Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[MalcolmTucker]

Yeah, I'm firmly in the Messi is better camp but that bicycle kick is creating something out of nothing.

Not as good as Messi vs. Real Madrid as far as great CL goals go though.

 

[kouroux]

Wednesday proved this theory to be false.

Both can create moments if magic e.g Ronaldo bicycle kick or long range hits, incredible headers (e.g Roma) .

I never said he couldn't, just that Messi does it on a much more regular frequency.

 

[Zehner]

Mental gymnastics at its peak.

Where the feck is this mental gymnastics? He touched the ball once in the whole attack and that was in the box. How did the ball get there? Did it just magically appear out of nowhere? It is a testament to his outstanding finishing and movement quality but he didn't create that goal.

 

[roonster09]

Where the feck is this mental gymnastics? He touched the ball once in the whole attack and that was in the box. How did the ball get there? Did it just magically appear out of nowhere? It is a testament to his outstanding finishing and movement quality but he didn't create that goal.

Saying he didn't create the goal is.

 

[Zehner]

I don't think we'll ever agree, it's nuts to me what you are saying though. Without delivery from others Ronaldo can hardly score, Messi can be the opposite

Saying he didn't create the goal is.

The first quote started this debate. He talks about 'without delivery from others' and the example you bring up to counter that is a bicycle kick literally scored after a cross aka a delivery?

As I said, a brillant goal, all things considered probably the best bicycle kick I've seen, but still a terrible example of Ronaldo scoring 'without delivery'.

 

[roonster09]

The first quote started this debate. He talks about 'without delivery from others' and the example you bring up to counter that is a bicycle kick literally scored after a cross aka a delivery?

As I said, a brillant goal, all things considered probably the best bicycle kick I've seen, but still a terrible example of Ronaldo scoring 'without delivery'.

Check the goal vs Barca last season or against Dortmund. I'm sure you will argue some player passed the ball to Ronaldo outside the box.

What Kouroux meant was tap ins, not overhead kicks.

 

[Gehrman]

Even though im in the messi camp there is no doubt he is the king of the cl. Will probably win the feckers the cl this year. Incredible player

 

[kouroux]

The first quote started this debate. He talks about 'without delivery from others' and the example you bring up to counter that is a bicycle kick literally scored after a cross aka a delivery?

As I said, a brillant goal, all things considered probably the best bicycle kick I've seen, but still a terrible example of Ronaldo scoring 'without delivery'.

Don't bring me into this
That bicycle kick made the assist instead of the assist making the goal.
Worst example you could have used

 

[Hala Madrid]

See, we were talking about goals that were not only scored but also created by the eventual goal scorer. Goals created independently. In this scenario, he had one action and this took place already in the box. It is obvious that he wouldn't have scored it if not for the build up and the cross. You really can't see the difference?

Don't be a fool, no goal is ever created and scored by the same person, even Maradona's goal had someone pick him out to give the pass; at best you can initiate or start a goal bound play like Ronaldo against Ajax (watch the buildup) or the regular one-twos in Barca...no one will or can ever create and score a goal independently, someone always creates for him, whether it is at the middle of the pitch or in the 18-yard box...
Let your favouritism not cloud your judgment...and don't be naive

 

[Zehner]

Don't bring me into this
That bicycle kick made the assist instead of the assist making the goal.
Worst example you could have used

Of course the bicycle kick made the assist and not the other way round. The cross definitely was shit but that wasn't what I meant. A goal is usually the last in a series of plays. My point was that no matter how good the finish was it was still the last touch in this series which is why it did need a delivery. That's why I don't think it's a good argument to prove that Cristiano doesn't need service. He's just ridiculously good at converting this service.

 

[Zehner]

Don't be a fool, no goal is ever created and scored by the same person, even Maradona's goal had someone pick him out to give the pass; at best you can initiate or start a goal bound play like Ronaldo against Ajax (watch the buildup) or the regular one-twos in Barca...no one will or can ever create and score a goal independently, someone always creates for him, whether it is at the middle of the pitch or in the 18-yard box...
Let your favouritism not cloud your judgment...and don't be naive

True. Still there's not just black and white. Maradona took the ball in his own half, dribbled the whole team and beat the goal keeper on top of that. Usually in such an attack there are 4-5 players involved and he just decided to do all this on his own. Cristiano still was on the receiving end. His team still needed to build up the play and make it to the box without his help. And that's what I mean with requiring service. The young Ronaldo is a different story but this one doesn't pick up the ball when his team has no idea how to even get near the opposition's goal and makes something happen. He leaves this responsibility to others and if they do their job, he'll do his.

 

[MrEleson]

See, we were talking about goals that were not only scored but also created by the eventual goal scorer. Goals created independently. In this scenario, he had one action and this took place already in the box. It is obvious that he wouldn't have scored it if not for the build up and the cross. You really can't see the difference?

Wrong.

If we started using your ridiculous logic, we also have to count the run he made from Marcelo's long ball which resulted in Ronaldo playing the ball to Vasquez when he received it; who's shot on goal was saved into the path of Carvajal who THEN made the cross for the Bicycle kick goal.

The whole play wouldn't have happened without his initial run that caused the error from Chiellini and Buffon.

P.S. He had no business scoring like he did in that situation. The cross was just a desperate thump into the area from Carvajal who was under pressure. It wasn't aimed at anyone so that alone makes it a goal created from REALLY nothing...

Also, using this truly ludicrous approach, we may aswell say that any goal that isn't literally taking the ball from the goal-line was NOT created independently.

 

[Hala Madrid]

True. Still there's not just black and white. Maradona took the ball in his own half, dribbled the whole team and beat the goal keeper on top of that. Usually in such an attack there are 4-5 players involved and he just decided to do all this on his own. Cristiano still was on the receiving end. His team still needed to build up the play and make it to the box without his help. And that's what I mean with requiring service. The young Ronaldo is a different story but this one doesn't pick up the ball when his team has no idea how to even get near the opposition's goal and makes something happen. He leaves this responsibility to others and if they do their job, he'll do his.[/QUOTE

True. Still there's not just black and white. Maradona took the ball in his own half, dribbled the whole team and beat the goal keeper on top of that. Usually in such an attack there are 4-5 players involved and he just decided to do all this on his own. Cristiano still was on the receiving end. His team still needed to build up the play and make it to the box without his help. And that's what I mean with requiring service. The young Ronaldo is a different story but this one doesn't pick up the ball when his team has no idea how to even get near the opposition's goal and makes something happen. He leaves this responsibility to others and if they do their job, he'll do his.

You are completely wrong, a player doesn't necessarily need to dribble from the middle of the field to be involve in the play, a player like Ronaldo just makes two or three simple passes which makes the opponent's defenders change movements, and then he directs his mates on where to lay the ball while he runs into space in the box to score, anyone who doesn't understand this doesn't know anything about football.
Besides, Messi being more involved in play doesn't make him a better player...so, I don't know why this is a bone of contention...

 

[VanKenny]

You guys dont have to be so dense. Its common sense really, Messi can create something out of nowhere while CR7 needs a bit more help. The bicycle kick was an amazing goal, yes, but if the cross gets blocked, or if the crosser screws up, then CR7 never scores that goal.

Messi vs Real Madrid on the semis of the CL(what a choker) is a good example of a player creating something out of nothing. Now that is truly a goal that can be created by a 3 or 4 of players in the history of the sport.

Messi vs Bayern on the semis of the CL(what a choker) is another good example. Dribbling past arguably the best CB in the world at the time and making him look like a fool in the process, turning him into a worldwide meme, then chipping Neuer like he was a 3rd division keeper.

Messi vs Athletic on the cup final (yes i know, its the cup, its basically a FIFA game, not professional). Thats another example of Messi creating something by himself.



So its clearly obvious that CR7 needs his teammates more than Messi, even on the CL's he has won, the semis and the finals have always been won basically by CR7's teammates. The one euro final was literally won without him on the pitch. CR7's has never performed in a CL semifinal the way Messi performed vs Bayern or vs Real Madrid, and has never performed on a final the way Messi performed vs United on both ocassions.

CR7 NEEDS service, thats a fact. Messi IS the service, on top of being the best goalscorer of all time.

 

[Tostao_80]

This is the thing that Cristiano fans don't seem to realise. By historical standards, the players deemed the greatest of all, are elevated to that level because they had the output and trophies, AND crucially because they were total footballers who were involved in the game more than their counterparts. Cruyff was involved and ran games, likewise Di Stefano, likewise (and more pointedly) Diego.
Gerd Muller had more output and the trophy cabinet to better all these aforementioned players. Why isn't he considered in their company (heck there are many who even consider Beckenbauer greater)? He wasn't as involved in the game and wasn't anywhere near as influential as those.

Another example, lets look at World Cup 1970. Who was voted player of the tournament? Was it Muller with his 10 goals, Jairzinho's 7 goals and his record of scoring in every round, or Pele and his relatively measly 4 goals?
Cristiano fans would have voted for Muller or Jairzinho based on their arguments.
Player of the tournament was indeed Pele. He was magisterial. And look who came second, (it wasn't even Jairzinho nor Muller) it was the midfielder Gerson.

When you are aspiring to sit at the highest table possible, Messi's overall game, influence and involvement in the game gives him a step up on Cristiano. It's why he is compared to these guys. How many people do you honestly hear compare Cristiano to Pele and Diego? Not many lets be honest, and there's a reason for that. His GAME is simply not as influential as the very best, and that's why he'll always be considered a rung below.

 

[MrEleson]

Another example, lets look at World Cup 1970. Who was voted player of the tournament? Was it Muller with his 10 goals, Jairzinho's 7 goals and his record of scoring in every round, or Pele and his relatively measly 4 goals?
Cristiano fans would have voted for Muller or Jairzinho based on their arguments.
Player of the tournament was indeed Pele. He was magisterial. And look who came second, (it wasn't even Jairzinho nor Muller) it was the midfielder Gerson.

Messi was named player of the tournament at the 2014 World Cup but we all know that he was far from that so the accuracy of these awards aren’t always the best. Messi was simply the biggest name that made it the furthest. I’m not saying that was necessarily the case in Pele’s time (I didn’t see any of the 1970 World Cup) but we can’t completely dismiss there being any hint of bias in his favour because of his reputation. After all, you always hear him receiving huge plaudits for his 3 WC triumphs despite hardly featuring in ‘62 which was a tournament that Garrincha was the star of despite getting little recognition in comparison to Pele for it decades later.

Also, Ronaldo is a better all-round player than Gerd Muller.

 

[Tostao_80]

Messi was named player of the tournament at the 2014 World Cup but we all know that he was far from that so the accuracy of these awards aren’t always the best. Messi was simply the biggest name that made it the furthest. I’m not saying that was necessarily the case in Pele’s time (I didn’t see any of the 1970 World Cup) but we can’t completely dismiss there being any hint of bias in his favour because of his reputation. After all, you always hear him receiving huge plaudits for his 3 WC triumphs despite hardly featuring in ‘62 which was a tournament that Garrincha was the star of despite getting little recognition in comparison to Pele for it decades later.

Also, Ronaldo is a better all-round player than Gerd Muller.

I didn't say that Ronaldo isn't a better all round player than Gerd Muller was (he is better no question). My point was that, just like Muller (though Mullers case was more extreme), his overall game isn't influential enough at GOAT level (like Messi, Diego and Cruyff).
What qualities as footballers did Diego and Cruyff have that simply elevated them? Was it off the ball movement and heading (admirably qualities they may be)? or was it their dribbling, passing and creativity?
I mean, it could easily be argued that Cristiano's peak overall game doesn't even touch peak Dinho, never mind peak Leo.

 

[2mufc0]

Messi has suffered a lot more since Xaviesta retired, I used to think he was the very best until I realised he can only perform under certain circumstances. It's quite ironic Messi fans bring up his best moments they were 5+ years ago. Drop Ronaldo in any top team under any play style and he will deliver the goods.

 

[Zehner]

Messi has suffered a lot more since Xaviesta retired, I used to think he was the very best until I realised he can only perform under certain circumstances. It's quite ironic Messi fans bring up his best moments they were 5+ years ago. Drop Ronaldo in any top team under any play style and he will deliver the goods.

Like in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2015?

By the way, when was Cristiano's prime in your opinion?

 

[Zehner]

Wrong.

If we started using your ridiculous logic, we also have to count the run he made from Marcelo's long ball which resulted in Ronaldo playing the ball to Vasquez when he received it; who's shot on goal was saved into the path of Carvajal who THEN made the cross for the Bicycle kick goal.

The whole play wouldn't have happened without his initial run that caused the error from Chiellini and Buffon.

P.S. He had no business scoring like he did in that situation. The cross was just a desperate thump into the area from Carvajal who was under pressure. It wasn't aimed at anyone so that alone makes it a goal created from REALLY nothing...

Also, using this truly ludicrous approach, we may aswell say that any goal that isn't literally taking the ball from the goal-line was NOT created independently.

Now you are getting closer. We should absolutely count these things, not only the goal itself. It's not about who's got the last touch before the ball passed the line but who contributed the most to the goal. In the goal you mentioned, it is clearly Cristiano because the overhead kick was obviously the most difficult play in the chain of events that lead to the goal. Still, it needed delivery to happen, even if the delivery was poor, and that's the only thing I'm pointing out.

That's the different. Cristiano is completely outstanding inside the box but he's not that brillant in all the things that lead to these situations. His link up play is good, his dribbling is good (and used to be excellent), his runs in behind are outstanding, his through balls are okay, his crosses good and so forth. But if you look at Messi, he's best of his generation in every single area and he makes it count. If you interpret a goal as a series of typical plays then Messi is the best you can hope for in almost every step of the offensive "supply chain" while the Ronaldo that won 4 of his 5 CLs is only era-definingly good in two or three areas.

 

[Pocho]

It is funny the effort that the Ronaldo's grupies put to conpare him with the best player ever, funny but admirable though

 

[MJJ]

Check the goal vs Barca last season or against Dortmund. I'm sure you will argue some player passed the ball to Ronaldo outside the box.

What Kouroux meant was tap ins, not overhead kicks.

He will probably argue Ronaldo 40 feet rocket against Porto was assisted too.

 

[Tostao_80]

It is funny the effort that the Ronaldo's grupies put to conpare him with the best player ever, funny but admirable though

To be fair, Cristiano is an all time great so we cant knock him for that.
He's just not in the league of the Diegos, Leos and the Peles, which is no slight.
Being great at headers and off the ball movement (wasnt Muller also?) Can only get you so far.

 

[Hala Madrid]

Like in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2015?

By the way, when was Cristiano's prime in your opinion?

2011-2013 Ronaldo was prime Ronaldo and the most complete player I've ever seen till date; he could dribble like messi...in a different style, give outrageous passes like messi and lots of assists like messi, he could head the ball, score from any part of his body, score from any part of the field, freekicks and penalties were on point, same with long range goals...the types messi can't even dream of doing, he also had outstanding positioning and off the ball movement albeit not as good as this present iteration of Ronaldo

 

[The holy trinity 68]

2011-2013 Ronaldo was prime Ronaldo and the most complete player I've ever seen till date; he could dribble like messi...in a different style, give outrageous passes like messi and lots of assists like messi, he could head the ball, score from any part of his body, score from any part of the field, freekicks and penalties were on point, same with long range goals...the types messi can't even dream of doing, he also had outstanding positioning and off the ball movement albeit not as good as this present iteration of Ronaldo

I am sorry but the bolded part is either exaggeration or delusion. Ronaldo has never been able to pass the ball like Messi, Messi can pass the ball better than Scholes and that was Scholes’ best attribute.

Ronaldo assists are barely at the same level as Messi. An assist is an assist and they are worth the same but it doesn’t mean Ronaldo was as good as Messi at assists. It just means he had an assist stat of a similar total to Messi.

 

[Zehner]

2011-2013 Ronaldo was prime Ronaldo and the most complete player I've ever seen till date; he could dribble like messi...in a different style, give outrageous passes like messi and lots of assists like messi, he could head the ball, score from any part of his body, score from any part of the field, freekicks and penalties were on point, same with long range goals...the types messi can't even dream of doing, he also had outstanding positioning and off the ball movement albeit not as good as this present iteration of Ronaldo

Funny that seemingly all Cristiano supporters think that that version of Ronaldo was the best yet in this debate they keep arguing with the titles won by the older Cristiano. Wouldn't that mean that he should be regarded as the better player? I mean, he's got far more goals in the KO stages of the CL, was definitely more clutch, and so forth.

 

[Charles Miller]

Aguero, Di Maria, Mascherano, Higuain..They are all old now but what a fantastic group of players it was. There is no excuse. If you are Brazilian, Argentinian or German, in order to be considered the goat you need to lead your NT in a major title.

 

[shahzy]

To be fair, Cristiano is an all time great so we cant knock him for that.
He's just not in the league of the Diegos, Leos and the Peles, which is no slight.
Being great at headers and off the ball movement (wasnt Muller also?) Can only get you so far.

This post and similar posts are laughable really and used as a defence by each and every Messi fan. To try and diminish Messi's biggest rival to try and once and for all conclude that Messi is better they say Ronaldo is just all about 'off the ball movement'

Completely disregarding that he is way past his physical prime and has switched into this striker/off the ball movement guy but that doesn't mean he was always like this. Last time I checked whilst Ronaldo was still playing left forward/wing, Messi was already playing false 9 under Guardiola scoring tap in city but ofcourse short term memory with cognitive bias exists

 

[roonster09]

He will probably argue Ronaldo 40 feet rocket against Porto was assisted too.

He had only one action, just finishing the move.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Being great at headers and off the ball movement (wasnt Muller also?) Can only get you so far.

I'm firmly in the Messi camp, but it's daft and disingenuous statements like these that make this thread so tedious.

 

[Rito]

It is funny the effort that the Ronaldo's grupies put to conpare him with the best player ever, funny but admirable though

The only funny thing is your unintelligent one-liners.
And the guy who brings onze d'ors into picture to prove messi's supposed "supremacy".

 

[Hala Madrid]

Funny that seemingly all Cristiano supporters think that that version of Ronaldo was the best yet in this debate they keep arguing with the titles won by the older Cristiano. Wouldn't that mean that he should be regarded as the better player? I mean, he's got far more goals in the KO stages of the CL, was definitely more clutch, and so forth.

Yeah, just like you messi fans think his 2011 version was the best even, by the way Ronaldo won the league and copa del rey that period...so it wasn't like he was trophy less; the major difference is that this present Ronaldo is the most decisive and clutch player in history

 

[Cal?]

To be fair, Cristiano is an all time great so we cant knock him for that.
He's just not in the league of the Diegos, Leos and the Peles, which is no slight.
Being great at headers and off the ball movement (wasnt Muller also?) Can only get you so far.

Since you're so absolutely sure of yourself, why bother posting here, go live in your little world where you continue to believe your opinions are FACHTS.

 

[Righteous Steps]

There a few forwards who are better passers and dribblers than Ronaldo, let alone Messi, laughable to argue for him
In any of those aspects, the only aspect he is comparable is his finishing, that’s it.

 

[Righteous Steps]

2011-2013 Ronaldo was prime Ronaldo and the most complete player I've ever seen till date; he could dribble like messi...in a different style, give outrageous passes like messi and lots of assists like messi, he could head the ball, score from any part of his body, score from any part of the field, freekicks and penalties were on point, same with long range goals...the types messi can't even dream of doing, he also had outstanding positioning and off the ball movement albeit not as good as this present iteration of Ronaldo

He could never dribble or pass like Messi, heck he can’t or never has been able to dribble as well as Hazard or Neymar, these two are probably better passers or the ball also.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Wow, this really is the worst thread on redcafe.

 

[Black Adder]

Since you're so absolutely sure of yourself, why bother posting here, go live in your little world where you continue to believe your opinions are FACHTS.

If only you would follow you own advice...

 

[MJJ]

He could never dribble or pass like Messi, heck he can’t or never has been able to dribble as well as Hazard or Neymar, these two are probably better passers or the ball also.

 

[Righteous Steps]

It’s true, in fact there have been times in the last few seasons Hazard has been pretty close to Messi, statistically they have both been the best dribblers in the world over more than 3-4 seasons, Neymar too has crazy games where he would complete 7-8 dribbles at a time, this has never been in Ronaldos remit in the same way, not at least since he was a young winger at United, all are undoubtedly better dribblers than Cristiano, the stats confirm this, as does our two eyes(well for most of us anyways).

 

[MJJ]

It’s true, in fact there have been times in the last few seasons Hazard has been pretty close to Messi, statistically they have both been the best dribblers in the world over more than 3-4 seasons, Neymar too has crazy games where he would complete 7-8 dribbles at a time, this has never been in Ronaldos remit in the same way, not at least since he was a young winger at United, all are undoubtedly better dribblers than Cristiano, the stats confirm this, as does our two eyes(well for most of us anyways).

I am sorry no. This isn't worth even debating.