Let's just say Ronaldo is the CL-knoclout-stages-between-quarters-and-semi-final-GOAT
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Let's just say Ronaldo is the CL-knoclout-stages-between-quarters-and-semi-final-GOAT
Goals per game is not the best way to assess Champions League performances, because the amount of games you play is not entirely independent from your performance. You play more games because you advance in the knockout rounds, which your goals presumably contributed to. Ronaldo has reached six finals; Messi has reached three. Ronaldo has played 10 or more games 11 times, compared to 8 for Messi. Ronaldo was remarkably consistent in the competition over 12 seasons.
So are you saying the reason Ronaldo has played more games is that he performed better individually there his team advanced further? Because this is extremely easy to debunk if that's you're saying...
I do agree, however, that goals per game isn't a good way to assess CL performance, neither is raw number goals for that matter. It's the Ronaldo camp of this argument that makes the argument devolve into these very rudimentary measures. I don't put much stock into pure goal count at all. I'd take several midfielders who've barely scored more goals in their entire careers than Ronaldo in a single season over Ronaldo and other high volume scorers.
I know this isn't to do with the debate but how come you prefer Messi over Ronaldo considering you are a Sporting fan? That is commendable that you don't show bias even though it would be easy to do so.
61% to 39% on a United forum no less.
There's a difference between being the biggest star of the team compared to just being a part of the team.
Shocker that CL knockout goals matter than group stage goals.
How about the fact that Ronaldo had a better record in La Liga when they both play in the competition?
The fact is Ronaldo started at a weaker United side on the wings, whereas Messi started at a dominane Barca side as a forward.
Title matches? You're going to compare Copa del Rey to CL now?
The fact Messi played in far fewer CL final is that he tends to not make the final nearly as often.
Ronaldo was the topscorer for Portugal as they won the Euro, how is that "forgettable"?
This has got to be a pisstake. Utter European dominance in WC in the last decade and you try to claim the Copa has better teams? Messi is CL GOAT?
His team has made the SF ONCE in the last 6 seasons. That poll is meaningless as it was tampered with by some idiot a few years ago.
For once I have to side with Cal, the mods kept closing the poll. Messi led at first, then Ronaldo had a stormer in a couple CL matches one year which got it to 50% each. It then got closed, and then reopened no the later and Messi went ahead to 61% and has been closed ever since.
He absolutely does, He had the best w-l percentage in a single season in the history of tennis. He absolutely has the peak argument. This little write up also mentions how brilliant his 2015 season, the greatest in men’s tennis history:
https://lobandsmash.com/2020/05/05/three-greatest-seasons-tennis-history/amp/2/
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I was going to ask the same thing. I’m blown away right now
Serious? How? Bloody hell. Can’t believe anything these days.
Initially the poll was around 65 to 35 for Messi, then Ronaldo went on a crazy run in the CL and lots of people changed their vote, until Ronaldo was about to turn it around. A mod closed the poll when it was 50/50 as a symbolic act I believe. It was reopened later on and quickly turned towards Messi again. Lots of people complained about that and the thread title is a result of it.
So yeah, it's not fully credible by any means but Cal? is a bit over the top as usual. Without it the poll would probably still favor Messi. I doubt the mod gave a feck about the result let alone intended manipulating it.
Thanks for clearing that up. Still quite damning on a United forum, no less.
Yes, there are two sides to the points he argued and he only emphasizes one. But those are the points on your agenda. The topics you want to discuss because the result is somewhat ambivalent. But why are the only topics discussed in this thread the ones that are somewhat even? While the comparison between the two might be almost even based on those topics, there are other ones that clearly favor Messi and those are barely discussed at all. Compare their peaks and the discussion is finished, so people just agree to discuss their whole careers. Yet it's questionable if this is the common way to access a footballer's quality. Maradona or Ronaldinho for instance feature in many all time great lists although they had very short peaks. Factor in dribbling, playmaking, chance creation in general and it clearly goes to Messi again, so you just discuss goal stats. However, those still favor Messi, so you guys either want to exclude the the first years of Cristiano's career (because Messi becoming a prolific goal scorer at a younger age obviously isn't important) or just look at CL knockout goals. The cohort most important is coincidently always the one that goes to Cristiano, even if all remaining ones favor Messi
I mean, the best example of that is this obsession with goal stats. Obviously, Messi is a player that you can't measure in his goal record. However, somebody makes the ambivalent argument that Cristiano is a better goal scorer than Messi and pretends it is a fact. So the "Messi fans" don't think this matter since it's nonsensical to them to judge a player based on goals alone but still feel the need to correct that argument since it is not factually true. Now the discussion is in full flight and it seems as if the players were even when in reality you only discuss the stuff that you want to discuss and that in isolation might lead to the outcome you want to see
Sure I would normally respect people thinking Messi is just as good or even a better goalscorer, or having a as good or even a better career as Ronaldo. But the problem I am having with his Q&A thread, is that he simply disregard everything else as a myth, which is extremely one sided, childish, arrogant and closed-minded. Its just like arguing with Trump, you know. Of course Messi is great player with great skills and great goalscoring and assist stats, everyone knows that, and I've always said Messi is a better player too. But when he is going to only use non-traditional approach of comparing goals per game ratio to conclude Messi being better goalscorer and then disregarding anything else is a myth (ie ignoring the actual goal scoring record which matters most), while completely ignoring the fact that not only Ronaldo is the all time top scorer in almost everything, he is actually having better goal per game ratio during his 9 years time in Spain too (450 goals in 438 games), but at the same time including those 4-5 years when Ronaldo was playing as a midfield support winger in Man Utd for around 200 games in his presumed goal per game ratio comparison, then of course its just going to be pointless to have any further meaningful discussion with him, as there's simply a fundamental flaw in his way of thinking when couldn't be agreed upon.
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Well Ronaldo has 270m followers in Instagram alone as a start, probably need Bill Gates to fund billions to those hundreds of millions of people to frame agendas for him...
Nice conspiracy theory though
There's a difference between being the biggest star of the team compared to just being a part of the team.
Shocker that CL knockout goals matter than group stage goals.
How about the fact that Ronaldo had a better record in La Liga when they both play in the competition?
The fact is Ronaldo started at a weaker United side on the wings, whereas Messi started at a dominane Barca side as a forward.
Title matches? You're going to compare Copa del Rey to CL now?
The fact Messi played in far fewer CL final is that he tends to not make the final nearly as often.
Ronaldo was the topscorer for Portugal as they won the Euro, how is that "forgettable"?
Messi is CL GOAT?
1-"Ronaldo had a better La Liga record"
Please explain this one.
In 9 years where they were both in La Liga, Messi's team finished ahead of Cristiano's 7 times, 6 of those were titles.
In terms of the # of goals, which seems to be hugely important for Ronaldo supporters, Messi scored 329 in 309 games (1,064 per game) to Ronaldo's 311 in 292 games (1,065 per game). Messi had 122 assists to 86. Be it by number of titles or these very rudimentary stats Messi comes out ahead very clearly...
2-Title match performances
Yes, I'm including everything, CL, Copa, Super Cups, international. Every game where a title is at stake would be considered big to some extent, right? Of course some are bigger than others, but as a United fan you should know better than most that this Messi track record of great performances in finals includes CL finals. Do you want to narrow it down to CL finals though? Messi's performances have still been more impressive anyway...
3-"Euro 2016 vs Copa America"
I didn't say Ronaldo's Euro was forgettable, I said his final performance was, I was talking about "big game performance". In the final, he played 30 minutes, made no impact and got injured and subbed out.
I also didn't say the Copa America was a stronger tournament than the Euros, I said Messi's performance in the 2016 Copa America was largely superior to Cristiano's in the Euro 2016 even though Argentina didn't win the title and Portugal did. Was Ronaldo even Portugal's best player in the tournament? It's very debatable at best, at least Pepe has an excellent argument...
4-"Messi can't be the CL GOAT because his team made the CL semifinal once in 6 years."
This is of course utter nonsense and you can do it with pretty much every great player.
Ronaldo can't be the CL GOAT because he has been repeatedly eliminated from this tournament by non-contenders/second tier teams in Benfica, Lille, Lyon twice, Ajax, Porto... Messi's only comparable loss is to Roma.
So maybe it's Maldini? Uh a GOAT who chokes 3-goal leads two years in a row?
You can do this about every single player in every single competition. Or manager for that matter. Alex Ferguson a GOAT level manager? Ah a GOAT who got eliminated in a World Cup group where 3 teams out of 4 qualified? A GOAT who got eliminated from Europe by Rotor Volgograd, Torpedo Moscow, Basel and many others?
I don't "simply disregard it as a myth", I explain why that is the case.
Goals per game is "non-traditional"? So you rather just count the number of goals. So yeah, currently Cristiano has 767, Messi has 730 for their career excluding B team and NT non-senior matches (counting these would add 25 goals for Messi, 8 for Cristiano, further narrowing the gap). Only Cristiano has scored these 767 in 1052 games, Messi his 730 in 908 games. Messi has 37 less goals in 144 fewer games... but ok, you for some don't care about ratios and just raw totals. So if/when Messi ends up with more career goals, will you instantly change your mind and consider him a better scorer?
It's hilarious how you think there's a "fundamental flaw in my way of thinking" when all the data I provide refers to the entire careers of the players in question, while you try to narrow it down as much as possible to give your guy the advantage. Just take a step back and look at what you're proposing: for Messi we should count everything, but for Ronaldo we should exclude his entire Manchester United career (6 full seasons!). We should also ignore goals per game ratio, except in a very specific 9-year period.
Let's apply your first filter, as utterly absurd as it is, and see what comes of it. Let's exclude Ronaldo's entire United career. We are left with 683 goals in 856 games, for a ratio of 0,797 goals per game. This is still behind Messi's 0,803 goals per game ratio for his entire career and we've randomly excluded Ronaldo's entire United career. And we've made no adjustments to favor Messi of course, should we also for instance ignore every game he played before Pep took over at Barca? Maybe adjust for the fact Messi doesn't have amateur teams like Andorra, San Marino and co. in the COMEBOL to boost his international stats. Or since we're excluding Ronaldo's United years "because he was a winger", how about we adjust for the fact Ronaldo has been playing much closer to the goal in the past several years, while Messi is Barcelona's primary playmaker? Of course we won't do any of this because the only way to generate a debate is through crazy mental gymnastics, cherry picking and statistical manipulation to favor Ronaldo...
Well, I should preface this by saying that while I'm a Sporting fan who goes to almost every home game, Barcelona have always been my second club ever since I went to Camp Nou as a kid, Rivaldo was my favorite player as a kid and then it was Iniesta. I go to Camp Nou to attend a game at least once a year. So I'd have a bias there as well.
With that said, I'm a football fan/geek above any club preferences and for me Messi vs Ronaldo isn't even a thing honestly, Messi is just largely superior in every aspect of football and the best player I've ever seen. I'm not going to turn blind just because Cristiano was born in the same country as me, then again I can't understand the mind of patriotic people because I've never been one...
Sorry for the very long post btw, ideally I'd break it down in different posts, but for some reason I'm limiting to 5 posts a day, that's why I kinda stopped posting after my first few days in the summer, so I need to get as much in as possible to be able to participate in the discussion.
More career goals, more CL goals, more international goals. Of course those are just myths.
Ronaldo won 5 CL as key player and best player in tournament, Messi won 3 as key/best player, and another 1 as bit part player in bench role, of course that's just another myth.
And yes, Messi performance level is higher in general, he is a better player in my eyes, so that's the only bit I agree on. But Ronaldo has made bigger impact with more goals, more assists, more wins and more trophies in CL. Of course thats just a myth too.
Of course when people are talking about the best goalscorer in the world, they will straight up use goal scoring record rather than goals per game record. Its just, the way everyone use to judge best goalscorer. There's are top goalscorer awards everywhere, I never heard of goals per game ratio award even once, of course its non-traditional way of thinking. Its simply fundamentally flaw to put too much emphasis on goals per game ratio, such that to conclude everything from there, I am not saying there isn't any credit in it, but you simply can't completely overlook the traditionally stats everyone use in football history, which is goal scoring record itself. For example, if both players score the exact same amount of goals, I'd give more credit to the one who did it in fewer games. Which means, if one day Messi reach Ronaldo goals record and did it in fewer games, I'd give more credits to Messi too.
Once again, I probably rate Messi as high as you do, but I won't go as blinded on one side.
As for now, , my stances on both player is:
1. Messi is better player, and more talented too
2. Messi performance level is higher in general, throughout their career
3. Ronaldo has slightly better career, due to more major trophies won, with his 1 Euro, and 5 CL vs Messi 3.5 CL. But Messi winning 6 Ballon D'or has slight edge over Ronaldo 5 Ballon D'or. Overall Messi won 33 trophies vs Ronaldo 31. But Ronaldo has hold more goals records too. So career wise they are very close.
4. Ronaldo is better goalscorer as of now, as he is leading in career goals, CL goals and international goals, he score goals in everywhere and he is scoring goals even at 36 years of age. Messi has better goals per game ratio throughout his career though (Ronaldo has disadvantage starting as midfielder winger mind), but he score insane amount mainly for Barca in La Liga, and hasn't officially take over the titles of best goalscorer in those other major area yet (career, CL, international), he isn't the best for me yet until he scores more than Ronaldo.
5. Ronaldo has made bigger impact in CL, as he scores most, assist most, won most. Hence he is GOAT in CL.
6. Messi is GOAT in La Liga, as he scores most, assist most, won most, and performs best.
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More career goals, more CL goals, more international goals.
Those are factual, but ignore the reality than Cristiano has played 144 more career matches, 27 more CL games, 28 more international games. At the international level, it also ignores the fact he has several games against amateur teams to boost his stats while every team in the COMEBOL is competitive, there are no matches against Andorra and San Marino...
Do these extra games reflect more longevity (which would be an argument in his favor if it were the case) as a goalscorer? No, they only reflect that he's older... Bar a career ending injury, Messi will have a clearly superior number of goals when he reaches Ronaldo's number of games.
Your last paragraph is just beyond baffling, sorry, I don't even know how to respond to it. Messi is the better player but Ronaldo has made bigger impact with more goals, assists, wins and trophies? Let's get the outright falsehoods out of the way first I guess:
Messi has more assists and trophies in his career. More career goals and match wins, ok that is true.
Falsehoods out of the way, let's focus on the logical problem now:
Messi is the better player but the fact Ronaldo has more goals means he makes a bigger impact? Uh what? Since when is there a direct correlation between # of goals scored and impact and since when does scoring more goals mean more impact than being a better player? Maradona scored 8 goals in the World Cup, Miroslav Klose scored 16; was Maradona the better player but Klose made a bigger impact with more goals and wins and same number of trophies?
So you're going to pretend Ronaldo's higher total numbers have nothing to do with having played far more games? Ok, so answer my other question, if, as is very possible and even likely, Messi ends his career with a higher number of goals, are you going to maintain consistency and consider him the better scorer?
Also, thinking 730 goals in 908 games is better than 767 in 1052 isn't non-traditional, it's what anyone with any sort of analytical mind will do. The rate at which you score is very important in determining how good you are at scoring goals. Why die on such a ridiculous hill?
I believe you're missing the point. In the greater scheme of things, it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong with his arguments because they only address a very tiny proportion. Even if you narrowly give these to Cristiano, there are much stronger arguments who clearly favor the other side.
Also, I believe you're complaining about his double standards but almost in the same sentence are doing the same. I mean, you can't argue that Cristiano played 200 games as a winger for United but completely ignore the fact that he during the majority of his career (probably 400+ matches) played much higher up the pitch than Messi. Just for the record: I still think this is a very superficial way to compare these two, but on top of it you're also changing the goal posts. By the way, I was curious how both stats looked while both were in La Liga so I did a quick research (I know, I'm a geek..). Here's the result:
| player | goals per game | minutes per goal | minutes per scorer |
| Messi | 0.99 | 85.21 | 60.85 |
| Ronaldo | 1.03 | 84.07 | 65 |
I mean.. come on. These stats actually favor Messi. And that's not even considering that he was much more influential outside of goals and assists and that he outperformed his xG constantly while Cristiano underperformed his (Cristiano had more opportunities and took more shots).
I think one thing that doesn't get brought up enough is the consistency of Messi's performances. Notice I said performances and not goal scoring. I've never seen a player play well as consistently as Messi, especially for an attacker. A lot of the time, goals or assists can be the difference between a forward having a good or a bad game and Ronaldo fell into this category a lot of the time. He'd have a decent to poor performance but the narrative would rightly change when he gets a brace. In Messi's case, his excellence shows through most games that his goal contributions only make a very good performance even better.
We've all probably watched Messi hundreds of times and from 2008-2019, it was rare to see him perform poorly in a game when fully fit. The same can't be said for Ronaldo.
I know stats are a more decisive metric but this certainly has to count for something. There was the stat about Messi having the most MOTM awards in the last decade, with 225 compared to Ronaldo in second place with 125.
We've all probably watched Messi hundreds of times and from 2008-2019, it was rare to see him perform poorly in a game when fully fit. The same can't be said for Ronaldo.
I know stats are a more decisive metric but this certainly has to count for something. There was the stat about Messi having the most MOTM awards in the last decade, with 225 compared to Ronaldo in second place with 125.
Why are you doing this again? Have we not already come across the fact that Ronaldo had played around 200 games as midfielder support winger? If you cannot come to terms with it, there's no point to continue this type of discussion. Its just going over and over again running in circles, wasting both of our time. Also, once you started with Andora and San Marin arguments, has Messi never played and scored against countries like Haiti, Hong Kong and Nicaragua? I mean, come on, lets not waste our time here, otherwise I'll just end it here.
Dude, are you being purposely obtuse or just not reading my posts? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter. I addressed that exact same point in my previous response to you. I'm limited to 5 posts a day, but for your convenience I'll copy-paste the part of my previous post addressing this:
"It's hilarious how you think there's a "fundamental flaw in my way of thinking" when all the data I provide refers to the entire careers of the players in question, while you try to narrow it down as much as possible to give your guy the advantage. Just take a step back and look at what you're proposing: for Messi we should count everything, but for Ronaldo we should exclude his entire Manchester United career (6 full seasons!). We should also ignore goals per game ratio, except in a very specific 9-year period.
Let's apply your first filter, as utterly absurd as it is, and see what comes of it. Let's exclude Ronaldo's entire United career. We are left with 683 goals in 856 games, for a ratio of 0,797 goals per game. This is still behind Messi's 0,803 goals per game ratio for his entire career and we've randomly excluded Ronaldo's entire United career. And we've made no adjustments to favor Messi of course, should we also for instance ignore every game he played before Pep took over at Barca? Maybe adjust for the fact Messi doesn't have amateur teams like Andorra, San Marino and co. in the COMEBOL to boost his international stats. Or since we're excluding Ronaldo's United years "because he was a winger", how about we adjust for the fact Ronaldo has been playing much closer to the goal in the past several years, while Messi is Barcelona's primary playmaker? Of course we won't do any of this because the only way to generate a debate is through crazy mental gymnastics, cherry picking and statistical manipulation to favor Ronaldo..."
Tl;dr version: even with this utterly ridiculous filter made exclusively to favor Ronaldo, Messi still comes out ahead anyway.
Well I never said Ronaldo has better goals per game ratio in their career, I always rate Messi as high as goalscorer. But when judging the best goalscorer, I'll give more weight on actual amount on goals scored. I am not the type of person who likes to use current goals per game ratio to project the potential goals scoring record which hasn't happened yet. For example, scoring 30 goals in 30 games, not necessarily better than scoring 40 goals in 42 games, even the ratio is better. Fair play to Messi, if he managed to score more goals when he retired, of course I'd regard him as the best goalscorer, its still a possibility, he isn't far behind in both career goals and even CL goals. But maybe he won't score as many for international though, but that's ok.
I am not excluding, I am merely stating the fact that its not a fair ground to compare goals per game ratio of a forward with a midfield winger. Its not exact rocket science to understand this. If you keep ignoring this when making same claims again and again, there's no point to discuss any further. Let's end it here before we keep running in circles.
And yes, Messi may have slightly better goal per games ratio too even after excluding those, but I don't give same weight as you as in slightly better goal per games ratio over more actual goals scored (yeh like 0.006 difference, such a huge margin for you to draw any conclusion and call the other side a myth). Like everyone else in football history, I value actual goals scored higher. Like I said in previous post, I am not the type of person who likes to use current goals per game ratio to project the potential goals scoring record which hasn't happened yet. 40 goals in 42 games is always better than 30 goals in 30 games, even if the ratio is slightly less (even with 0.05% difference)..
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But comparing a striker's output with a play maker's is fair? Come on.
Going by goal stats is a dumb argument to begin with but if you choose to bring it up, at least be consistent with it. You simply cannot claim that it's unfair to include Ronaldo's games as a winger and then ignore the fact that this argument is actually going against Cristiano since he played much more games as a de facto striker. We both pointed that out to you and you ignored this argument for the third time already. This is painfully obvious hypocrisy.
Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are absurd, we may not see phenomenons like them again in our lifetimes. Their careers and talent are absurd, legendary. Let's stop with the complete shitshow of this thread.
"Mes que un cnut" Cal is so funny
Cal is so funny Not at all. It was closed at a key moment when Ronaldo was doing well, and opened at a key moment when Messi was doing well, and then generally tampered with in favour of Messi. So unfortunately, it can't be used as an indicator of anything.
It would have been a cool relic of the forum had it not been tampered with, but now it's worthless.
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He isn't. As you said, Messi is heads and shoulder above Ronaldo in every competition, including the Champions League. Leaving aside the fact that he is a better scorer and chance creator, he's the better all around player. He's also come up bigger in his finals performances while Cristiano went missing in most of his.
Well Ronaldo has 270m followers in Instagram alone as a start, probably need Bill Gates to fund billions to those hundreds of millions of people to frame agendas for him...
Nice conspiracy theory though
You dont need hundred of million people, he is not a China Communist Party equivalent. And is it really that far fetched? If Bartomeou can do it, why is it that impossible for you that your idol also done it. A smiley face response in jest doesnt change the way CR7 trolls are replying to people, which are full of personal attacks
So what did this represent? It simply meant that 60+% of the pollers preferred messi most of the time except the time of that crazy run by CR7
It’s a little bit more than that. There was a number of occasions it was closed after Ronaldo had put in some clutch performances during that UCL streak only to be opened again when Messi put in worldie performances vs Real amongst others.
It was definitely one or more kids having a laugh and as such it’s not got a great deal of integrity regardless of whether people think that’s a likely outcome anyway.
Dude, you're all over the place. The reason we're talking about goal stats to begin with is because the CR camp keeps bringing it up. But once the numbers reveal Messi has the advantage in that too, "it's not fair to compare"? There's being biased and then there's this; you want to argue that Ronaldo is the better player because he's the better scorer, ignoring every other aspect of football, and to make him a better scorer you want ignore 6 full seasons of his career. And why? Because he was playing mostly as a winger. But of course let's ignore the fact that for most of their careers Messi played in a much deeper position with far more playmaking responsibilities.
But sure, if we ignore numbers of games played, arbitrarily exclude 6 entire seasons of Cristiano's career to benefit but make no adjustments whatsoever in favor of Messi, then yeah I guess Ronaldo comes out looking as a better scorer. If we take a minimally rational approach to the question, on the other hand, it's a very different story...
Why go to such lengths to defend the indefensible anyway? In the bigger picture, Messi is so clearly superior as an all-around football player that even if he had just scored say 250 career goals he'd still be the better player anyway, being a better scorer is just another aspect where he's superior. There's a lot more to a player's impact than scoring output...
Hardly any trophies since Xavi and Iniesta retired.
Yet he continues to be the top scorer of la Liga and his competitions. Woo! Then they talk about how Messi came up in the Finals. Seems like only the finals when Xavi and/or Iniesta were playing.
To be honest I remember how deadly Pedro was for Barcelona and how meh-ssi he was in the PL.
Win some foreign trophies please Messi when playing for another controlling team like Man City. Make this decision easier for me
I love the Messi fans in reality.
It's like how the majority like Drake in rap music and youtube views when there is much much better music if you look a bit deeper that is underground.
Yet he continues to be the top scorer of la Liga and his competitions. Woo! Then they talk about how Messi came up in the Finals. Seems like only the finals when Xavi and/or Iniesta were playing.
To be honest I remember how deadly Pedro was for Barcelona and how meh-ssi he was in the PL.
Win some foreign trophies please Messi when playing for another controlling team like Man City. Make this decision easier for me
I love the Messi fans in reality.
It's like how the majority like Drake in rap music and youtube views when there is much much better music if you look a bit deeper that is underground.
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That's based on nothing other than your own assumption.
So you've gone with titles instead of goals now? I specifically said Ronaldo had a better goal record in La Liga which is true.
Again, failing to make CL finals count as big games, no? All those SF defeats?
You really want to use that Copa as an example? The one where Argentina beat Chile without Messi in the group stage and proceeded to LOSE to Chile with him doing nothing in 120 minutes and bottling his penalty?
Can you at least admit Messi has looked less than GOAT level in the CL for over half a decade now? That period covers quite a few years of his "peak"?
Even the most hardcore members of the Messi brigade struggle with arguing for Messi's CL record against Ronaldo, you really are breaking new ground here.
I wouldn't be so sure about Messi retiring after Ronaldo.
As for the minnows argument, Messi has had plenty of games against CONCACAF teams such as Guatamala, Haiti & co.
Ronaldo has a better goals per game and minutes per goal record per your table. What is "minutes per scorer"?
As for xG, that's such a meaningless argument, if they both receive the ball 30 yards from goal and Messi dribbles and loses the ball, that doesn't count; if Ronaldo shoots and misses, that counts, how is that in anyway relevant?
@Manuel Traquete
How many of the trophies were without one of xavi or Iniesta
Ronaldo could play with scholes and Carrick to Kroos and modric.
When I bring up the trophies Messi cant win without the "core of Barcelona or Spain" it turns to his fans that it doesnt matter that he was the top scorer and that's all that matters.
It's great to see the top scorers change in the PL nearly to every year. Shows how shit the La Liga is and he simply doesnt have the guts to try out anywhere else. Now this new commander is joining Barcelona he will use that as an excuse as to retire there.
Ps. Growth Hormone Injection literally made him bigger than he naturally was.
How many of the trophies were without one of xavi or Iniesta
Ronaldo could play with scholes and Carrick to Kroos and modric.
When I bring up the trophies Messi cant win without the "core of Barcelona or Spain" it turns to his fans that it doesnt matter that he was the top scorer and that's all that matters.
It's great to see the top scorers change in the PL nearly to every year. Shows how shit the La Liga is and he simply doesnt have the guts to try out anywhere else. Now this new commander is joining Barcelona he will use that as an excuse as to retire there.
Ps. Growth Hormone Injection literally made him bigger than he naturally was.
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