Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

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Would you guys take the players they were in 2009 or the 2019 versions are better ?
 
Luke1995 said:
Would you guys take the players they were in 2009 or the 2019 versions are better ?
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Ronaldo was better in 2009 imo.

I think Messi is better overall now compared to 2009, but he's definitely less explosive.

Messi's peak is still 2010-2011 to me. 2014-2015 is second.

Ronaldo's is probably 2013-2014 or 2011-2012, though I like his 2016-2017 version the most.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Ronaldo was better in 2009 imo.

I think Messi is better overall now compared to 2009, but he's definitely less explosive.

Messi's peak is still 2010-2011 to me. 2014-2015 is second.

Ronaldo's is probably 2013-2014 or 2011-2012, though I like his 2016-2017 version the most.
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One thing that Ronaldo really improved though are his performances for Portugal. In qualyfing for 2010 World Cup he really struggled to make an impact.

2011-2012 Ronaldo was very explosive, don't think he is at physical peak anymore

As for Messi, I think 12-13 was his goalscoring peak, he had a run of 20+ games scoring in La Liga. Playmaking was 14-15 and explosiveness probably peaked in 2011.
 
IMO there is no player that is the greatest of all time there are just a selection of players who the best of their generation and some who belong to the greatest of all time. But for a team game there is just no single player that is far better than anyone else. I wouldn't be able to say why Pelé was better Maradonna. They were completely different players who played in different positions and had different qualities. Similar compared Pele and De Stefano. With Beckbenbaur it doesnt really make sense to compare to a goalscorer, but he was still one of the greatest of all time. And how do you compare anyone to Cruyff who had the greatest football mind of all time? In the same way I would say that Messi and Ronaldo are just different kind of players. I would say that Messi is more gifted with the football at his feet as well as vision, but Cristiano is more athletic, mentally driven and seems to be equally effective for the teams he plays for.

There are a collection of football who are far better than the rest, but there is not single undisputed Goat.
 
Filipe said:
Pele played against terrible opposition.
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Brazil were the best national side in the world in Pele’s prime, with Pele being the best of them. All of the Brazilian national team played in Brazil.

If he played against poor opposition then so did every other player in the world.

The Brazilian top division was on par with the best leagues in Europe back then. It just so happens that as money started creeping into the game in Europe in the 80’s all the best players starter playing in Europe.

Look at now, all the best players in the world are basically at the top 20 richest clubs or less.
 



^internationally that magnifies 10x and as we all know, the world knows who the better leader is. One is always motivating teammates and displaying courageous body language - the other hangs his head in shame with no signs of hope and sulks miserably.
 
Sir Scott McToMinay said:
There isn’t a “we need to sign the next Cristiano Ronaldo” thread on the caf, and he was a United player.
Says it all really.
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Other than when he was linked to us the past number of years every time his contract was to be renewed and majority of the fan base was buzzing to get him back.

Nice try though :lol:
 
Shamana said:
IMO there is no player that is the greatest of all time there are just a selection of players who the best of their generation and some who belong to the greatest of all time. But for a team game there is just no single player that is far better than anyone else. I wouldn't be able to say why Pelé was better Maradonna. They were completely different players who played in different positions and had different qualities. Similar compared Pele and De Stefano. With Beckbenbaur it doesnt really make sense to compare to a goalscorer, but he was still one of the greatest of all time. And how do you compare anyone to Cruyff who had the greatest football mind of all time? In the same way I would say that Messi and Ronaldo are just different kind of players. I would say that Messi is more gifted with the football at his feet as well as vision, but Cristiano is more athletic, mentally driven and seems to be equally effective for the teams he plays for.

There are a collection of football who are far better than the rest, but there is not single undisputed Goat.
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Oh boy, you might want to change your identity and passport.

One doesn not simply come into Messi vs Ronaldo thread and post that.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
Brazil were the best national side in the world in Pele’s prime, with Pele being the best of them. All of the Brazilian national team played in Brazil.

If he played against poor opposition then so did every other player in the world.

The Brazilian top division was on par with the best leagues in Europe back then. It just so happens that as money started creeping into the game in Europe in the 80’s all the best players starter playing in Europe.

Look at now, all the best players in the world are basically at the top 20 richest clubs or less.
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Garrincha was superior to Pele in the Brazil NT. Played a bigger part in '58 and single-handedly won the '62 WC. Pele's reputation far exceeds his ability in my opinion.
 
Ole’s Wheel said:



^internationally that magnifies 10x and as we all know, the world knows who the better leader is. One is always motivating teammates and displaying courageous body language - the other hangs his head in shame with no signs of hope and sulks miserably.
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Hahaha no, not even close:




Ronaldo has had far moments of being a douche to his teammates than Messi. I don’t doubt Ronaldo’s mentality, and I certainly have seen Messi have his moments where he hangs his head.

However I think without question Messi is a better teammate and saying Ronaldo “motivates his team” is BS simply because he was a cheerleader on the sidelines.

Ronaldo lashes out at his teammates, cries about not getting the ball, and has had his share of being a fool when his teammates score.
 
Daysleeper said:
Hahaha no, not even close:




Ronaldo has had far moments of being a douche to his teammates than Messi. I don’t doubt Ronaldo’s mentality, and I certainly have seen Messi have his moments where he hangs his head.

However I think without question Messi is a better teammate and saying Ronaldo “motivates his team” is BS simply because he was a cheerleader on the sidelines.

Ronaldo lashes out at his teammates, cries about not getting the ball, and has had his share of being a fool when his teammates score.
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You realise it is pointless trying to argue who is the better teammate when you see them for 90 minutes per week - and don't see the hours of training etc that they are together as a team?

SO am not sure how you can state it as being without question - particularly given that so many of Ronaldo's ex teammates only speak incredibly highly of him.
 
swooshboy said:
You realise it is pointless trying to argue who is the better teammate when you see them for 90 minutes per week - and don't see the hours of training etc that they are together as a team?

SO am not sure how you can state it as being without question - particularly given that so many of Ronaldo's ex teammates only speak incredibly highly of him.
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And I’d argue just as many speak highly of Messi.

I’m not talking about training, I’m talking about on the pitch. You have stories all the time of Ronaldo acting like a brat towards his teammates because they got the goal and he didn’t.

Rarely see any issues of Messi with his teammates. Not saying it never happened, and I don’t honk Ronaldo is a bad teammate overall, but he’s had more than his share of outbursts on the pitch during the 90 minutes.

Don’t think Ramos and Bale think too highly of him
 
Funny how Ronaldo fans try now to take the discussion to who is a better teammate, which CR loses again, let it go. He jumps higher though, we give him credit for that.
 
Ronaldo is probably the most selfish player i've seen. Hardly a teamplayer or a leader. Look at Cantona as a player who had self-confidence as well as lifting his team.
 
Shamana said:
Ronaldo is probably the most selfish player i've seen. Hardly a teamplayer or a leader. Look at Cantona as a player who had self-confidence as well as lifting his team.
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Remember him scoring that insignificant penalty to make it 4-1 against Atl Madrid in the CL final, and celebrating like it was all about him when he did absolutely feck all the entire match.
 
Filipe said:
Pele played against terrible opposition.
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His goalscoring figures are padded through some of the regional football, but nobody remembers him for that. He's remembered because he up against the majority of the great defenders of his time - Beckenbauer, Schulz, Burgnich, Facchetti, Rosato, Moore, etc - and got the better of them all. He dominated Brazilian football, he dominated South America and he dominated the international game, both at club level (look at how he destroyed the European Champions Benfica) and for Brazil. It's hard to imagine him doing any more against top opposition frankly.
 
Shamana said:
Ronaldo is probably the most selfish player i've seen. Hardly a teamplayer or a leader. Look at Cantona as a player who had self-confidence as well as lifting his team.
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Yeah that's why he's the all time leading CL assister.

He's absolutely a leader as well.
 
Gio said:
His goalscoring figures are padded through some of the regional football, but nobody remembers him for that. He's remembered because he up against the majority of the great defenders of his time - Beckenbauer, Schulz, Burgnich, Facchetti, Rosato, Moore, etc - and got the better of them all. He dominated Brazilian football, he dominated South America and he dominated the international game, both at club level (look at how he destroyed the European Champions Benfica) and for Brazil. It's hard to imagine him doing any more against top opposition frankly.
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He hardly dominated South America when he only won two Copas Libertadores.
 
Filipe said:
Pele played against terrible opposition.
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antohan said:
Great stats but what you failed to do there, which is far more impressive, is order it by date.

Those were gruelling tours Santos engaged in to raise funds and which ultimately enabled them to keep Pelé (although he didn't earn that much comparatively, even had a shoe store jointly owned with a couple of other players).

I tired to transfer to excel but the formatting went tits up, so just did 1959 for reference, and particularly for those questioning whether he would be fit enough to deal with the modern game:

19 games in 39 days
11 wins, 4 draws, 4 defeats
69 goals for, 36 against, 24 goals scored by Pelé (1.26gpg)

05-26-1959 1-0 - Royal Standard
05-27-1959 4-2 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-30-1959 1-2 – Gentoise
06-03-1959 3-0 1 Feijenoord Rotterdam
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-09-1959 4-1 1 Servette Geneva
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-15-1959 5-0 3 Selection Enschede
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-19-1959 2-2 1 Sporting Lisboa
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
07-02-1959 0-3 – Austria Wien
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla

Look again at the fixtures, they regularly had to travel back and forth, and probably spent much of their resting time on a plane or train (e.g. 24/6 Valencia, 26/6 Milan, 28/6 Barcelona, 30/6 Genoa, 2/7 Austria Wien and 5/7 Betis back in Sevilla!).

Another remarkable thing is that he actually scores more as the tour progresses and he gets the hang of how these European teams try to go about stopping him :lol:

The guy was a fecking machine.
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Good post by antohan, he destroyed South American competition aswell as European and also international , what else was he supposed to prove :lol:
 
Sir Scott McToMinay said:
Remember him scoring that insignificant penalty to make it 4-1 against Atl Madrid in the CL final, and celebrating like it was all about him when he did absolutely feck all the entire match.
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On the other hand, Messi skies his penalty in a final and cries and quits instead. Much better.
 
Pocho said:
He hardly dominated South America when he only won two Copas Libertadores.
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In what - half a decade? Santos pulled out of the Copa Libertadores in the second half of the 1960s to make more money by taking part in global tours.

Worth highlighting too his record in international matches against South American nations - 35 goals in 36 games.
 
2mufc0 said:
Good post by antohan, he destroyed South American competition aswell as European and also international , what else was he supposed to prove :lol:
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Different list to Antohan - all games rather than one year. No more off topic posts but the 'Pele was average' implication made me laugh.

By all means take his N American stats with a pinch of salt but in terms of S American or European stats (and that's club and country), he scored past them all.

AUSTRIA
07-02-1959 0-3 – Austria Wien
1 defeat
0-3 goals
0 goals scored by Pelé

BELGIUM
05-26-1959 1-0 - Royal Standard
05-27-1959 4-2 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-30-1959 1-2 – Gentoise
05-19-1960 4-3 1 Royal Standard
05-28-1960 6-0 2 RSC Anderlecht
05-31-1960 10-1 4 Royal Beerschot
06-11-1960 5-2 2 Gentoise
06-12-1960 3-1 – Selection Antwerp
06-04-1961 4-4 – Selection Antwerp
03-01-1972 0-0 – RSC Anderlecht
03-06-1973 1-0 – Royal Standard
8 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
39-15 goals
11 goals scored by Pelé
73 % won
28 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-1, 1 goal by Pelé

CSSR
02-15-1959 3-4 – UDA Duklas
01-16-1965 6-4 3 Selection CSSR
01-13-1968 4-1 – Selection CSSR
2 wins, 1 defeat
13-9 goals
3 goals scored by Pelé
67 % won
23 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-3, 1 goal by Pelé

ENGLAND
10-22-1961 4-2 1 Sheffield Wednesday
09-22-1969 3-2 2 Stoke City
09-21-1970 2-2 2 West Ham United
02-02-1971 1-0 – FC Chelsea
02-21-1972 1-2 – Aston Villa
02-23-1972 2-0 - Sheffield Wednesday
06-04-1972 4-2 3 Newcastle United
06-13-1972 2-2 1 Coventry City
5 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
19-12 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
63 % won
47 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-1, 1 goal by Pelé

FRANCE
06-07-1960 5-3 1 Stade Reims
06-09-1960 4-1 1 Racing Paris
06-17-1960 3-1 1 Stade Reims
06-23-1960 3-0 2 FC Toulouse
06-07-1961 6-1 1 Racing Paris
06-09-1961 6-2 2 Olympique Lyonnais
06-13-1961 5-4 1 Racing Paris
10-17-1962 5-2 2 Racing Paris
03-31-1971 0-0 – Selection Marseille / St. Etienne
8 wins, 1 draw
37-14 goals
11 goals scored by Pelé
89 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 1 goal by Pelé

GREECE
06-28-1961 3-0 1 AEK Athens
06-30-1961 3-2 2 Panathinaikos Athens
07-04-1961 1-2 – Olimpiakos Piraeus
08-24-1966 1-0 – AEK Athens
3 wins, 1 defeat
8-4 goals
3 goals scored by Pelé
75 % won
38 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-1, 1 goal by Pelé

HUNGARY
02-10-1967 2-2 1 Vasas Budapest
01-23-1968 4-0 1 Vasas Budapest
1 wins, 1 draw
6-2 goals
2 goals scored by Pelé
50 % won
33 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 3-1, 1 goal by Pelé

IRELAND
02-26-1972 3-2 – Bohemians Drumcondra
1 win
3-2 goals
0 goals scored by Pelé

ITALY
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
06-01-1960 3-2 1 AS Roma
06-03-1960 0-3 – Fiorentina
06-18-1960 2-0 1 Juventus Torino
06-21-1961 5-0 2 AS Roma
06-24-1961 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-15-1963 4-3 2 AS Roma
06-19-1963 0-2 – Inter Milano
06-22-1963 0-4 – AC Milan
06-26-1963 3-5 1 Juventus Torino
10-16-1963 2-4 2 AC Milan
11-14-1963 4-2 – AC Milan
09-05-1966 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-17-1967 2-1 1 Mantua
06-20-1967 1-0 – Venice
06-24-1967 5-1 3 US Lecce
06-27-1967 1-1 – Fiorentina
06-29-1967 3-1 1 AS Roma
08-26-1967 0-1 – Inter Milano
06-09-1968 2-1 – Cagliari
06-12-1968 2-0 1 Alexandria
06-21-1968 4-2 1 SSC Napoli
06-26-1968 6-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-28-1968 5-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-24-1969 1-0 – Inter Milano
09-24-1969 7-1 2 Combination Geneva / Genoa
06-23-1971 2-1 1 Bologna
06-27-1971 1-1 - Bologna
06-30-1971 1-0 1 Bologna
03-03-1972 2-0 – AS Roma
03-05-1972 3-2 2 SSC Napoli
04-29-1972 1-0 – SSC Napoli
05-01-1972 3-2 2 Cagliari
06-25-1972 7-1 2 Catanzaro
05-25-1973 3-0 1 Lazio Roma
05-28-1973 4-2 2 Lazio Roma
29 wins, 2 draws, 7 defeats
110-55 goals
41 goals scored by Pelé
76 % won
37 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 3-1, 1 goal by Pelé

NETHERLANDS
06-03-1959 3-0 1 Feijenoord Rotterdam
06-15-1959 5-0 3 Selection Enschede
2 wins
8-0 goals
4 goals scored by Pelé
100 % won
50 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-0, 2 goals by Pelé

PORTUGAL
06-19-1957 6-1 3 Belenses
07-23-1957 3-2 1 Benfica Lisboa
06-19-1959 2-2 1 Sporting Lisboa
06-15-1961 6-3 2 Benfica Lisboa
09-19-1962 3-2 2 Benfica Lisboa
10-11-1962 5-2 3 Benfica Lisboa
08-21-1966 4-0 1 Benfica Lisboa
08-18-1968 4-2 – Benfica Lisboa
09-01-1968 3-3 – Benfica Lisboa
7 wins, 2 draws
36-17 goals
13 goals scored by Pelé
78 % won
36 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 1 goal by Pelé

SPAIN
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla
06-19-1960 2-2 – Espanol Barcelona
06-25-1960 1-0 – FC Valencia
07-02-1960 3-4 1 FC Barcelona
06-12-1963 0-2 – FC Barcelona
08-28-1967 1-4 – Deportivo Espanol Malaga
08-29-1967 2-1 – Malaga
09-17-1969 3-1 – Atletico Madrid
08-31-1974 0-2 – Espanol Barcelona
09-01-1974 1-4 1 FC Elche
09-03-1974 3-2 2 Real Zaragoza
5 wins, 3 draws, 6 defeats
30-34 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
36 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-2, 1 goal by Pelé

SWEDEN
01-12-1957 1-0 – AIK Stockholm
1 win
1-0 goals
0 goals scored by Pelé

SWITZERLAND
06-09-1959 4-1 1 Servette Geneva
06-01-1961 8-2 3 FC Basel
06-15-1968 4-5 1 FC Zürich
2 wins, 1 defeat
16-8 goals
5 goals scored by Pelé
66 % won
31 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 5-3, 2 goals by Pelé

WEST GERMANY
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
05-27-1960 9-1 3 TSV 1860 Munich
06-01-1960 4-2 2 Eintracht
06-15-1960 4-2 1 Selection Berlin
06-03-1961 6-3 2 VfL Wolfsburg
06-26-1961 8-6 3 Karlsruher SC
10-20-1961 3-3 2 FC Hamburg
05-29-1963 3-2 1 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-02-1963 2-1 1 FC Schalke 04
06-05-1963 5-2 4 Eintracht
06-08-1963 3-1 1 VfB Stuttgart
06-13-1967 5-4 2 TSV 1860 Munich
06-17-1967 3-0 1 Selection Saarland
07-30-1971 3-1 – Hannover 96
02-27-1973 0-3 – Combination Bavaria
06-10-1973 5-0 1 Arminia Bielefeld
16 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
85-39 goals
29 goals scored by Pelé
84 % won
34 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 2 goals by Pelé

YUGOSLAVIA
06-22-1957 1-1 1 Dinamo Zagreb
09-10-1969 3-3 1 Red Star Belgrade
09-12-1969 1-1 – Dinamo Zagreb
09-15-1969 4-4 1 Danick Kragulevac
09-19-1969 1-1 1 Zeljesnicar
5 draws
10-10 goals
4 goals scored by Pelé
0 % won
40 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-2, 1 goal by Pelé
144 goals in 130 (I think). Away all the time, always on the road

(@antohan .... in case you're interested).
 
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Daysleeper said:
And I’d argue just as many speak highly of Messi.

I’m not talking about training, I’m talking about on the pitch. You have stories all the time of Ronaldo acting like a brat towards his teammates because they got the goal and he didn’t.

Rarely see any issues of Messi with his teammates. Not saying it never happened, and I don’t honk Ronaldo is a bad teammate overall, but he’s had more than his share of outbursts on the pitch during the 90 minutes.

Don’t think Ramos and Bale think too highly of him
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When has Ronaldo had a problem with a teammate? His relationship with the Madrid dressing room was fantastic, as it is in Turin and it's the same with Portugal. Got along extremely well with Ramos and was one of the few that actually talked to Bale since he speaks english. Look at their talk after the 2016 Euros semifinal. Messi's the one who gets reports all the time of having favourites in the dressing room and way too much influence, hence why Barcelona spent the last season getting called 'club de amigos' by the press in Spain.

For all the cries about Ronaldo's selfishness and him being an egocentric, his teammates certainly don't seem to get the same impression for some reason. If they disliked him and there had been dressing room problems maybe his teams wouldn't have regularly overperformed and Ronaldo wouldn't have been european champion more times in a decade than FC Barcelona in its entire history.

In the past few years he's undoubtedly been a great team player, leader and captain. Even if it wasn't the case when he was younger.
 
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