Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Daysleeper said:
argentina squad was always dysfunctional, Portugal was inarguably a more balanced team period. No way Argentina wins a final without Messi because they had such a lacklustre attack on the pitch. Despite the talent the players did not fit well together more so in midfield and attack. The defense for Argentina in 2014 and 2015 was stellar. The midfield was really bad hence why Messi has to drop deep. Just because there were big names on the team doesn’t mean they were more balanced. There’s a difference between being balanced and being talented on paper. Portugal from 2016 to present were more balanced, period. No revisionism, it is what it is.
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Portugal’s main Euro 2016 XI:

Patricio
Cedric Pepe Fonte Guerreiro
Carvalho
Sanches Silva Mario
Nani Ronaldo

Argentina’s main Copa America 2016 XI:

Romero
Mercado Mori Otamendi Rojo
Mascherano
Biglia Banega
Messi Higuain Di Maria

Goalkeeper: Equal
Defence: Portugal, by a bit
Midfield: Argentina, by a bit
Attack: Argentina

Both teams seem perfectly balanced to me. Argentina definitely doesn’t look top heavy to me. The two holding midfielders, Mascherano and Biglia, have all shielded defenders in good sides (especially Mascherano at Barcelona).
 
732 goals

308 assists

Better goal+assist/game ratio compared to Ronaldo

34 trophies

55 freekicks

54 hattricks

50 league goals in a season

73 goals all competition in a season

91 goals in a calendar year

7 Pichichi

6 Golden Boot

6 Ballon d'Or

6 FIFA Best Player

2 UEFA Best Player

Goalscorer and creator because he can



Messi will always be better than Ronaldo for me.
 
Daysleeper said:
then we are in agreement not sure why we are going back and forth. I always said Argentina had more talent on paper but Portugal have been better balanced
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Well, I disagree with better balanced as well.

Let's put Ronaldo and Messi to one side. Argentina still has the likes of Aguero, Tevez, di Maria, Mascherano, Zabaleta, Banega. Even taking them out of the equation, you're still left with the likes of Lavezzi, Romero, Rojo, Otamendi, Biglia, Pastore.

Beyond Ronaldo, the Portuguese squad is no way near that same level.

Only now are we starting to see some quality in their squad, with the likes of Bruno, B. Silva, Dias, Cancelo.
 
Cal? said:
Seriously? You're resorting to a U23 tournament as justification for Messi?
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Don't need to because I know that a trophyless Messi is still the Goat. Just said that because is a fact.
 
The Corinthian said:
Well, I disagree with better balanced as well.

Let's put Ronaldo and Messi to one side. Argentina still has the likes of Aguero, Tevez, di Maria, Mascherano, Zabaleta, Banega. Even taking them out of the equation, you're still left with the likes of Lavezzi, Romero, Rojo, Otamendi, Biglia, Pastore.

Beyond Ronaldo, the Portuguese squad is no way near that same level.

Only now are we starting to see some quality in their squad, with the likes of Bruno, B. Silva, Dias, Cancelo.
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I disagree again, I think as a team they still play together much better than Argentina did. I know (and agreed) it could come down to luck and coaching but that's something portugal had over argentina post 2014. Despite all the names on Agentina, Mascherano and possibly Romero were the only true standouts besides Messi. Pepe alone was probably the best player for Potugal in Euro 2016. Portugal was far more cohesive than Argentina were and had better chemistry. Hence why I say they were better balanced.
 
Daysleeper said:
I disagree again, I think as a team they still play together much better than Argentina did. I know (and agreed) it could come down to luck and coaching but that's something portugal had over argentina post 2014. Despite all the names on Agentina, Mascherano and possibly Romero were the only true standouts besides Messi. Pepe alone was probably the best player for Potugal in Euro 2016. Portugal was far more cohesive than Argentina were and had better chemistry. Hence why I say they were better balanced.
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Still Argentina had a good enough squad to win a Copa America :)
 
Daysleeper said:
I disagree again, I think as a team they still play together much better than Argentina did. I know (and agreed) it could come down to luck and coaching but that's something portugal had over argentina post 2014. Despite all the names on Agentina, Mascherano and possibly Romero were the only true standouts besides Messi. Pepe alone was probably the best player for Potugal in Euro 2016. Portugal was far more cohesive than Argentina were and had better chemistry. Hence why I say they were better balanced.
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Better balanced isn't the correct term, if this is what you're saying.

Argentina should have done better considering the talent they had at their disposal. The fact that they haven't is down to them underperforming for the National Team.

Portugal have done better considering what they have in their squad. It comes down to coaching, tactics and luck.
 
Argentina had 5 great players and 3 spots for them, the other players are from good to mediocre, Funes Mori, Cabral, Gaitan, Lavezzi, Pavón, Demichelis, Rojo, Biglia, Gago, Acuña, Pastore, Salvio, Palacios etc etc

Funny how many people laughed here at Otamendi, Higuain, etc but now they are great players.
 
Pocho said:
Argentina had 5 great players and 3 spots for them, the other players are from good to mediocre, Funes Mori, Cabral, Gaitan, Lavezzi, Pavón, Demichelis, Rojo, Biglia, Gago, Acuña, Pastore, Salvio, Palacios etc etc

Funny how many people laughed here at Otamendi, Higuain, etc but now they are great players.
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otamendi single handedly destroyed Argentina against France. Absolutely woeful defending
 
Daysleeper said:
man, I’m having ptsd. Mascherano was incredible but after that it’s just so depressing. Even Pepe at his current age plays amazingly well
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Mascherano was good at 2014, after that year he was a shadow.
 
Cal? said:
That includes lots of dubious friendlies, in official matches Ronaldo has already surpassed him, Pele himself acknowledged on Twitter.
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You mean the person who runs Pele’s Twitter account acknowledged it......

The friendlies weren’t ‘dubious’, unless you have no understanding of history and how football was different back then. They were just games which were not part of any official competition, and Santos played hundreds of these games against some of the best teams and players in the world (and some not so good teams, in fairness). The 1279 figure is in the Guinness Book of Records for a reason, and it is a total that CR will never come anywhere near. And even if you go by the ‘official’ figure, Pele got his goals in about 250-300 less games, whilst being a better dribbler, passer, playmaker and clutch player.
 
Just rename this thread to "Messi fans vs Ronaldo fans thread" or "Argentina bad vs Portugal good thread" or "Daysleeper,Pocho vs Cal,SportingCP96 thread"
 
NasirTimothy said:
You mean the person who runs Pele’s Twitter account acknowledged it......

The friendlies weren’t ‘dubious’, unless you have no understanding of history and how football was different back then. They were just games which were not part of any official competition, and Santos played hundreds of these games against some of the best teams and players in the world (and some not so good teams, in fairness). The 1279 figure is in the Guinness Book of Records for a reason, and it is a total that CR will never come anywhere near. And even if you go by the ‘official’ figure, Pele got his goals in about 250-300 less games, whilst being a better dribbler, passer, playmaker and clutch player.
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Obviously Pele has no say what gets posted on his account. :rolleyes:
 
Cal? said:
Obviously Pele has no say what gets posted on his account. :rolleyes:
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I’m not saying that he doesn’t, but you’re acting like that flowery message came right out of his mouth. It didn’t. What has come right out of his mouth (literally hundreds of times) is the fact that he scored over a thousand goals. Cristiano Ronaldo hasn’t. Maybe if he plays until he’s 40 and goes to Inter Miami to statpad, he might get within 400 goals of Pele’s Guiness Book of Records sanctioned total. He still won’t be nearly as good a player though, there’s nothing he can do about that....
 
How old is a rough person's age that has had the chance to watch Pele?
 
Bebestation said:
How old is a rough person's age that has had the chance to watch Pele?
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Well Pelé was born in 1940. So it depends on what age and country you had a chance to watch Pelé play. Lots of footage avaible though but not all his games. I'd say that I prefer Messi though, because it's no fault of Pelé that the pace of the game was much slower then and the balls very heavy, but watching Messi play for me is more entertaining because the pace and tempo of the game is much higher.
 
The Corinthian said:
Better balanced isn't the correct term, if this is what you're saying.

Argentina should have done better considering the talent they had at their disposal. The fact that they haven't is down to them underperforming for the National Team.

Portugal have done better considering what they have in their squad. It comes down to coaching, tactics and luck.
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I don't think you are making much of a point here. Argentina have been a top heavy side with an unconvincing defence for decades. They have far greater depth in attacking talent but it will not count for much if their tactics and defence are in shambles. You have to look at it in totality instead of separating the two. That is the point he is trying to making in being balanced. History has shown that tournaments are won by a combination of good defence and tactics. The last time they went all the way to the finals they were pretty anti-football and negative.
 
Shamana said:
Well Pelé was born in 1940. So it depends on what age and country you had a chance to watch Pelé play. Lots of footage avaible though but not all his games. I'd say that I prefer Messi though, because it's no fault of Pelé that the pace of the game was much slower then and the balls very heavy, but watching Messi play for me is more entertaining because the pace and tempo of the game is much higher.
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Indeed. I started off years ago trying to obtain video but now it’s so much easier cos there’s a lot online for free at the touch of a button, around 70 hours of full matches, loads and loads goals and clips etc. It’s very easy for anyone who is curious about him. It’s even easier for someone like Maradona; you can watch hundreds of hours of matches even going back to his Argentinos Juniors days.
 
NasirTimothy said:
Indeed. I started off years ago trying to obtain video but now it’s so much easier cos there’s a lot online for free at the touch of a button, around 70 hours of full matches, loads and loads goals and clips etc. It’s very easy for anyone who is curious about him. It’s even easier for someone like Maradona; you can watch hundreds of hours of matches even going back to his Argentinos Juniors days.
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thepolice123 said:
I don't think you are making much of a point here. Argentina have been a top heavy side with an unconvincing defence for decades. They have far greater depth in attacking talent but it will not count for much if their tactics and defence are in shambles. You have to look at it in totality instead of separating the two. That is the point he is trying to making in being balanced. History has shown that tournaments are won by a combination of good defence and tactics. The last time they went all the way to the finals they were pretty anti-football and negative.
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I disagree. We're comparing overall squads for Portugal and Argentina for the times Messi and Ronaldo have represented their national team.

Messi has had better teammates when turning out for the national team. This revisionism that Messi's had a harder time for his national team because of who he plays with is absolutely bonkers, and that Ronaldo has done better with Portugal because they're a better squad overall is also bonkers.
 
The Corinthian said:
I disagree. We're comparing overall squads for Portugal and Argentina for the times Messi and Ronaldo have represented their national team.

Messi has had better teammates when turning out for the national team. This revisionism that Messi's had a harder time for his national team because of who he plays with is absolutely bonkers, and that Ronaldo has done better with Portugal because they're a better squad overall is also bonkers.
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Which part of my post do you disagree with?

Argentina have greater depth and quality, it is undeniable.

But are they functional and tactically better? This are the two qualities that will take you far in tournaments. Not by having a star studded squad.
 
NasirTimothy said:
You mean the person who runs Pele’s Twitter account acknowledged it......

The friendlies weren’t ‘dubious’, unless you have no understanding of history and how football was different back then. They were just games which were not part of any official competition, and Santos played hundreds of these games against some of the best teams and players in the world (and some not so good teams, in fairness). The 1279 figure is in the Guinness Book of Records for a reason, and it is a total that CR will never come anywhere near. And even if you go by the ‘official’ figure, Pele got his goals in about 250-300 less games, whilst being a better dribbler, passer, playmaker and clutch player.
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This quite a refreshing read, especially after reading months of jokes of bashing of Pele’s record everywhere in the internet, of him counting all the goals scored from his backyard etc

But seriously, I always thought the Guinness record is a joke. There are several players scoring more unofficial goals than Pele anyway, including Muller and Bican etc. How Guinness only recognize Pele record is always a mystery to me.
 
anyone questioning Pele's greatness is a recency bias snob. Seriously dude was a great dribbler, goal scorer and playmaker all rolled into one, who scored and assisted phenomenal amount of goals, while winning loads of trophies including world cup, while being the best player in a team filled with all time greats in almost all glamorous positions.
Cristiano and Messi are great in their own rights, but that doesn't mean Pele has to be made as some kind of overrated stats padding striker playing in some weak ass league and era.
 
I don't think there has ever been a thread that goes around in circles as much as this one.
 
Cal? said:
2019/20:
Vs other top 6:

Ronaldo 7 goals in 8 games
Messi 4 goals in 10 games

Vs other top 10:
Ronaldo 14 goals in 16 games
Messi 6 goals in 15 games

Your point is?
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messi is better right now than Ronaldo
 
Cal? said:
2019/20:
Vs other top 6:

Ronaldo 7 goals in 8 games
Messi 4 goals in 10 games

Vs other top 10:
Ronaldo 14 goals in 16 games
Messi 6 goals in 15 games

Your point is?
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0 assists ?
 
I find it funny that there is narrative beginning to build this season that both players ability levels are beginning to drop and yet both are still the top scorers in their respective leagues.
 
Lee565 said:
I find it funny that there is narrative beginning to build this season that both players ability levels are beginning to drop and yet both are still the top scorers in their respective leagues.
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I think that just shows how they were both head and shoulders over any other player but are still up there even both slightly past their respective primes.
 
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