90​	1,00​	90,00​	0,00​		1,00​	90,00​
Italy	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Italy	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Spain	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Spain	Friendly	3​	2​	0​	254​	0,67​	127,00​	0,00​		0,67​	127,00​
England	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
England	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Netherlands	Competitive	2​	0​	0​	189​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Netherlands	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​
Croatia	Competitive	1​	0​	0​	90​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Croatia	Friendly	2​	2​	2​	180​	1,00​	90,00​	1,00​	90,00​	2,00​	45,00​
Portugal	Competitive	0​	0​	0​	0​
Portugal	Friendly	2​	1​	1​	135​	0,50​	135,00​	0,50​	135,00​	1,00​	67,50​
Belgium	Competitive	1​	0​	0​	90​	0,00​		0,00​		0,00​
Belgium	Friendly	0​	0​	0​	0​

 

[Gehrman]

If you're always in attacking areas for good teams, then you will end up with assists. For example, he got 3 "assists" in the Euros, one was a rebound to a goal, one was a shot that fell to someone else, they weren't passes. He's also played 1,100 odd games in his career, Ozil has played 670 odd for example.

True, although prime Ronaldo was more than a goalscorer and a good passer and a good crosser, he still falls short in the creative aspect compared to the other goats. I don't feel that using assists as the primary measure of creativity though is all that correct. Chances created could another one. It's easier to get more assists if you've got forwards who can finish off the chances as well. I'd say a difference between Messi and Ronaldo is the quality of their assists as well. If you look at the quality of them there is a world of difference.

Messi's 14 assists is alone are not half bad. Although I believe he has 17 in total but, maybe that's just my memory that's off.

 

[NasirTimothy]

It is a shame that Messi wins awards he doesn't deserve yet Ronaldo doesn't win ones he does.

Sounding awful Trumpish again. It’s all a conspiracy against your guy. The reasons for this conspiracy are not entirely clear of course. Nothing to do with him not actually performing that well at international tournaments or anything crazy like that…..

Ronaldo was also topscorer in the Euro, a much better competition than the Copa. The fact remains Messi has never ever scored a goal against Brazil in a competitive game.

I’ll tell that to all the Brazilian fans who were despondent when Messi lifted the Copa America trophy on Brazilian soil earlier this year. I’m sure it will cheer them up. “Hey, it’s OK that a Messi-led Argentina humiliated us in our own legendary Maracana stadium, cos Messi’s never scored against us in a competitive match!”

Ronaldo is the all-time topscorer in the Euro in the history of the sport, if you want to talk exclusively about KO stage goals, let's talk about the CL (again)

Because he’s played about 20 more games than everyone else, same as pretty much all his goalscoring records. Platini had 9 goals in 5 games. Ronaldo broke his record after playing 5 times as many games.

And for all those goals, few of them come when they’re most required, i.e. in knockout rounds.

Bet you don't want to go there.

Why would I? The Genesis of this portion of the debate in this wonderful thread was CR’s statpadding in international football. What’s the CL got to do with it?

I just criticized his performance yesterday. Unlike you Messi fans, we don't always blame the team-mate, manager, etc for all the failures.

I’ve never heard such a load of old nonsense in my entire life. Ronaldo fans do exactly that. Now it’s Ole and Man United’s fault. Last season it was ‘Pirlo’s trash and Juve are crap. Ronaldo’s doing his job.’ Conveniently leaving out the fact that he does nothing these days that is required of a forward player apart from poaching goals.

And what ‘criticism’ did you give about yesterday’s performance? I bet it was mild at best.

Ronaldo's record in WCs is awful for a player of his calibre.

Well done. Not actually an answer to the question I asked but we’re making progress.

Bolivia at sea-level are not better than Lux, in the last 5 years (2017-2021), they have played 32, won 2 (Nicaragua & Myanmar), lost against Curacao, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Iraq and the likes.

Honestly, have a look at their record.

Why are you restricting it to 2017? In the last 20 years, they have more wins away from that stadium than Luxembourg have away wins.

 

[Pocho]

Did Gerd Muller had his grupies claiming that he was better than Cruyff or Pelé? Great goalscorer, as Ronaldo is, but not as good or complete as those two.

 

[Gehrman]

Did Gerd Muller had his grupies claiming that he was better than Cruyff or Pelé? Great goalscorer, as Ronaldo is, but not as good or complete as those two.

No he was outshone by Beckenbauer. A defender. Because of Beckenbauers overall ability.

 

[Cal?]

Sounding awful Trumpish again. It’s all a conspiracy against your guy. The reasons for this conspiracy are not entirely clear of course. Nothing to do with him not actually performing that well at international tournaments or anything crazy like that…..

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...en-ball-award-was-a-mistake-says-sepp-blatter

I’ll tell that to all the Brazilian fans who were despondent when Messi lifted the Copa America trophy on Brazilian soil earlier this year. I’m sure it will cheer them up. “Hey, it’s OK that a Messi-led Argentina humiliated us in our own legendary Maracana stadium, cos Messi’s never scored against us in a competitive match!”

Come on, everyone knows that Messi was awful in that game, he led Argentina to humiliate Brazil in that final?

Because he’s played about 20 more games than everyone else, same as pretty much all his goalscoring records. Platini had 9 goals in 5 games. Ronaldo broke his record after playing 5 times as many games.

And for all those goals, few of them come when they’re most required, i.e. in knockout rounds.

You could say the same for Messi, he's played more than most too.

Why would I? The Genesis of this portion of the debate in this wonderful thread was CR’s statpadding in international football. What’s the CL got to do with it?

If it was so easy for European players due to those handful of poor sides according to you lot, one would have thought the all time international goalscorer chart would be full of Europeans. Fact: only 1 other European in the top 10

I’ve never heard such a load of old nonsense in my entire life. Ronaldo fans do exactly that. Now it’s Ole and Man United’s fault. Last season it was ‘Pirlo’s trash and Juve are crap. Ronaldo’s doing his job.’ Conveniently leaving out the fact that he does nothing these days that is required of a forward player apart from poaching goals.

And what ‘criticism’ did you give about yesterday’s performance? I bet it was mild at best.

Wasn't it always the managers and Higuain's fault that Messi never won anything for Argentina until a few months ago?

Well done. Not actually an answer to the question I asked but we’re making progress.

Why are you restricting it to 2017? In the last 20 years, they have more wins away from that stadium than Luxembourg have away wins.

My point is that Lux are currently better than Bolivia at sea-level, the fact they've only won 2 games against absolute dross in 5 years at sea-level already makes my point.

Lux won away at Ireland earlier this year.

 

[Gehrman]

I dont think ive ever seen such detailed discussion of players international career. We wouldnt have them if they hadnt sucked kinda donkey balls in the biggest international tournaments.

 

[Pocho]

No he was outshone by Beckenbauer. A defender. Because of Beckenbauers overall ability.

Exactly. Overall ability and goalscoring >>>>>>goalscoring. Pretty simple.

 

[Gehrman]

Exactly. Overall ability and goalscoring >>>>>>goalscoring. Pretty simple.

I'd argue that Ronaldo in his prime has been somewhat above Müller in ability though, but not quite up there with Pelé, Messi, Maradonna and Cryuff though, however you could argue his neverending consistentsy in goalscoring makes up for it.