Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to celebrate rare back-to-back victories for Manchester United! They analyse the late win in the Europa League vs. Rangers and then try and find things to analyse in a pretty dour game vs. Fulham. They also chat about the latest Marcus Rashford news, and look at the latest transfer news.
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Must be stressful for the haters to have to come up with new ways of downplaying Ronaldo's greatness every time he adds another highlight to the movie that is his life and career. At this point I'm assuming it's practically a full time job.
So GOAT is actually Maradona, and neither one of Messi and Ronaldo? This, despite Ronaldo and Messi having insane numbers consistently at club level and in the CL?
I'm sorry but I disagree that the World Cup is much more prestigious than the CL as you describe it. There are a number of reasons the World Cup is the most watched event in sport, as you've put it and it has very little to do with the quality of the competition, and more to do with how rare it comes around. There is an element of timing and luck involved in the World Cup, so to say.
When you're judging a player's greatness, I don't think you can really ignore consistency at the highest level and that's where their performance at the very highest level of football, in competitions where the best players play in, that is, the CL and a top European league should be weighted more than the World Cup.
I'm not getting in the Messi/Ronaldo debate. I'm just disagreeing with your opinions on the World Cup. Great spectacle, sure. Highest level of football? Nah.
The GOAT is Pele. He has no holes in his resume, unlike every other player. He literally ticks every box. Maradona is maybe second.
I think you’ve made some interesting points, but if the CL is so much better in terms of quality than the WC then why are Messi and Ronaldo so much better in the CL than the WC? Surely they should be ripping up that competition with its lower standard of football?
Well Maradona managed to get to back to back finals with teams that had no business being competitive so it shows that if you are really great, you can overcome that ‘lottery’ aspect to some degree.
Oh come on, Maradona's teams while not super teams filled with outstanding superstars in every position, but Argentina were super competitive, defensively organised teams, especially the 90s Italia one, and if VAR was there both of the times, they would not have reached the finals, due to Maradona getting sent off both times for handball.
I always found the GOAT conversation a bit weird, especially with people that are so sure of what they are saying when there's no real way of actually saying that the player "x" is the GOAT.
Yeah, Pele by all accounts seemed to be a great player (I never saw him play) but it's a completely different sport at this point. Different rules, technology, preparation, opposition, players, information available, tactics, etc.
To be able to somewhat accurately compare 2, 3 or 4 players they all have to have the same conditions. Even now the Ronaldo vs Messi is highly subjective and they play in the same era.
For me, the GOAT is not 1 player but a bracket of players that were above everyone else in what they did no matter what era they played. Saying that Messi, Pele, Ronaldo or Maradona are the number 1 is not a fact, it's a preference or biased statement.
Those teams had no superstars at all. They had good players but no stars. Look at the French, German, Brazilian etc teams of that time as comparison. There’s isn’t a single ‘Hall of Fame’ teammate that he had in those tournaments or with Napoli. That’s why he bears comparison with Pele despite being less successful and accomplished.
Who do you think it is?
Realistically speaking and as I said, it's a bracket of players and not 1 single player for me.
But if I'm going to base it on my own taste and from the players I saw, my preference is Ronaldo because he ticks everything in what I rate in a player. But there's is a difference between me rating him higher and saying he is the undisputable number 1 because there's no real way I can claim that.
You can say it's Messi, Maradona or Pele and be just as right as me saying Ronaldo. You can defend any of those players and have a legit claim why do you think they are the #1 based on their own achievements and impact they had in the history of the game, but in reality, it's really a matter of preference / biased opinion.
Comedian who won The Masked Singer
Agree about the only player that is undoubtly in the GOAT tier is Pele.
Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo both were a little underwhelming in WC.
I'd have both Pele, Maradona, Messi and Ronaldo in my top tier of GOAT too, and agree any ranking among the 4 is more of a matter of preference / based opinion. All four of them of could have a strong claim on their own:
Pele - Most decorated player ever, with "3" WC and "1000+" goals. His footballing is ahead of his time, with a well mix of athleticism, skills and productivity. No one clicks more box than him when we are setting any criteria for GOAT - be it WC success, club success, trophies won or indivudual stats etc. He is biggest football icon in history.
Maradona - 86 WC will be forever remembered as the absolute highest peak a footballer could ever reach. 2 Serie A titles with Napoli in mid late 80s is also legendary. Probably the best ever dribbler/playmaker too, and probably the only player ever who is capable of carrying the team on his own at the highest level to dominate the biggest competition and winning the biggest trophy.
Messi - 6 times Ballon D'or winner, probably won more motm out of any players out there, and probably the most consistence performer of all time, who is also among the most elite goalscorer, dribbler and playmaker of all time. If we choose the best ever player in terms of performance, productivity and consistency, Messi would probably be ahead of everyone else.
Ronaldo - 5 times CL winner and 5 times Ballon D'or winner, holding all time record of most career goal, most CL goal and most international goal. Revolutionise inverted wing forward role as main goalscorer. Probably the most clutch player ever and best winner in modern time, with unmatched longevity, and greatest mentality out of all footballers.
GOATS= Pele, CR7, Maradona, Messi ... in whatever order you prefer.
I think this excellently summarises the cases for all four TBH.
Wonderful write up buddy
Because ultimately, football is a team game and Ronaldo and Messi play in national sides that are not good enough. That's why all these discussions on who is the best player has never interested me.
The World Cup really matters in GOAT debates because it’s the only thing all the candidates have played in somewhat similar conditions.
Pele never played in Europe and Maradona barely played in the European Cup, never mind starred in it.
But all 4 played in the World Cup and Messi and Ronaldo have actually had more chances to excel in it at this point than Pele or Maradona did.
Also the talent is concentrated at the very top with super teams in Messi/Ronaldo era more than any point in the history of football. I don’t know how it proves you’re a better player that you can pick your choice of team to win a competition vs not being able to pick your team/having to grind out victory against the odds. CL might be the highest standard now but it’s by far the easiest for a top player to win, just join the best 2-3 teams. That’s why the World Cup is more special, you have to make do with what you have. It’s the purest form of football.
Pele never played in Europe and Maradona barely played in the European Cup, never mind starred in it.
But all 4 played in the World Cup and Messi and Ronaldo have actually had more chances to excel in it at this point than Pele or Maradona did.
Also the talent is concentrated at the very top with super teams in Messi/Ronaldo era more than any point in the history of football. I don’t know how it proves you’re a better player that you can pick your choice of team to win a competition vs not being able to pick your team/having to grind out victory against the odds. CL might be the highest standard now but it’s by far the easiest for a top player to win, just join the best 2-3 teams. That’s why the World Cup is more special, you have to make do with what you have. It’s the purest form of football.
Portugal’s team in Ronaldo’s time has been as good their team in 1966 World Cup but Ronaldo didn’t score 9 goals in one tournament like Eusebio did (despite well being capable of it). Argentina’s team in 2014 wasn’t far off 1986 team but Maradona played his best ever football then and Messi, although he played quite well, didn’t by his high standards. Messi and Ronaldo national teams have not been chumps throughout their careers, this isn’t a George Best situation, most have been more than good enough to compete.
Almost every era had super teams who dominated the scenes, just because people forgot about Pele's Santos and Brazil, the Inter Milan and AC Milan of the 60s, Eusebio's Benfica, Di Stefano's Real Madrid, Puskas's Real Madrid and Hungary, Beckenbauer and Muller's Germany and Bayern, Cruyff's Ajax, Glacticos, Sachi's MIlan, Liverpool of 70s and 80s, does not mean this is something new phenomena. Best players always played at the best clubs ever since football went global with European cup(previous version of UCL).
Also this grind out victory thing is very much romancised because of Maradona having one out of the world tournament, his Napoli story is great too, but people often forget that team invested heavily, and brought many players before Maradona would win the league, almost ignoring the fact is he barely spectacular did anything in Europe. If he was playing today, people would be calling him UCL choker. But he was in an era, where spectacle and romance ruled heavily.
And nothing against him, he did what he could do. It is just that nostalgia protects people. And only great moments are remembered.
Their National sides are good enough IMO. Messi has reached a World Cup final, which his team lost narrowly. Ronaldo has reached a World Cup semi final, which his team lost narrowly. Both are continental champions. We’re not talking about George Weah with Liberia here.
Their teams are certainly good enough for them to have managed a solitary goal in the KO rounds.
Agree 100%
It needs to be pointed out that there is a massive advantage for the players at the superclubs in this post-Bosman era.
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This is hyperbole and probably said because you are a Ronaldo fanatic thus not wanting to give this to Messi so just went with Maradona WC 86 instead. As this is the only other peak that comes close.
I mean saying this was the best peak when Messi scored 91 goals and got 29 assists in 69 games in the 2012 calendar year.
I am sorry but which ever way you want to spin it, that 2012 year for Messi is the absolute peak a footballer could ever reach.
Absolutely. Messi was good in 2014 and I think he deserved the best player award. You could argue that James deserved it but he was never going to get it because his team didn’t get far enough.
But the point is that Messi, although very good in that tournament, did not play at his absolute best. Plus the brilliant goals that he started the competition with kind of dried up as Argentina got deeper into the rounds.
Ronaldo was only 21 when Portugal reached the semi final with a very good team in 2006, but that’s more than old enough to make an impact.
I know he’s a Ronaldo fan but I thought he was pretty fair in this instance in all honesty.
I don’t think it’s hyperbole at all to reference Maradona’s 86 tournament in that way. Of course a calendar year tally is a different thing and that was an astonishing achievement by LM. However, he was surrounded by some of the best players in history at that time, which Maradona certainly wasn’t.
Well for me Maradona has reach the "absolute peak" a footballer could ever reach, nothing hyperbole about this, just simply the way it is, his performance/impact/individual brilliance/dominance/achievement/legacy in 86 WC is simply unmatched/unrivalled throughout history.
Messi has probably maintained the highest peak in longer period than any player ever did though, or having the best individual season ever, but he hasn't quite "carry" his team to win anything "major" in the year he scored 91 goals and 29 assists, even with better supporting cast as compared to Maradona's team. So in some way it is not as "perfect" as Maradona's 86 WC, and not the "absolute peak" ever for me, but rather the "most productive peak" ever, or something.
Messi vs Ronaldo, let us for a moment talk about Messi and Ronaldo.
For all the talk that they were the reasons why Barcelona and Juve were in mess, it seems like, it was because of them, both the sides were competitive in any space in last season(for Juve) and for god knows how many seasons(Barcelona).
I know Juve won for 8 straight seasons, but last season they were really underwhelming and Cristiano still managed to win the Capocannoniere and the matches were he could not be at his best, they lost.
And about Messi, well Barcelona were a serious threat, for most of the last three four years just because they had him. Especially the ending of the Valverde tenure, Quique_Setién and Koeman's whole tenure.
For all the talk that they were the reasons why Barcelona and Juve were in mess, it seems like, it was because of them, both the sides were competitive in any space in last season(for Juve) and for god knows how many seasons(Barcelona).
I know Juve won for 8 straight seasons, but last season they were really underwhelming and Cristiano still managed to win the Capocannoniere and the matches were he could not be at his best, they lost.
And about Messi, well Barcelona were a serious threat, for most of the last three four years just because they had him. Especially the ending of the Valverde tenure, Quique_Setién and Koeman's whole tenure.
The World Cup is so pure that three national teams have won 62% of all trophies.
Bit shortsighted to say the WC is the absolute pinnacle and disregard everything else, just because of viewing numbers. Let’s see, we’ll take the most popular sport, then every 4 years we’ll play nations against each other on a global stage. Hmmm, will people watch this? Of course this will be watched by the WHOLE WORLD, but that has more to do with nationalism than with football. Just look at your scrubby aunt who joins every 4 years to get into the excitement, but still doesn’t know what an offside is.
Now, I’m not saying the WC is shit. It still has the best players competing against each other. But it’s also still a cup competition, where everything can happen and where you also need that little bit of luck. In a split second you can get a red card, or a hand of God.
It’s not shortsighted, it’s a fact.
I never said the words that you quoted, although I believe I agreed with the post. Please ascribe quotations to the correct person.
I'd say when you take into account trophies won and goals scored then 2011 and 2015 were pretty incredible for Messi as well. I still consider his goal against Real Madrid in the CL semifinal as the best ever CL goal. And he had a stellar final as well. I would agree that Ronaldo and Messi lack iconic world cups, but for me it's not the end all be all of the discussion.
Yet no other player in history has them stats when most of the best players of all time players in great teams.
Yeah but Maradona never won the European Cup while playing in Europe. That and the fact that Messi and Ronaldo won multiple CL trophies and league titles along with the most ridiculous goal and assist tallies in European football history. Saying "oh but they didn't win the World Cup" is a bit daft as Cruyff, Di Stefano, Best and some other all time greats didn't either and that doesn't go against them.
They would probably be rated higher if they did win the world cup. Of course someone like Best never had the chance. For me it's not the most important thing, that's for sure, but it's for sure a crown jewel in a great players career, but it's also slightly a lottery. If Messi had decided to play for Spain instead of Argentina, he'd probably without doubt had 2 euros and a WC to his name. Maradonna is an outlier for sure and yeah he never won a European Cup.
Not true, Pele had a calendar year (1959) with 127 goals. It’s just the the tour goals (against teams like Real Madrid, Milan and Inter) were not counted under our modern conception of what constitutes ‘official’ goals. Gerd Muller also scored 80 something back in the 70s so Messi’s numbers are not necessarily unique.
Maradona played at a time when you had to be the champions of your country to enter the European Cup. Nowadays, if you’re at a big club you will play in the CL 15 times.
Re Cruyff, DiStefano and Best, it’s not daft and it does go against them if you’re talking about the greatest player of all time. Best is the only one of those 3 who didn’t have a strong enough national team to compete, but he’s not in the GOAT discussion really for other reasons.
GOAT Post
2012? The same years where Barca basically won feck all?
How about Ronaldo's 10 goals in 5 matches from QF onwards in 2016/17 CL?
Those 5 games was the most dominating performances ever.
I even remember the Messi brigade getting all giddy about Messi having scored 11 goals whilst Ronaldo 2 in that season's CL before the QF stage.
Football wasn't global until the 90s with the creation of cable TV, the European Cup wasn't global in the 70s and 80s.
There wasn't cable TV in the 70s and 80s, and there were only 3 foreigners allowed in the starting Xl.
Japanese, koreans,and indians can now watch live PL games in their countries, impossible in the 70s and 80s.
The fact that Maradona was considered best player in the word(along with Platini) when he wasn't even playing in a big european team says everything.
Imagine right now a player from Sevilla or Villareal(Europa League winners) being considered the best in the world.
Football in the 70s and 80s was even, because there wasn't a huge gap between big team and midtable teams in terms of attracting great players. Super talented Zico never played for a big italian team for example, he went to Udinese.
Peak Messi overruns peak Ronaldo.
Peak Ronaldo was in his first years at Madrid, people is hyping last Ronaldo years in Spain because of the CL wins, but his peak was before he won the tri-Champions in a row.
There is a misconception that peak performances = trophies...so whenever a player win trophies they assume that he individually played better than when he didn't win anything.
Messi played Copa America 2021 as good as he did in Copas 2016-2019, but i saw some people assuming he played better in 2021 just because he won the trophy.
Same energy with Cr7 at Real Madrid, people understimate how good was Cr7 in his first years in Spain in terms of dribble,vision, and pace because he barely won any trophy and Real Madrid got outperformed by a monstrous Barcelona.
I remember seeing breakdown of peak ronaldo (early years in madrid) against Messi, Ronaldo individually was equal if not better than Messi in most things bar dribbling and assists (Ronaldo had equal chance creation stats tho).
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