Ronaldo is chosen apart from that because of his journeyman career, CL knockout goals, CL trophies and Euro win. I lean towards Messi, but its fair glory points Ronaldo gets there.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Ronaldo is chosen apart from that because of his journeyman career, CL knockout goals, CL trophies and Euro win. I lean towards Messi, but its fair glory points Ronaldo gets there.
That too. But do you think if Messi suddenly wins the world cup and gets more cl trophies than Ronaldo would that make people switch to Messi?
Me preferring Messi is a result of my assessment of what a great attacking player does and that's not limited to who had the last or second to last contact before the ball passed the line. Messi makes far more decisive plays that aren't assists or goals than Cristiano. On the contrary, from my experience, many CR7 fans search for arguments because they want him to "win" this "feud" and suddenly show different priorities when judging players or teams outside this discussion.
Also, I'd like you to show me a post of mine that's as subjective as you suggest. My arguments remained the same from the very beginning. I'm not changing goal posts nor discrediting Cristiano who is an incredible player in my eyes and I'm rooting for him to break records and go on for as long as possible. I just don't think he's close to Messi and happens to have a very irrational set of fans that are willing to the biggest mental gymnastics to "protect" their idol.
Love Diego but he’s nowhere near them for me. Could he have been? Yes, but he was an addict, unhealthy and whilst a great he could have done a lot more. You can’t say that about these two.
Maradona would have won 2-3 ballon d'ors at most
But your self-styled 'objectivity' is just as biased as many of the Ronaldo fans at whom you scoff. The metrics you pick and choose and the metrics which you discard because they don't suit your argument are also driven by a predetermined opinion that isn't going to change. It's fine to have an opinion and a preference, just don't pretend you're this bastion of objectivity when you have a clear favourite.
Genuine question here.
Do people honestly think Portugal winning the Euro's when winning ONE game in 90 minutes is superior to Argentina making a World Cup final?
I will have Portugal as the worst big tournament winners of all time. I detest the new Euros format and that a 3rd placed team could win it after not winning a single group stage match.
I just can't fathom why taking 3 points against Hungary, Iceland and Austria. Sneaking by Croatia late in ET, wining on penalties against Poland and beating Wales in the SF gets so much credit.
Do people honestly think Portugal winning the Euro's when winning ONE game in 90 minutes is superior to Argentina making a World Cup final?
I will have Portugal as the worst big tournament winners of all time. I detest the new Euros format and that a 3rd placed team could win it after not winning a single group stage match.
I just can't fathom why taking 3 points against Hungary, Iceland and Austria. Sneaking by Croatia late in ET, wining on penalties against Poland and beating Wales in the SF gets so much credit.
Is winning a tournament superior to not winning a different tournament? Um...yes.
Utter bollocks.
So winning the Nations league or Confed cup is better than making a WC final, aye okay...
I'm sure every footballer would take a EL winners medal over a CL runners up medal as well.
Having a favourite doesn't mean you're not being objective. Or at least not as objective as it's possible since nobody of us is entirely objective. The fact that one put in so much effort to argue for a player alone leads to some level of subjectivity, no doubt, for the fact alone that you want to be proven right. But there's a difference of being subjective and changing the goal posts as you like. I also took much out of this discussion and admit that some posters in here had very good arguments that provided me perspectives on Cristiano I didn't have before. For example that although he doesn't participate as much in the build up, his presence in the box enables easier attacking patterns and creates more space for other players as well es the impact he as a personality has on a squad. That's stuff that's true and which I didn't see before and I'm sure there are bucket loads of such arguments on top of it. But that isn't enough to edge it for me since there are more and more important arguments for Messi in this case.
In the end, for me this discussion also personifies football opinions in general which is part of the reason why I'm so passionate about it. Many people fail to understand the subtletly of the game, they don't get that sometimes plays in midfield are what decides games, not the last contact before the ball passes the goal line. I find this oversimplification of things very annoying in every aspect of the game and I think many people who played football all their lives can understand. When I discuss with somebody like Cal? or SportsingLisbon in here, it feels like I'm discussing with the annoying friend who always thinks players of his club are best and that their team is always disdvantaged by the referee or treated unfairly in general.
winning > losing tbf. it's a great achievement for Portugal.
the only thing that bothers me is "the narrative" in the individual comparisons. both of them lost every major knockout encounter against elite nations (Germany, Spain, France) + Portugal also lost key games against older Uruguay and Chile sides that Messi faced (and was ridiculed for losing against them).
it just happened that one of them managed to evade all of them in the same tournament, which will never happen again. I mean, he's 36 yet until last WC he had zero goals against France, Brazil, Germany, Spain etc. Messi isn't any better in that regard and I think not winning Copa is the only failure in his career. just find it funny how much effort is put into the narrative and belief that most of us have memory of goldfish. they were losing against same (better) sides their whole career. no shame in that.
'Made the WC final' trophy 
I totally agree it was a great achievement but I honestly don't think it's so superior to Argentina making a WC final and especially when you analyse the results in depth. The new format has devalued the Euros and will do the WC as well, new Copa format is a shambles as well.
However there would only be a minority of Man United fans who would pick winning the league cup and FA cup over making top 4. Top 4 is celebrated on here these days, but it's a joke to praise making a world cup final? The biggest tournament in the world?
If I had a make a poll on here for next season what would you prefer for Man United - Losing in the CL final or winning the EL the poll goes CL all day long imho.
No, but every footballer would take winning the Euros/Copa over losing a WC finalSo winning the Nations league or Confed cup is better than making a WC final, aye okay...
I'm sure every footballer would take a EL winners medal over a CL runners up medal as well.
I imagine they probably would take winning the EL over coming second in the CL. Weird that you think losing in a final is a career highlight for a player. I'd imagine it would always be a source of regret...?So winning the Nations league or Confed cup is better than making a WC final, aye okay...
I'm sure every footballer would take a EL winners medal over a CL runners up medal as well.
I actually agree with that. People taking side with Ronaldo over Messi are more based on his mentality, which is more relatable to us average fans. It’s obvious Ronaldo is very talented, but not as talented as Messi, who is probably the most talented player ever. Their performance level isn’t the same in past 5-6 years or so (although I’d argue they are very close in performance level from 07-14).
And if you asked me, I’d always admit Messi is better player, especially over past 5-6 years. But the thing with Ronaldo is, he has always managed to keep up with Messi, on all these Ballon D’ors awards, goals and trophies … and even done better than him in CL and international tournaments, and keep breaking more records than him.
I thought this is hugely admirable, the way he never settle for being 2nd best, never gives up, very determined/driven/disciplined and managed to develop his own ways to keep achieving greater things.
With Messi you just knew he is the best, and like Zehner has said, everything (goals, assists) is more like a byproducts to him. With Ronaldo you will expect him to go out and show everyone why he is the greatest, on goals, trophies and making impact on big moments, which he always managed to do so. I think this is one of the main reason why people taking side with Ronaldo, even though he may not be as talented or better player as Messi.
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Its probably just that Messi has goat abilities in things other than goalscoring. Arguably the best dribbler of all time and his playmaking ability is world class
Actually id say in terms of glory Ronaldo has probably egded it the last 5-6 years. It was when Messi won 4 ballon D'ors in a row it felt like a no contest.
In longetivity Maradonna doesnt feature as high but his peak was special.
Totally agree, but nowadays the conversation is framed around 'greatness' and 'legacy', which are heavily dependant on longevity.
Personally I would go by peak myself, who was the 'best'? I have Messi and Maradona and several others in my lifetime over Cristiano.
In that case Maradona and Messi shouldn't even be in the same sentence.
Well i dont think one has go by one or other. Maradonna's peak by winning Seria A twice with Napoli and the WC is special in terms of glory, but id still go with Messi's peak because he set world records in scoring whilst being possibly the best dribbler ever. His solo goal vs Real Madrid was for me iconic for his peak.
In terms of consistency its pretty insane Ronaldo and Messi would have had probably at least 9 Ballon D'ors each if they hadnt competed at the same time.
I hope this thread will die. I was so invested in this debate when I was a teenager and early 20's. Grew up and realised it's stupid as hell. Just enjoy them both. I hope they play together one day
Spure Talent & peak => Messi
Utylizatiation of talent and overall career => Ronaldo
Utylizatiation of talent and overall career => Ronaldo
100% agree.
It’s why coming 2nd in the league and losing the EL final was better than City winning the PL and Chelsea winning the CL.
Ronaldo just made Coca Cola lose billions in value. Has Messi done that?
It’s one of the most bizarre takes ever that.
Ask all of Holland 88, Gullit, Van Basten och co. if they swap their European title for losing a WC final
So many Messi semi finals that he couldn’t get to leaving him without a UCL win without Xavi or Iniesta in the team. On the opposite side Spain were rocking it at nearly every tournament their best players played like Xavi, Iniesta , Puyol, pique etc
Him losing a WC final would have been easy money when bidding.
I'm gonna break one of my few personal football forum rules. I'm gonna give my own take on this
TLDR; Messi is better, but it's a lot closer than most neutrals seem to think.
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Part 1: Achievements
Achievements can be split into two parts: individual and team based. For players like Ronaldo and Messi, there is only one individual trophy that counts and that's the Ballon d'Or. This one is very straight-forward: Messi has 6, Ronaldo has 5. It's therefore no surprise that Messi wins here.
But team trophies are just as important. Again; for players like Ronaldo and Messi, we only really focus on the major trophies. They are as follows; PL, CL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, the World Cup, the Euros and the COPA.
This is also surprisingly close. Messi has 14 major trophies while Ronaldo has 13. You might think that Messi should win this point as well, but I think it should go to Ronaldo for the fact that he has won major trophies with 4 different teams in 5 different tournaments, whereas Messi only has won with 1 team in 2 different tournaments.
Conclusion:
When it comes to achievements, Messi and Ronaldo are practically neck and neck. You could make an argument for both based on what you value more, but I think a draw is the most fair conclusion here.
Part 2: Skills
Messi and Ronaldo are both goal machines and broke 500 career goals a long time ago. Once you reach such insane numbers it doesn't really matter who's scored more unless the difference is close to 100 goals(or more). Ronaldo has scored a little more than Messi, but I think the difference is less than 50 goals. In other words: you wont see a generic point like "scoring goals" below for this simple fact. I consider both equals in this respect.
Interestingly, when I tried to look at the most relevant skills for attacking players like Ronaldo and Messi I managed to break it down to exactly 5 points each. Keep in mind that "assisting" is not a column because I consider it a mix between "passing" and "creativity", both of which I gave to Messi anyways.
* Timing runs into the box and positioning inside the box in general
Conclusion:
3 out of Ronaldo's 5 strengths over Messi are not purely football related. They are skills that would give him an advantage in most sports obviously, but from a purely football point of view it's hard to look past the fact that not only is Messi better than Ronaldo in 5 aspects, but these aspects are also some of the most difficult things to do in football. As competitors there is nothing separating the two, but as footballers Messi has an edge. It's not massive, but it's clear enough to settle the debate in my opinion. Messi is the more skilled footballer.
TLDR; Messi is better, but it's a lot closer than most neutrals seem to think.
____________________________________________________
Part 1: Achievements
Achievements can be split into two parts: individual and team based. For players like Ronaldo and Messi, there is only one individual trophy that counts and that's the Ballon d'Or. This one is very straight-forward: Messi has 6, Ronaldo has 5. It's therefore no surprise that Messi wins here.
But team trophies are just as important. Again; for players like Ronaldo and Messi, we only really focus on the major trophies. They are as follows; PL, CL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, the World Cup, the Euros and the COPA.
This is also surprisingly close. Messi has 14 major trophies while Ronaldo has 13. You might think that Messi should win this point as well, but I think it should go to Ronaldo for the fact that he has won major trophies with 4 different teams in 5 different tournaments, whereas Messi only has won with 1 team in 2 different tournaments.
Conclusion:
When it comes to achievements, Messi and Ronaldo are practically neck and neck. You could make an argument for both based on what you value more, but I think a draw is the most fair conclusion here.
Part 2: Skills
Messi and Ronaldo are both goal machines and broke 500 career goals a long time ago. Once you reach such insane numbers it doesn't really matter who's scored more unless the difference is close to 100 goals(or more). Ronaldo has scored a little more than Messi, but I think the difference is less than 50 goals. In other words: you wont see a generic point like "scoring goals" below for this simple fact. I consider both equals in this respect.
Interestingly, when I tried to look at the most relevant skills for attacking players like Ronaldo and Messi I managed to break it down to exactly 5 points each. Keep in mind that "assisting" is not a column because I consider it a mix between "passing" and "creativity", both of which I gave to Messi anyways.
| Ronaldo | Messi |
| Box play* | Dribbling |
| Heading | Technique |
| Clutch factor | Passing |
| Leadership skills | Creativity |
| Athleticism | Freekicks |
* Timing runs into the box and positioning inside the box in general
Conclusion:
3 out of Ronaldo's 5 strengths over Messi are not purely football related. They are skills that would give him an advantage in most sports obviously, but from a purely football point of view it's hard to look past the fact that not only is Messi better than Ronaldo in 5 aspects, but these aspects are also some of the most difficult things to do in football. As competitors there is nothing separating the two, but as footballers Messi has an edge. It's not massive, but it's clear enough to settle the debate in my opinion. Messi is the more skilled footballer.
Briefly put the duration of dominance by Messi and Ronaldo definitely blows Maradona’s out of the water. Peak to peak is a different matter as Maradona for those 4-5 years was a sight to behold, as were those of Messi and Ronaldo, but also several others such the Brazilian Ronaldo. But Ronaldo and Messi have been at the top of the world for well over a decade now, which blows Maradona out of the water (but not Pele).
But Maradona of course has a World Cup and they do not.
I think this is a very fair and balanced comparison. I also believe Messi has the edge for the reasons you mentioned but Ronaldo fans would point that the 3 non purely footballing qualities you listed are what defines greatness and they wouldn't be wrong tbf.I'm gonna break one of my few personal football forum rules. I'm gonna give my own take on this
TLDR; Messi is better, but it's a lot closer than most neutrals seem to think.
____________________________________________________
Part 1: Achievements
Achievements can be split into two parts: individual and team based. For players like Ronaldo and Messi, there is only one individual trophy that counts and that's the Ballon d'Or. This one is very straight-forward: Messi has 6, Ronaldo has 5. It's therefore no surprise that Messi wins here.
But team trophies are just as important. Again; for players like Ronaldo and Messi, we only really focus on the major trophies. They are as follows; PL, CL, La Liga, Bundesliga, Serie A, the World Cup, the Euros and the COPA.
This is also surprisingly close. Messi has 14 major trophies while Ronaldo has 13. You might think that Messi should win this point as well, but I think it should go to Ronaldo for the fact that he has won major trophies with 4 different teams in 5 different tournaments, whereas Messi only has won with 1 team in 2 different tournaments.
Conclusion:
When it comes to achievements, Messi and Ronaldo are practically neck and neck. You could make an argument for both based on what you value more, but I think a draw is the most fair conclusion here.
Part 2: Skills
Messi and Ronaldo are both goal machines and broke 500 career goals a long time ago. Once you reach such insane numbers it doesn't really matter who's scored more unless the difference is close to 100 goals(or more). Ronaldo has scored a little more than Messi, but I think the difference is less than 50 goals. In other words: you wont see a generic point like "scoring goals" below for this simple fact. I consider both equals in this respect.
Interestingly, when I tried to look at the most relevant skills for attacking players like Ronaldo and Messi I managed to break it down to exactly 5 points each. Keep in mind that "assisting" is not a column because I consider it a mix between "passing" and "creativity", both of which I gave to Messi anyways.
Ronaldo Messi Box play* Dribbling Heading Technique Clutch factor Passing Leadership skills Creativity Athleticism Freekicks
* Timing runs into the box and positioning inside the box in general
Conclusion:
3 out of Ronaldo's 5 strengths over Messi are not purely football related. They are skills that would give him an advantage in most sports obviously, but from a purely football point of view it's hard to look past the fact that not only is Messi better than Ronaldo in 5 aspects, but these aspects are also some of the most difficult things to do in football. As competitors there is nothing separating the two, but as footballers Messi has an edge. It's not massive, but it's clear enough to settle the debate in my opinion. Messi is the more skilled footballer.
Ronaldo will have Messi beaten in longevity so this is also a score for him but Messi's peak is still considerably better IMO and this is the main reason why he'll always be above Ronaldo for me. The level of football he played from 2009-2015 may never be replicated.
Think this is fair. Honestly you can’t choose between them were lucky to have seen two freaks play for as long as they have.
Is Messi generally better at freekicks throughout his career though? My impression is that Ronaldo was better at them when he was younger while Messi has gotten better at them whilst getting older
I see it like this:
free kick close to goal = easily Messi
free kick further away = Ronaldo
But if I had to choose one, I would definitely take Messi.
Messi wasn't taking them regularly when Xavi and Alves were there. when they left he got more chances to take them and obviously improved with each shot taken, while Ronaldo declined terribly in that regard, to the point he even became statistically the worst free kick taker in Serie A history at one point. he'll obviously score from time to time given how much he shoots, but Messi is clearly better at them.
I just can't fathom why taking 9 points against Nigeria, (bad) Bosnia and Herzegovina and Iran. Sneaking by Switzerland late in ET, beating Belgium in the QF and wining on penalties against (bad) Netherlands gets so much credit.
Portugal after the group stage got Croatia that defeated Spain to be 1st in its group and crushed Argentina 3-0 in WC 2018, beat Poland that beat Switzerland in the knockout stage before, beat Wales that beat Belgium 3-1 in the knockout stage before and then actually won the final vs the classical big team.
BTW Messi had 4 goals and 1 assist in 2014, Ronaldo had 3 goals and 3 assists in 2016.
Also yes, Ronaldo had knocked out the Netherlands twice when they were good (2004 and 2006) and knocked out England also when they were world class (2004 and 2006), beat Spain in 2004 and (bad) Netherlands in 2012 in the group stages, participated in the game Portugal beat France 1-0 in the 2016 final and single handily forced Spain to a draw in 2018 in the group stages.
He also played France in 2006 (defeat 1-0 in the semis), Germany in 2006 (3-2 defeat), Germany in 2008 (3-1 defeat), Brazil in 2010 (0-0 draw), Spain in 2010 (1-0 defeat), Germany in 2012 (1-0 defeat), Spain in 2012 (0-0 in the semis, lost in penalties), Germany in 2014 (4-0 defeat) and Uruguay in 2018 (2-1 defeat).
Personally he scored the 1-0 vs the Netherlands in 2004, scored a brace in a 2-1 win vs Netherlands in 2012 and made an hattrick for a 3-3 vs Spain in 2018.
2004 - Spain (1-0 win), England (0-0 draw, won on penalties), Netherlands (2-0 win, scored 1 goal)
2006 - Netherlands (1-0 win), England (0-0 draw, won on penalties), France (1-0 defeat), Germany (3-2 defeat)
2008 - Germany (3-1 defeat)
2010 - Brazil (0-0 draw), Spain (1-0 defeat)
2012 - Netherlands (2-1 win, scored 2 goals), Germany (1-0 defeat), Spain (0-0 draw, lost on penalties)
2014 - Germany (4-0 defeat)
2016 - France (1-0 win)
2018 - Spain (3-3 draw, scored 3 goals), Uruguay (2-1 defeat)
17 games vs "classical giants"
Let's look at what the big teams Messi and Argentina faced in the WC and Copa:
2006 - Netherlands (0-0 draw), Germany (1-1 draw, lost on penalties)
2007 - Brazil (3-0 defeat)
2010 - Germany (4-0 defeat)
2011 - Uruguay (1-1 draw, lost on penalties)
2014 - Netherlands (1-1 draw, won on penalties), Germany (1-0 defeat)
2015 - Uruguay (1-0 win)
2016 -
2018 - France (4-3 defeat)
2019 - Brazil (2-0 defeat)
10 games vs "classical giants"
And Messi got a grand total of... 0 goals against them.
In fact against the "classical big teams" Messi only scored in competitive games vs Uruguay and only in WC qualifiers, never in the Copa or WC.
Compare the number of times Messi played against the "classical big teams" vs Ronaldo and tell me who gets the easy opponents in these major competitions.
In the Copa America look at the teams he scored against, 0 vs Brazil, 0 vs Uruguay and only last week 1 vs Chile.
Again, in my view Messi has been amazing for Argentina and he can't do everything alone.
Just don't be biased to ignore that Ronaldo has done more for Portugal.
It’s amazing the lengths people go to to defend Messi, reaching a final and losing is now better than winning actual silverware?? Feck off!!
Come on you guys that think its hilarious, grow a set and an answer the question!
Man United next season.
1. Go out the CL group stage and win the EL
OR
2. Make the CL final and lose.
What you picking?
I will do it for you, anyone saying option 1 would not be regarded as a better season for Man United is lying. Good night.
Man United next season.
1. Go out the CL group stage and win the EL
OR
2. Make the CL final and lose.
What you picking?
I will do it for you, anyone saying option 1 would not be regarded as a better season for Man United is lying. Good night.
Sums up 90% of them really.It’s amazing the lengths people go to to defend Messi, reaching a final and losing is now better than winning actual silverware?? Feck off!!
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