In all honesty, the rivalry always felt a bit artificial to me. It's only really a rivalry on paper. At no point in time Cristiano was on Messi's level ever since the latter won his first Ballon D'Or. It was kept alive by stats sheets and team trophies which only distracted from the actual football both players played. The criteria applied to measure their "greatness" at times were so dumb and IMO it changed the perception of football for the worse because those superficial measuring sticks are suddenly applied to other player comparisons as well. You don't need to look any further than the Haaland vs Mbappe thread.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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In all honesty, the rivalry always felt a bit artificial to me. It's only really a rivalry on paper. At no point in time Cristiano was on Messi's level ever since the latter won his first Ballon D'Or. It was kept alive by stats sheets and team trophies which only distracted from the actual football both players played. The criteria applied to measure their "greatness" at times were so dumb and IMO it changed the perception of football for the worse because those superficial measuring sticks are suddenly applied to other player comparisons as well. You don't need to look any further than the Haaland vs Mbappe thread.
I’m not sure I agree though, but it depends on what metric you personally use to determine who’s the best.
I mean any physical metric like goals scored and trophies won etc tend to favour Ronaldo (last time I checked) - it’s not fair to dismiss those facts because it doesn’t suit your preferred player (Messi.)
I think on some level it does have to come back to black and white numbers, they have to figure somewhere in the discussion.
Most of their peak periods were within the same league, each playing in one of the two best teams in that league.
You don’t get a better metric than that in the sport really. Surely?
For me Messi was always the better technical player.
However, technically Ronaldinho was better than Ronaldo too.
Ronaldo was the first player I could feel his mental ability through the TV screen or stadium.
That's what I loved about him. It's a bit like Bruno Fernandes- there is the deadly skillful side to him just as much as his mental ability that shines in matches to play like our leader or captain.
It's just what way people like to judge their players. Some people rate their players depending on mostly their dribbling/skill like abilities because it seems to highlight to them the capacity of a player.
Some people do not.
However, technically Ronaldinho was better than Ronaldo too.
Ronaldo was the first player I could feel his mental ability through the TV screen or stadium.
That's what I loved about him. It's a bit like Bruno Fernandes- there is the deadly skillful side to him just as much as his mental ability that shines in matches to play like our leader or captain.
It's just what way people like to judge their players. Some people rate their players depending on mostly their dribbling/skill like abilities because it seems to highlight to them the capacity of a player.
Some people do not.
They don't though. Messi has a far better goals to games ratio and same with assists. Messi also has more trophies won, yes Ronaldo has 1 more CL title and an international title, Messi has 4 more league titles. 6 if we ignore the 2 at Juve as they won the title every year for 7 years before Ronaldi and probably would have won the 2 he won without him anyway.
Individual trophies, Messi has 1 more Ballon D'or and won the WC best player.
I think goals and trophies matter as a metric, but you also gotta take all other variables into account. Including the quality of the teams they played in and simply consistenly watching them play. For instance Andres Iniesta has a terrific trophy cabinet, but his overall goal and assist stats are rather poor for a player who is considered to be one of the best midfielders ever. Based on goals and assists you'd think that Frank Lampard was much greater midfielder who played in a worse team. But I can watch videos of Iniesta all day long instead of Lampard(despite him being a very good and underrated midfielder).
I think with football rivalries it's difficult because it's not like Tennis where they can go 1 vs 1. I can't fault anyone for leaning towards Ronaldo, but I feel Pelé. Maradonna, Cryuff and Messi all had this artistic feel about them when you watch them play, which Ronaldo had to some extent when he was at his pomp at United and his early Madrid days, but then he centered his game more about becoming all out goalscorer and lost more of those aspects of his game, but it's not that is a bad things since goals win you games, it just that Ronaldo will rarely be man of match without scoring a goal for a long time now while the others could boss the game through their other skills. I think this is one of the main reasons Messi has more than twice as many man of match awards compared to Ronaldo, because he can dictate the game.
And as someone mentioned above Messi has a similar or better goals pr game ratio than Ronaldo and more assists. Trophy wise, Messi has won more league titles, while Ronaldo obviously edges him in CL's and has a Euro to boot. Messi on the other hand has an extra Ballon D'or.
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Messi is generally the superior goal scorer statistically speaking if you don't overemphasize very specific cohorts (a. k. a. CL knockout goals). However, Messi scored much more difficult goals than CR7 as evidenced by his xG stats over the years. Cristiano scored his goals from typical striker positions while Messi kept up with his output by primarily scoring from spaces usually occupied by midfielders or playmakers. So even the only area in which one might favor Cristiano actually goes to Messi.
Thing is, these discussions nowadays are almost like negotiations and the one side makes "admissions" when it wouldn't even have to do so. You have to be so incredibly selective with the criteria to keep Cristiano in the debate. If you go by peak, it's crystal clear who the winner is so this isn't even debated. Like, at all. Messi to me would still be the better player if he retired after Pep left Barcelona because he was absolutely untouchable at that time - you won't even find that argument in the last 200 pages or so. People in here just pretend this didn't happen. But even then, if you factor in dribbling, playmaking, assisting etc. it's still Messi by a landslide so people ignore that, too, and completely focus on goal stats. However, solely looking at goals it's still Messi who edges it since he has a better goals per minute ratio and a higher xG throughout his career. And if you go by trophies (see how superficial the metric has already gotten), it's undecided since Cristiano has a CL and an EC going for him while Messi toyed with Cristiano's teams when they both played in La Liga, completely outshining his domestic record in the same competition. So in summary, it's as if every argument is ignored unless it evens the playing field and keeps the comparison alive.
That's what I mean with artificial. One side of this argument has no incentive to see the whole picture whatsoever and the other is lured in to become defensive about very specific areas that might favor Cristiano a little bit. I mean, I don't even have the slightest clue how Cruyff or di Stefano or Gerd Müller or which ever football icon you want to think of scored in the knockout stages of European club tournaments nor did I ever think such things would better in the greater scheme of things, yet in this thread it somehow seems as if this is THE go to criterion to judge a player. And there are countless examples of such excesses and they're already infecting the next generation of player discussions.
wonderful post my friend
In the meantime, mes que un cnut just got knocked out at the same stage as dreadful Juve; Sevilla got knocked out by the 6th placed German club. Let's see if RM hold onto their slender advantage over the 5th placed Serie A club.Right, and the team who are running away with the Serie A trophy came bottom in their CL group. Juventus just got knocked out by a 10 man Porto, you really didn't think this through did you?Serie A is obviously not as strong as La Liga, which is exactly what I said, and Ronaldo still has been beaten to the top scorer award by a 36 year old Quagliarela and an average Immobile since he's been there.
In that time Messi has been top goalscorer and top assister twice in a row, in a stronger league.
Spoken like a true member of the Messi brigade.
Where was he when Cristiano won 4 out of 5 CLs?
I wouldn't have it anywhere near the top just because they're in team sports. So much of their results "against" each other are dictated by the other 20 players on the pitch.
What we've seen in men's tennis the last 10 - 15 years has been a much greater rivalry.
Yes, continue to ignore the fact Ronaldo started as a winger and Messi a forward.
Ronaldo played a starring role in each of the CLs he won, unlike a certain someone who didn't feature from the QF onwards in one of his.
Pity Argentina can only field such terrible players as Mascherano, Aguero, Di Maria, Dybala, Higuain, Tevez, Banega & co, whereas Ronaldo has the all time great "scorer of goal" mighty Eder playing alongside him.
If you're going to ignore Juve titles, let's deduct 4 from Messi in 04/05, 05/06, 08/09 & 18/19, where without a cetain someone, Barca would have walked it anyway.
Let's no go over the farce that is the WC best player award.
Very good points. The assumptions are often along the lines of "Messi is a bette playmaker, and Ronaldo is the better shooter/striker" but Messi has a better goals per games ratio, and a better shots to goals ratio, and even more goals outside the box which most people don't even consider. The reduction of purely who scored what goal and when is done specifically to keep Ronaldo close to Messi in the debate when in reality it should be framed as "Messi keeps pace with Ronaldo's goal output in less games whilst assisting and playmaking a lot more". Trying to handpick specific qualifiers about specific goal amounts at specific times against specific opponents is just clown college stuff, done almost entirely by one side of the debate.
A goal is a goal is a goal, when football goes the way of basketball and have different points depending on where you score, we can talk about xG.
Again with the Messi brigade, dribbling is the all important attribue, heading means nothing, never mind if one directly results in goals and the other often leads nowhere.
That's the same competition where during the time they're both in La Liga, Ronaldo has a better goal/minute record than Messi?
Completely agree. Once is clearly better and has been for the past decade or so. This feels like a Kobe Vs LeBron debate after 2009, when the NBA was desperate for a rivalry despite the fact that by that point, LeBron was clearly a better player. Just like Messi, when LeBron superceded Kobe Bryant, he never looked back and the "rivalry" never made any sense.
Messi played deeper throughout their entire run, and was the main conduit via which Barcelona built their attacks. He was the guy creating for the team while Cristiano was the guy waiting on the 2 yard lines looking for goals.
Cristiano was the guy frowning when one of his teammates poched one of his goals, while Messi was the guy constantly giving up penalties and freekicks to teammates because goals aren't the only thing that define his dominance.
Seriously? It's well documents that Zlatan was forced out of Barca because Messi wanted to play upfront rather than on the wings; Villa was forced to play on the wing because of him.
As for penalties, when you're not very good at it, it's best to let someone else take them.
No idea why you would even waste your time with a post that doesn't address anything I've posted. Messi was giving away penalties, including to Ibrahimovic while Cristiano was fighting with teammates to take them.
Messi was focusing on creating goals while Cristiano had no interest in doing anything but waiting on the 2 yard line.
Yes, continue to ignore the fact Ronaldo started as a winger and Messi a forward.
Ronaldo played a starring role in each of the CLs he won, unlike a certain someone who didn't feature from the QF onwards in one of his.
Pity Argentina can only field such terrible players as Mascherano, Aguero, Di Maria, Dybala, Higuain, Tevez, Banega & co, whereas Ronaldo has the all time great "scorer of goal" mighty Eder playing alongside him.
If you're going to ignore Juve titles, let's deduct 4 from Messi in 04/05, 05/06, 08/09 & 18/19, where without a cetain someone, Barca would have walked it anyway.
Let's no go over the farce that is the WC best player award.
Messi played further forward yes, but because he was a better player at a younger age which comes into the argument of the better player. Messi has been great for longer than Ronaldo has.
Eder was the one who won the Euro's for Portugal with his goal. Ronaldo and Portugal finished 3rd in a group with 3 points vs Hungary, Iceland and Austria and were lucky that the 3rd placed rule was brought in. They then beat Croatia 1-0 due to a Quaresma goal. They then beat Poland on Penalties and Sanches was the only normal time scorer. They then played Wales of all teams. Then Ronaldo didn't feature for most of the final.
So 3 draws vs Hungary, Iceland and Austria. 1-0 win vs Croatia after extra time, 1-1 vs Poland and won on penalties, then beat Wales 2-0, then beat France in extra time 1-0.
Basically they won 1 game in normal time all tournament, Ronaldo scored 4 goals, 3 vs two average group stage teams and 1 vs Wales who were not exactly great. Ronaldo wasn't the reason Portugal won the Euro's, he wasn't their best player and didn't do much all tournament. They would have even been knocked out in normal rules.
I said that about Juve because Serie A has been a 1 team league for years. LL has Barca, Real and Atletico challenging most seasons.
Do show any shred of evidence he ever "fought" a teammate to take them.
Do you have a shred of evidence Messi forced Ibrahimovic out of Barcelona? I'll be waiting for actual evidence.
Everyone knew the rules heading into the tournament, the point of the group stage is to qualify for the next round, there's no luck involved. If only the top 2 qualify, they would have gone for it in the final group game and not just played out the draw.
Yet Ronaldo was the topscorer for Portugal who WON the Euro
They faced only one meaningful team and he played no role. They beat France with your hero on the sidelines.
Now, when it comes to the big tournament, we have seen that Ronaldo never managed to perform as well as Messi did in the world cup.[/QUOTE]
Which part of this constitutes "evidence" that Messi pushed Ibrahimovic out of Barcelona?
One helped his country win their first ever major trophy, the other scored NONE in the knockout stage as they defended their way to the final.
Pep Guardiola has been widely considered the reason behind Zlatan’s eventual departure from Barcelona, with the Swedish superstar hinting at the same in his autobiography. However, it seems Lionel Messi may have played a role in Zlatan essentially being forced out of the club after just one season.
Many consider his spell at Barcelona a failure, but Ibrahimovic did score 21 goals during the 2009/10 season, although he did have to bear the ignominy of his former side, Inter Milan knocking Barcelona out of the UEFA Champions League.
In addition, Lionel Messi wanted the central striker role, with Pep Guardiola benching the Swede often to start with Pedro and Theirry Henry alongside Messi. Ibrahimovic’s relationship with his Spanish coach deteriorated to the point where the pair stopped speaking.
Messi forced Pep to bench Zlatan
By being on the sidelines while they played the only decent team all tournament?
One was player of the tournament in the world cup. The other never had even an average performance in any world cup.
You seem to be struggling here. You claimed that Messi forced Ibrahimovic out of Barcelona. I asked you to provide evidence and you're scrambling because you can't back up something you just made up
Argentina beat Switzerland, Belgium and Holland (on penalties) to make the WC final.
Portugal beat Croatia, Poland (on pk) and Wales to make the Euro final
The Croatia side who finished above widely fancied Spain in the group, Poland who actually knocked out Switzerland in the previous round, and a Wales side who trased Belgium in the previous round.
Do post your evidence that Ronaldo fought a teammate to take penalties.
As soon as you do your bit. You made up something and can't provide evidence. I'm still waiting.
You posted your "fought a teammate" allegation before I said Messi forced Zlatan out.
I'm waiting...
https://theinfong.com/2017/02/see-l...himovic-barcelona-just-one-season-will-shock/
Zlatan Ibrahimovic was forced to leave Barcelona after just one season, because of “friction” between him and Lionel Messi.
This was revealed by the club’s former director, Marc Ingla.
You can wait all you want. Provide evidence that Messi "forced" Ibrahimovic out of Barcelona, or stop wasting my time.
See above
Are you trying to be disingenous? Read the quotes by Ingla and show me where he says Messi forced Ibrahimovic out of Barcelona.
It's a simple task. Either do it. Or move on.
You're still pretending you didn't allege Ronaldo fought a teammate for penalties.
I've been on this thread long before you, so you can move on if you can't prove your claim.
You find facts funny?
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