Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Ronaldo is not an underperformer in league competitions.

As I think I've said many times, I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. But the level of argument that people use here sometimes is shocking. Completely lacking in common sense, logic, and even a basic sense of mathematics. I beg you, please, just stop, take a remedial math class. Stop killing the concept of 'numbers.' What did they ever do to you?
 
kc7 said:
So, now, Ronaldo, an underperformer in league competitions (2 La Liga wins in 9 years)
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How is he an underperformer in league play? He scored 311 goals in 292 games during his time in la liga (the best goalscoring ratio in the competitions history); 30+ hat-tricks and had the most assists for Real Madrid ever in the league. Also, he had the most match winning goals ever in a single season (17) when Real won the league in the 2011/12 campaign. So Madrid only winning the league twice in his spell there doesn’t automatically = him being poor in league play. I think some people fail to grasp very basic concepts of team sport.

Henry is often regarded as the best player to player in the premier league since its inception, yet he only won 2 leagues in 8 years at Arsenal and his numbers were nowhere close to Ronaldo’s league numbers at Madrid. And he didn’t even have to compete with arguably the greatest club side ever where you would usually need 96+ points to win the league most seasons.

Also using your logic, Messi has been absolutely diabolical in the CL as he has only 1 title in the last 10 years of playing in the competition; perennially being elimimated embarrassingly by the likes of Bayern, Liverpool, PSG et al.
 
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MrEleson said:
How is he an underperformer in league play? He scored 311 goals in 292 games during his time in la liga (the best goalscoring ratio in the competitions history); 30+ hat-tricks and had the most assists for Real Madrid ever in the league. Real Madrid only winning the league twice in his spell there doesn’t automatically = him being poor in league play. I think some people fail to grasp very basic concepts of team sport.

Henry is often regarded as the best player to player in the premier league since its inception, yet he only won 2 leagues in 8 years at Arsenal and his numbers were nowhere close to Ronaldo’s league numbers at Madrid. And he didn’t even have to compete with arguably the greatest club side ever where you would usually need 96+ points to win the league most seasons.

Also using your logic, Messi has been absolutely diabolical in the CL as he has only 1 title in the last 10 years of playing in the competition; perennially being elimimated embarrassingly by the likes of Bayern, Liverpool, PSG et al.
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Messi has 2 CL titles in the last 10 years. But you're right, Ronaldo obviously has a phenomenal goal scoring record in the league.
 
I somehow missed that the post says Sergio Ramos does not get credit for Real Madrid's CL winning runs.
 
Gehrman said:
Messi has 2 CL titles in the last 10 years. But you're right, Ronaldo obviously has a phenomenal goal scoring record in the league.
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I was more counting from the start of the 11/12 season rather than end of 10/11 season since we’re almost at the start of the 21/22 season.

In any case, it’ll definitely be at least 10/11 years by the time he wins next even if that is this coming season.
 
There's a limit to how much an individual player can affect a team, and perhaps more importantly, a club.

Barcelona have generally underachieved in the CL. It took the most favorable conditions ever (best player in the world, best squad in the world, best manager in the world) for them to win 2 titles in 4 seasons.

If Messi had transferred to Real Madrid in 2008 he would have won the CL 8 times by now. But he'd only have won like 3 league titles.
 
MrEleson said:
Henry is often regarded as the best player to player in the premier league since its inception, yet he only won 2 leagues in 8 years at Arsenal and his numbers were nowhere close to Ronaldo’s league numbers at Madrid. And he didn’t even have to compete with arguably the greatest club side ever where you would usually need 96+ points to win the league most seasons.
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I think that goes to show that numbers aren’t enough.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
There's a limit to how much an individual player can affect a team, and perhaps more importantly, a club.

Barcelona have generally underachieved in the CL. It took the most favorable conditions ever (best player in the world, best squad in the world, best manager in the world) for them to win 2 titles in 4 seasons.

If Messi had transferred to Real Madrid in 2008 he would have won the CL 8 times by now. But he'd only have won like 3 league titles.
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We don't really know that. It certainly would have helped Barcelona's chances if they had hired WC managers and well didn't botch all their transfers when Neymar was sold. Whether he would have won 8 CL's with Madrid and 3 league titles I don't know. In that imaginary scenario Ronaldo would be playing for Barca and we don't know what would have happened.
 
Jericho said:
I think that goes to show that numbers aren’t enough.
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When the numbers are that unprecedented you just can’t look past them. It would simply be ludicrous. He was essentially guaranteeing more than a goal every single game for a decade not to mention assists too. The impact is unquestionable. Even beyond numbers, there’s not anything that Arsenal Henry was better than peak Madrid Ronaldo at.
 
Daysleeper said:
yes, and was painfully mediocre or worse in the other 4 CL finals. Half his goal scoring came in one match out of 6.

and for the record I don’t see Messi as the greatest CL finals performer either
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This is not really true.

He was awesome in 2008, by far the best player in the pitch. He was quite good the following year, the only United player who threatened Barca (and he threatened them several times). He was not good against Atletico, despite his penalty in the last minute. The following final against Atletico was a borefest, with Simeone sucking the life out of the game. Still Ronaldo scored the final penalty when the pressure is the highest, so overall it was a good match for him. He was decent against Liverpool, he was fantastic against Juve.

I would say that he was mediocre only in the first Atletico final, so 1 out of 6.

And when it comes to semis and quarters, he is just far ahead of everyone. Ronaldo in 2017 KO of UCL is something that we might not ever see again, no other player came close to having similar effect.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Ronaldo is not an underperformer in league competitions.

As I think I've said many times, I think Messi is better than Ronaldo. But the level of argument that people use here sometimes is shocking. Completely lacking in common sense, logic, and even a basic sense of mathematics. I beg you, please, just stop, take a remedial math class. Stop killing the concept of 'numbers.' What did they ever do to you?
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7 league titles in which he was the best player in his team = mediocre.

Some people here have totally lost any common sense, if they ever had it in the first place.
 
Revan said:
7 league titles in which he was the best player in his team = mediocre.

Some people here have totally lost any common sense, if they ever had it in the first place.
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Well the 2 for Juventus inflate the numbers. Going to Juve guaranteed him league titles. After all, they had won 7 league titles in a row prior to Ronaldo joining. Winning the league with Juve is not much of an achievement. When he joined it was almost like joining Celtic in the SPL as up until last season they were guaranteed to win the title 99 times out of 100.

7 league titles out of 19 seasons is not actually that great considering he played for Man United, Real Madrid and Juventus for 18 of them seasons. Without the 2 inflated Serie A titles it would be 5 league titles in 17 seasons.

The league titles number he has won is pretty mediocre for a player who is deemed top 5 of all time, number 1 by some. Especially as he played for the biggest club in England, Spain and Italy.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Well the 2 for Juventus inflate the numbers. Going to Juve guaranteed him league titles. After all, they had won 7 league titles in a row prior to Ronaldo joining. Winning the league with Juve is not much of an achievement. When he joined it was almost like joining Celtic in the SPL as up until last season they were guaranteed to win the title 99 times out of 100.

7 league titles out of 19 seasons is not actually that great considering he played for Man United, Real Madrid and Juventus for 18 of them seasons. Without the 2 inflated Serie A titles it would be 5 league titles in 17 seasons.

The league titles number he has won is pretty mediocre for a player who is deemed top 5 of all time, number 1 by some. Especially as he played for the biggest club in England, Spain and Italy.
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If the 2 league titles where he was topscorer for his team are inflated. What does that make of Messi’s first 2 league titles where he played a combined 24 games across the 2 seasons and was mostly a sub? You can then start saying 1 of his 4 CLs is also inflated since he didn’t feature in the entire KO for it and wasn’t even his team’s talisman like Ronaldo was in every CL he won.

3 CLs in 17 seasons and more particularly 1 in last 10 seasons is pretty mediocre for a player who is deemed top 5 of all time easily and number one by so many.
 
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Do the people that base Ronaldo being better than Messi on Ronaldo performing in different leagues apply his to other players? For example do you think Modric is better than Iniesta because he did it in Tottenham and Madrid and Iniesta only did it in Barcelona
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Do the people that base Ronaldo being better than Messi on Ronaldo performing in different leagues apply his to other players? For example do you think Modric is better than Iniesta because he did it in Tottenham and Madrid and Iniesta only did it in Barcelona
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Difference is that Modric was never the best player in the league. His level amplified significantly when he moved to Madrid. Ronaldo was historic wherever he went. He was by far the best player in the premier league winning every thing available both collectively and individually there and then went to be by far the best player in la liga (alongside Messi), winning everything there, breaking records like he did in England.

Ronaldo would easily make both an all-time premier league XI and all-time la liga XI and that’s rare.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Well the 2 for Juventus inflate the numbers. Going to Juve guaranteed him league titles. After all, they had won 7 league titles in a row prior to Ronaldo joining. Winning the league with Juve is not much of an achievement. When he joined it was almost like joining Celtic in the SPL as up until last season they were guaranteed to win the title 99 times out of 100.

7 league titles out of 19 seasons is not actually that great considering he played for Man United, Real Madrid and Juventus for 18 of them seasons. Without the 2 inflated Serie A titles it would be 5 league titles in 17 seasons.

The league titles number he has won is pretty mediocre for a player who is deemed top 5 of all time, number 1 by some. Especially as he played for the biggest club in England, Spain and Italy.
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No, they don't. At least not more than Messi's first two titles when he was a sub, or the title in 2009 when Real were goddamn awful.

'7 league titles are not great'? Compared to what other great player? Cruyff won 10, I give you that (but then you would probably say that they are inflated cause 7 came with Ajax). Di Stefano won 8 in Europe, and 13 in total (who knows the level of competition in South America, no video footage). Messi won 10. Beckenbauer won 5. Maradona won 2 in Europe, and one in Argentina. Pele won 16, but they are probably worth half cause you had two competitions every year (Braziliero and Paulista, imagine having winter and a summer champion). Platini and Charlton won each 3, what total losers. And George Best won 2, pathetic. Luis Ronaldo? One. By the way, all these players (except Maradona at Napoli) played for pretty good clubs, the top dogs in their country.

To say that seven league titles are not that great when in each and every one of them he was the team's top scorer and the best player is beyond absurd. A similar level of insanity that is used in the other side of the conversation, that Messi's record in UCL is not that great, only three UCL wins (and an honorary one when he didn't play past 1/8th of the final). Both Cristiano's record in the league and Messi's record in UCL are awesome, topped only by Ronaldo's record in UCL and Messi's in the league. Just because they were a bit less successful in one competition than in the other, doesn't mean that they were not great in the other.
 
Revan said:
No, they don't. At least not more than Messi's first two titles when he was a sub, or the title in 2009 when Real were goddamn awful.

'7 league titles are not great'? Compared to what other great player? Cruyff won 10, I give you that (but then you would probably say that they are inflated cause 7 came with Ajax). Di Stefano won 8 in Europe, and 13 in total (who knows the level of competition in South America, no video footage). Messi won 10. Beckenbauer won 5. Maradona won 2 in Europe, and one in Argentina. Pele won 16, but they are probably worth half cause you had two competitions every year (Braziliero and Paulista, imagine having winter and a summer champion). Platini and Charlton won each 3, what total losers. And George Best won 2, pathetic. Luis Ronaldo? One. By the way, all these players (except Maradona at Napoli) played for pretty good clubs, the top dogs in their country.

To say that seven league titles are not that great when in each and every one of them he was the team's top scorer and the best player is beyond absurd. A similar level of insanity that is used in the other side of the conversation, that Messi's record in UCL is not that great, only three UCL wins (and an honorary one when he didn't play past 1/8th of the final). Both Cristiano's record in the league and Messi's record in UCL are awesome, topped only by Ronaldo's record in UCL and Messi's in the league. Just because they were a bit less successful in one competition than in the other, doesn't mean that they were not great in the other.
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It is obviously a dumb argument but it proves how dumb it is to rate players based on team trophies to begin with. Cristiano's peak occurred during his worst phase in terms of trophies - when he was at his best for Madrid he won almost nothing of note. It's a lazy argument and result oriented thinking. It's pretty much an admission that you can't tell what makes a player great by watching him play and instead proceed to just look at a statistic that is worthless without context. I wish people would just stop this nonsense. There are enough arguments for Cristiano that nobody would need to endlessly cite his trophy count or goal statistics, preferably even in very specific cohorts.
 
Cal? said:
Half Messi's goalscoring in CL finals came in 1 match. :lol:
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yup and that’s why I said I don’t see Messi as a goat finals performer at all either, covered that earlier. I would definitely take the average Messi finals performance over the average Ronaldo finals performance
 
Daysleeper said:
yup and that’s why I said I don’t see Messi as a goat finals performer at all either, covered that earlier. I would definitely take the average Messi finals performance over the average Ronaldo finals performance
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Ronaldo wasn’t fit in 2014 & 16. He was good in most of the finals he played.

 
Revan said:
This is not really true.

He was awesome in 2008, by far the best player in the pitch. He was quite good the following year, the only United player who threatened Barca (and he threatened them several times). He was not good against Atletico, despite his penalty in the last minute. The following final against Atletico was a borefest, with Simeone sucking the life out of the game. Still Ronaldo scored the final penalty when the pressure is the highest, so overall it was a good match for him. He was decent against Liverpool, he was fantastic against Juve.

I would say that he was mediocre only in the first Atletico final, so 1 out of 6.

And when it comes to semis and quarters, he is just far ahead of everyone. Ronaldo in 2017 KO of UCL is something that we might not ever see again, no other player came close to having similar effect.
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he was mediocre in 2014, 2018, 2016 and 2009 final with 2016 being his best if the ones mentioned. And whatever happened prior to the finals is irrelevant to this convo, we are discussing finals performances in CL only where Ronaldo has been a bit lacklustre more often than not.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Well the 2 for Juventus inflate the numbers. Going to Juve guaranteed him league titles. After all, they had won 7 league titles in a row prior to Ronaldo joining.
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If you applied this reasoning consistently then you would not be saying he underperformed in league because of his RM titles. Real Madrid as a club have been underperforming in domestic competition for two decades now, a trend that neither Ronaldo nor prime Mourinho nor Zidane nor anybody has been able to fix. That is the explanation for why he only had 2 titles in 9 seasons.

He basically traded "coast on some league titles" for "have a better chance of CL dynasty" (since RM overachieve there, a lot) and it worked out.
 
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MrEleson said:
Difference is that Modric was never the best player in the league. His level amplified significantly when he moved to Madrid. Ronaldo was historic wherever he went. He was by far the best player in the premier league winning every thing available both collectively and individually there and then went to be by far the best player in la liga (alongside Messi), winning everything there, breaking records like he did in England.

Ronaldo would easily make both an all-time premier league XI and all-time la liga XI and that’s rare.
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Ronaldo was completely dominated in La Liga during his time at Real only winning 2 league titles vs Messi's 6 titles. He only won two Copa Del Rey vs Messi's 6 during his time there.
So, he has a total of 4 trophies out of 18 in 9 seasons in Spain, which is very poor. It is really beyond absurd to call him the best in La Liga in the presence of Messi, maybe you meant second best by a distance.
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
If you applied this reasoning consistently then you would not be saying he underperformed in league because of his RM titles. Real Madrid as a club have been underperforming in domestic competition for two decades now, a trend that neither Ronaldo nor prime Mourinho nor Zidane nor anybody has been able to fix. That is the explanation for why he only had 2 titles in 9 seasons.

He basically traded "coast on some league titles" for "have a better chance of CL dynasty" (since RM overachieve there, a lot) and it worked out.
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Absolute rubbish, whatever madrid were like in the league pre Ronaldo has no bearing over his own time during that nine year span.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Well the 2 for Juventus inflate the numbers. Going to Juve guaranteed him league titles. After all, they had won 7 league titles in a row prior to Ronaldo joining. Winning the league with Juve is not much of an achievement. When he joined it was almost like joining Celtic in the SPL as up until last season they were guaranteed to win the title 99 times out of 100.

7 league titles out of 19 seasons is not actually that great considering he played for Man United, Real Madrid and Juventus for 18 of them seasons. Without the 2 inflated Serie A titles it would be 5 league titles in 17 seasons.

The league titles number he has won is pretty mediocre for a player who is deemed top 5 of all time, number 1 by some. Especially as he played for the biggest club in England, Spain and Italy.
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I don't want to go too deep into that topic, but if you really want to count out those "inflated" numbers", you have got to count out those 2 league titles Messi won in his first 2 season with Barca, and 1 CL too, as they were actually won by Ronaldinho and Co, Messi only played aa bit part sub role in majority of games over that period.

Hence this will leave 8 league titles from Messi vs 7 from Ronaldo, and 3 CL from Messi vs 5 from Ronaldo.
 
RedRonaldo said:
I don't want to go too deep into that topic, but if you really want to count out those "inflated" numbers", you have got to count out those 2 league titles Messi won in his first 2 season with Barca, and 1 CL too, as they were actually won by Ronaldinho and Co, Messi only played aa bit part sub role in majority of games over that period.

Hence this will leave 8 league titles from Messi vs 7 from Ronaldo, and 3 CL from Messi vs 5 from Ronaldo.
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No, that would leave 8 league titles from Messi vs 5 from Ronaldo.

Also, using that logic, we can also count out 2016 EC win for Ronaldo as the cup was literally won by Eder and his co in Portugal defense. That would leave Ronaldo trophyless with Portugal.
 
Daysleeper said:
he was mediocre in 2014, 2018, 2016 and 2009 final with 2016 being his best if the ones mentioned. And whatever happened prior to the finals is irrelevant to this convo, we are discussing finals performances in CL only where Ronaldo has been a bit lacklustre more often than not.
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Checks support team, ignore his opinion.
 
Revan said:
Checks support team, ignore his opinion.
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dumb take, if you actually watched those matches you would know. Tons of player ratings from each of those games agree. The fact is he’s been mediocre at best in more than half his cl finals. It is what it is. Still the greatest CL player ever
 
Revan said:
Checks support team, ignore his opinion.
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Then the fact that this argument is being held on a united forum could form the basis for him to ignore your opinion. It doesn't work that way
 
kc7 said:
Ronaldo was completely dominated in La Liga during his time at Real only winning 2 league titles vs Messi's 6 titles. He only won two Copa Del Rey vs Messi's 6 during his time there.
So, he has a total of 4 trophies out of 18 in 9 seasons in Spain, which is very poor. It is really beyond absurd to call him the best in La Liga in the presence of Messi, maybe you meant second best by a distance.
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Messi had the better team for most of that period. They had similar stats throughout and even in their direct H2H Ronaldo had more goals in a clasico at the camp Nou while Messi had more at the bernebeau.
 
Daysleeper said:
Absolute rubbish, whatever madrid were like in the league pre Ronaldo has no bearing over his own time during that nine year span.
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Of course it does. It's literally how analysis works.
Gehrman said:
Real Madrid won 2 La Liga in a row from 2006-2008.
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They did. That was the only period of time in the last twenty years in which their president wasn't Florentino Perez. Wonder what that could mean.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Of course it does. It's literally how analysis works.

They did. That was the only period of time in the last twenty years in which their president wasn't Florentino Perez. Wonder what that could mean.
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Maybe it's to do with the strength of opposition(although they should be finishing ahead of Athletico) considering they had one of the most stacked squads of all time and elite managers.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Of course it does. It's literally how analysis works.

They did. That was the only period of time in the last twenty years in which their president wasn't Florentino Perez. Wonder what that could mean.
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Perez has been amazing, don’t pretend otherwise. And that’s not how analysis works. Just because something happened in a vacuum doesn’t mean it will be that way forever
 
Gehrman said:
Maybe it's to do with the strength of opposition(although they should be finishing ahead of Athletico) considering they had one of the most stacked squads of all time and elite managers.
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The quality of the opposition doesn't help, but it is primarily because of issues within the club.

Real Madrid's title defenses have been mostly terrible recently. Mourinho followed a 100 point season with an 85 point one. Zidane followed a 93 point season with a 76 point one. That's just abysmal and really can't be explained by the opposition being good. This season was the best title defense since the 2008 title, but the 84 points were still lower than what usually wins you a title.

Daysleeper said:
Perez has been amazing, don’t pretend otherwise.
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During Perez's second stint as president, Real Madrid have only won 1 more league title than Atletico Madrid. Should Atletico repeat the title this season, Real Madrid will be joint 2nd in a 2-team league. That is indeed amazing.
 
kc7 said:
No, that would leave 8 league titles from Messi vs 5 from Ronaldo.

Also, using that logic, we can also count out 2016 EC win for Ronaldo as the cup was literally won by Eder and his co in Portugal defense. That would leave Ronaldo trophyless with Portugal.
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This makes little sense. Messi barely contributed for his first 2 league wins. Ronaldo was topscorer and most important player in the team for his 2 league wins with Juve. The 2 scenarios don’t equal each other at all.

The portugal point is senseless as well considering Ronaldo scored or assisted 6 of Portugal’s 9 goals scored that tournament. If we’re going by finals performance then Messi is trophyless for Argentina too,
 
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