Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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The holy trinity 68 said:
Messi has almost double the man of the match awards of Ronaldo, meaning Messi was deemed to be the best player on the pitch miles more times than Ronaldo. That would suggest Messi is the better player, I don't see how that is a funny argument.
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Barcelona and Real Madrid win most of their games. This means one of their players is likely to get the MOTM award. So what this actually tells you is a comparison between a player and the rest of their squad, more than a comparison between players on different squads.

When Messi played alongside Suarez and Neymar, he had 25, 13, and 16 MOTM awards. He's an older and a worse player now, but has gotten 22 MOTM in each of the last two seasons, because he's playing in a shit squad that he carries and that still wins most games.
 
I will note that when I talk about specific numbers, I am talking about WhoScored's numbers. Those appear to be the source of the claims that Messi has X amount of MOTM awards. They have some kind of ranking system where they give points to player based on key stat achievements and I think the highest rated player of the match gets MOTM. So the results are going to depend on how they choose to weight various traits.

According to a random post I found on reddit,

Ronaldo doesn't have as many MOTM awards because his completed dribbles are quite low compared to other players. His goal tally is the only thing keeping him near the top of the whoscored charts. They give MOTM awards to the highest scored player in their rating system. Unless you score multiple goals, the guy with the most dribbles or take ons usually scores more and wins it.
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And that's an excuse for Ronaldo to have almost half Messi's MOTM?

It's a fact that when Ronaldo doesn't score he's almost invisible in a match. It's rare when he's influential and he isn't scoring. You can't say the same for Messi. Because he can play deep in the field. I've never seen Ronaldo dicting the play from midfield or receiving the ball from a DM for example.

Ronaldo was very, very influential without goals from 2006 to 2010. And then, he started to become a goal machine in order to have some edge over Messi.
 
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IWat said:
This is just nonsense though... 6 final appearences with 4 goals and an assist is not sub par. Messi is 3 finals, 2 goals, 0 assists which sure is a better goals/game ratio but his sample is also half that of Ronaldo.

I am not a Ronaldo nut for the record though, Messi is clearly the more naturally gifted football player, but some of the claims against Ronaldo aren't based in fact.
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I agree completely with the gist.

Just a minor point. I haven’t checked your facts, but 6 appearances and 4 goals is the same goal/ game ratio as 3 appearances and 2 goals. And adding in an assist actually puts CR ahead not behind.
 
IWat said:
This is just nonsense though... 6 final appearences with 4 goals and an assist is not sub par. Messi is 3 finals, 2 goals, 0 assists which sure is a better goals/game ratio but his sample is also half that of Ronaldo.

I am not a Ronaldo nut for the record though, Messi is clearly the more naturally gifted football player, but some of the claims against Ronaldo aren't based in fact.
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half of Ronaldo’s goals came in one match, so it’s not nonsense at all. Ronaldo is an amazing player, an amazing finals player? Not so much

and compare the games in CL finals where Messi didn’t score vs Ronaldo and you’ll find your answer.
 
IWat said:
This is just nonsense though... 6 final appearences with 4 goals and an assist is not sub par. Messi is 3 finals, 2 goals, 0 assists which sure is a better goals/game ratio but his sample is also half that of Ronaldo.

I am not a Ronaldo nut for the record though, Messi is clearly the more naturally gifted football player, but some of the claims against Ronaldo aren't based in fact.
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Daysleeper said:
half of Ronaldo’s goals came in one match, so it’s not nonsense at all. Ronaldo is an amazing player, an amazing finals player? Not so much

and compare the games in CL finals where Messi didn’t score vs Ronaldo and you’ll find your answer.
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Just to add, 1 of Ronaldo's goals was a penalty in the 120th minute to make it 4-1. Real were heading out until Ramos scored the clutch goal in the 92nd minute to take it to extra time. Bale and Marcelo scored to make it 3-1 and wrap up the match. Ronaldo scored a goal that had no impact on the result and then proceed to celebrate his goal as if he had just won them the final and tried to take the plaudits.
 
IWat said:
This is just nonsense though... 6 final appearences with 4 goals and an assist is not sub par. Messi is 3 finals, 2 goals, 0 assists which sure is a better goals/game ratio but his sample is also half that of Ronaldo.

I am not a Ronaldo nut for the record though, Messi is clearly the more naturally gifted football player, but some of the claims against Ronaldo aren't based in fact.
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Ramos is easily the best CL finals performer for Real despite being a defender, followed by Bale, in my view.

2014 CL final: against Atletico.. Ramos scores at 90’ making it 1-1. Bale and Marcelo make it 3-1. Ronaldo scores a penalty goal at 120’ celebrating it as if he won the game himself and was the hero of the game:) though he was invisible.

2016 CL final: against Atletico.. Again, Ramos scores the 1st goal , Atletico equalizes after missing a penalty with Griezmann. Real wins on penalties.

2017 CL final: against Juventus, the only game out of 4 CL finals where Ronaldo was key scoring two goals.

2018 final: against Liverpool.. Again Ramos, injuring Salah (probably the most important player for Liverpool in that game), then Karius decides to get involved with Bale scoring two goals. Ronaldo is invisible as usual. Bale, Karius, and Ramos had way more influence in that game than any other player in both sides.
 
mshnsh said:
I'm not saying he can't but he was injured and for him to put in a MOTM award at the Maracana vs Brazil would have required him to be at his absolute best. Obviously with the knock he had, he wasn't (at his best.)
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Ok
 
To give the ballon dior either Massi or Ronaldo is getting bored. Imo give it to one of the Italian national team. Jorginho, Chiesa or even Chiellini or Bonucci just for a change. How it used to be and how it turned to. Such shame.
 
Rojow said:
It's a fact that when Ronaldo doesn't score he's almost invisible in a match.
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That's true now that he's a 36 old man nearing the end of his career, but it wasn't really the case for the bulk of it. You can see it in the fact that he's racked up a decent amount of assists over his career. Though I'm sure someone's already argued that those don't count and aren't real.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Since 2009 (can't find the stats before this date) Messi has had 290 man of the match awards in the league and CL combined, Ronaldo has only had 160.

Another one of the crazy stats that Messi has other Ronaldo and in a way settles who is a better overall player outside of goals.
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Bole Top said:
it gets even worse when you google number of motm awards for both - but for the games in which they didn't score.
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:lol: Next you guys would want football to be judged like gymnastics.
 
Daysleeper said:
ronaldo is absolutely a sub par CL finals performer, he’s a sub par performer of most finals if we are being honest. And Messi’s Copa performance this season was inarguably better than Ronaldo’s in 2016. Ronaldo is amazing but in the CL final he’s been poor far more times than he has been good .he was fortunate bale, Ramos and Marcelo were able to step up but he was obviously a big a factor in his teams getting to the finals
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Messi's Copa performance was pretty good during the group stage which his team basically qualified after 1 game. The knockout stage was indeniably worse than Ronaldo in Euro 16, something of a theme with those 2, Ronaldo also far better in CL knockout stage.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Just to add, 1 of Ronaldo's goals was a penalty in the 120th minute to make it 4-1. Real were heading out until Ramos scored the clutch goal in the 92nd minute to take it to extra time. Bale and Marcelo scored to make it 3-1 and wrap up the match. Ronaldo scored a goal that had no impact on the result and then proceed to celebrate his goal as if he had just won them the final and tried to take the plaudits.
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According to that logic, Messi's goal in 2009 was just the icing on the cake in a game they were already winning.
 
Cal? said:
Messi's Copa performance was pretty good during the group stage which his team basically qualified after 1 game. The knockout stage was indeniably worse than Ronaldo in Euro 16, something of a theme with those 2, Ronaldo also far better in CL knockout stage.
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I imagine you also believe that the delivery guy is responsible if the pizza tastes great.
 
Zehner said:
I imagine you also believe that the delivery guy is responsible if the pizza tastes great.
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Do try to explain how ONE injury time goal in the entire knockout stage makes it such an amazing Copa by Messi.
 
Cal? said:
:lol: Next you guys would want football to be judged like gymnastics.
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I don't get what you are trying to dismiss. Messi has been the best player on the pitch nearly twice as much as Ronaldo. This is because Messi is better overall than Ronaldo. If Ronaldo doesn't score or assist he barely does anything of note, which isn't the case for Messi.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
I don't get what you are trying to dismiss. Messi has been the best player in the pitch nearly twice as much as Ronaldo. This is because Messi is better overall than Ronaldo. If Ronaldo doesn't score or assist he barely does anything of note, which isn't the case for Messi.
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The fact MOTM awards are based on some arbitary view of the game, you may as well just look at their FM ratings and go from there.
 
Daysleeper said:
ronaldo is absolutely a sub par CL finals performer, he’s a sub par performer of most finals if we are being honest. And Messi’s Copa performance this season was inarguably better than Ronaldo’s in 2016. Ronaldo is amazing but in the CL final he’s been poor far more times than he has been good .he was fortunate bale, Ramos and Marcelo were able to step up but he was obviously a big a factor in his teams getting to the finals
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I'm not Ronaldo's biggest fan, but that's bollocks. He was decisive in the game against Juve scoring twice against Chiellini and Bonucci for example and also scored against Chelsea in Moscow.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Barcelona and Real Madrid win most of their games. This means one of their players is likely to get the MOTM award. So what this actually tells you is a comparison between a player and the rest of their squad, more than a comparison between players on different squads.

When Messi played alongside Suarez and Neymar, he had 25, 13, and 16 MOTM awards. He's an older and a worse player now, but has gotten 22 MOTM in each of the last two seasons, because he's playing in a shit squad that he carries and that still wins most games.
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Still the best player on planet Earth though so it’s alright. Deserves the Ballon D Or again too
 
Cal? said:
The fact MOTM awards are based on some arbitary view of the game, you may as well just look at their FM ratings and go from there.
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With you, any stat that Ronaldo has which is better than Messi is meaningful yet any stat that Messi has which is better than Ronaldo is meaningless.

The goal posts never stop moving and the excuses never stop coming.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
With you, any stat that Ronaldo has which is better than Messi is meaningful yet any stat that Messi has which is better than Ronaldo is meaningless.

The goal posts never stop moving and the excuses never stop coming.
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No, the only stat that matter are goals and trophies, dribbling, heading, etc are just means to get goals.
 
Suedesi said:
I'm not Ronaldo's biggest fan, but that's bollocks. He was decisive in the game against Juve scoring twice against Chiellini and Bonucci for example and also scored against Chelsea in Moscow.
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That's what, 2 finals out of 6. And remember, he missed his penalty in Moscow, should be thankful to Terry, otherwise would be remembered for his miss not his goal.

The big part of the argument why Ronaldo is one of the best is linked to his CL record as his league record is quite poor for someone claiming GOAT status. Yet, he is invisible in CL finals more often than not. Where he really shines is QFs and SFs, shows exceptional performance in those rounds but frequently disappears in finals.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Messi has been the best player on the pitch nearly twice as much as Ronaldo. This is because Messi is better overall than Ronaldo. If Ronaldo doesn't score or assist he barely does anything of note, which isn't the case for Messi.
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In 2016 Messi had 13 MOTM performances, followed by Nolito in 2nd place with 9 and Griezmann and Ronaldo in third place with 8. Clearly Nolito had a better season than Ronaldo.

The next year, 2017, when Real Madrid won Liga, Champions League, and Ronaldo won the Balon D'Or, he had 4 MOTM performances in La Liga. He was handily beaten by Pedro Leon. In fact, he's not even in the top 10. He must have won the Balon D'Or out of pity and actually had a bad season.

In 2016-2017, when Ronaldo scored 10 goals in the knockout stages of the CLs including 2 in the final, WhoScored ranked Neymar and Messi as the best players of the CL. That definitely makes sense.
 
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Cal? said:
Do try to explain how ONE injury time goal in the entire knockout stage makes it such an amazing Copa by Messi.
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Do you watch full 90 minutes of the game or do you just watch goals? I'm sorry to say but Messi is one attacking player whose game goes far beyond the goals.

Messi was also very good in the Quarter and good in the semi. It was in the final where he was subpar. And in both the semi and final he was carrying a knock that prevented him from playing his best.
Cal? said:
No, the only stat that matter are goals and trophies, dribbling, heading, etc are just means to get goals.
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You need to start watching cricket or some other boring sport where the style is irrelevant.
Iker Quesadillas said:
Barcelona and Real Madrid win most of their games. This means one of their players is likely to get the MOTM award. So what this actually tells you is a comparison between a player and the rest of their squad, more than a comparison between players on different squads.

When Messi played alongside Suarez and Neymar, he had 25, 13, and 16 MOTM awards. He's an older and a worse player now, but has gotten 22 MOTM in each of the last two seasons, because he's playing in a shit squad that he carries and that still wins most games.
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Still more than both Suarez and Neymar. And also more than Ronaldo.
La Vecchia Signora said:
To give the ballon dior either Massi or Ronaldo is getting bored. Imo give it to one of the Italian national team. Jorginho, Chiesa or even Chiellini or Bonucci just for a change. How it used to be and how it turned to. Such shame.
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I'm sure if Ronaldo was favourite for it, you wouldn't say this.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
In 2016 Messi had 13 MOTM performances, followed by Nolito in 2nd place with 9 and Griezmann and Ronaldo in third place with 8. Clearly Nolito had a better season than Ronaldo.

The next year, 2017, when Real Madrid won Liga, Champions League, and Ronaldo won the Balon D'Or, he had 4 MOTM performances in La Liga. He was handily beaten by Pedro Leon. In fact, he's not even in the top 10. He must have won the Balon D'Or out of pity and actually had a bad season.

According to WhoScored (the source of these MOTM claims), in 2016-2017, when Ronaldo scored 10 goals in the knockout stages of the CLs including 2 in the final, the best players of the tournament were Messi and Neymar.
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His ballond'or was based on the number of goals scored in the champions league campaigns which Real Madrid won. What the MOTM awards say is that more often than not, Messi is the best player on the pitch whereas Ronaldo has been more of an impact type player with his goals.
 
The MOTM awards don't say shit.

The only thing they say is that some people look up random numbers to back up a point and don't put much thought into what they might mean or even look at them with any context.
 
kc7 said:
That's what, 2 finals out of 6. And remember, he missed his penalty in Moscow, should be thankful to Terry, otherwise would be remembered for his miss not his goal.

The big part of the argument why Ronaldo is one of the best is linked to his CL record as his league record is quite poor for someone claiming GOAT status. Yet, he is invisible in CL finals more often than not. Where he really shines is QFs and SFs, shows exceptional performance in those rounds but frequently disappears in finals.
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Finals are rarely open affairs, so it's not uncommon for flair players to have limited impact in the finals. I don't think either Messi or Ronaldo have badly choked on the finals although Messi's world cup final in 2014 was the worst of the bunch - completely ineffective for 120 minutes and missed a chance he normally finishes with his eyes closed.

Either way, I don't think either deserves GOAT status - that is reserved for Diego Armando Maradona in my book
 
mshnsh said:
His ballond'or was based on the number of goals scored in the champions league campaigns which Real Madrid won. What the MOTM awards say is that more often than not, Messi is the best player on the pitch whereas Ronaldo has been more of an impact type player with his goals.
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This is really not surprising. The huge difference in MOTM awards show how one-dimensional and limited Ronaldo's contribution has become after his United career which has long been limited to only scoring goals (limited creativity, dribbling etc.) something anyone can see these days when watching Juve and Portugal, seems like a burden for the team rather than an asset when he does not score. It also shows that football is more than goals, and creativity in particular (not surprisingly) matters a lot. Most would think Cruyff, Maradona, Xavi, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Modric, Laudrup etc. are among the best not just for their goals (the number of which probably is much less than that of a prolific striker) but mostly because of their creativity/wizardry. It is also much more enjoyable to watch such players than Ronaldo for 90 minutes really.
 
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Obviously only looking at MOTM awards isn't a great measure and especially comparing it between teams can be misleading. But isn't the one of the big arguments of Ronaldo's fanbase that Messi has played with better players in general than Ronaldo? If now Messi has played with so much better players throughout his career and gone away from games being MOTM twice as many times as Ronaldo, doesn't that actually say quite a lot about him? If we're going by the thesis that Messi has played with better players, then certainly it must mean something.
 
Suedesi said:
I'm not Ronaldo's biggest fan, but that's bollocks. He was decisive in the game against Juve scoring twice against Chiellini and Bonucci for example and also scored against Chelsea in Moscow.
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yes, and was painfully mediocre or worse in the other 4 CL finals. Half his goal scoring came in one match out of 6.

and for the record I don’t see Messi as the greatest CL finals performer either
 
Suedesi said:
Finals are rarely open affairs, so it's not uncommon for flair players to have limited impact in the finals. I don't think either Messi or Ronaldo have badly choked on the finals although Messi's world cup final in 2014 was the worst of the bunch - completely ineffective for 120 minutes and missed a chance he normally finishes with his eyes closed.

Either way, I don't think either deserves GOAT status - that is reserved for Diego Armando Maradona in my book
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ronaldo was worse in the nations league final and 2004 euro final than Messi was in the 2014 World Cup final
 
Ronaldo was decent to good for all the finals he was fully fit for. He wasn’t 100% in either 2014 nor 16.
 
Daysleeper said:
yes, and was painfully mediocre or worse in the other 4 CL finals. Half his goal scoring came in one match out of 6.

and for the record I don’t see Messi as the greatest CL finals performer either
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Half Messi's goalscoring in CL finals came in 1 match. :lol:
 
So, now, Ronaldo, an underperformer in league competitions (2 La Liga wins in 9 years), a mediocre performer in CL finals (supposed to his favorite tournament) bailed out multiple times by Ramos, Bale, Karius:) (by the way it is crazy how little credit Ramos and Bale get for their contribution in these CL finals, we almost never hear their names when discussing Real’s unbelievable CL run), only plays for 20 mins in the final against France in Euro 2016 & gets all the credit, underperforms in 2021 Euros with one of the best squads of the tournament (why has Portugal underperformed in this Euros with such a strong squad? Nobody asks) and that puts him in the same league as Messi, Maradona, and Pele, yeah, right, maybe in an alternative universe..

The conversation always shifts to the number of goals with Ronaldo fans as you see. According to their logic, you cannot dominate a game as a player if you do not score. For example, Zidane in 2006 against Brazil in WC was non-existent because he did not score (though he basically humiliated Brazil). Because the moment the conversation shifts to other key things in football such as creativity, Ronaldo loses big time, and not only to Messi, but to almost any top creator such as Xavi, Zidane, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Maradona, Platini, Cruyff etc.

Why are these guys considered among the best players ever? Because of their creativity, right, they do not need to score tons of goals to have a huge impact. Can you really compare Ronaldo to these greats in terms of creativity, playmaking? Nope.. Can these guys live without goals? Definitely. Can Ronaldo live without goals? Nope.. Who is he comparable to then? In my view, his comparison group should be other pure amazing goal-scorers such as Gerd Muller, Lewandowski etc. Ronaldo simply does not belong to that elite group associated with creativity. And, poor Gerd Muller, such a great performer, if internet was a thing back in the 1970s with enough PR, he would also have a lot of fans putting him in the same league as Pele, Cruyff etc (also good looks help)..

Anyway, it is crazy to compare him to a player like Messi who does not only have that elite creativity but also amazing goal scoring abilities. We would still call Messi as one of the best for his creativity like Xavi even he did not have any goal scoring abilities.
 
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