He was a wide forward in a pure 4-3-3-. Which is still pretty much a striking position. His rival was a pure winger im a 4-4-2 and a 4-2-3-1/4-5-1 at the time.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Messi's ability to score a very similar amount since Ronaldo joined RM is very impressive, considering the very different roles they play. Messi creates his goals, starts attacks and is basically a playmaker now yet is still on a goal a game. Ronaldo can't do that.
I really don't understand why people argue Messi isn't the best simply because he has only ever played for Barcelona. It's called loyalty. Sorry that he doesn't want change, some players don't want to move around the world. He's been there for 15+years, the team has completely changed in that time and he's adapted to it. First you say he's nothing without Xavi, then Iniesta, now you're arguing it's because he's stayed in the same team. It's gone through different managers, players and yet still produces tons of goals. That means different tactics and styles of play.
The " disrespect" I guess you can call it and under rating of Ronaldo on here is incredible to see. All because it is unfathomable for Messi fans and it hurts their pride to know he is in par or even better than Messi. Don't even bother doing an argument saying otherwise because if Messi was so much better this would not even be a topic for the past 12 years.
Messi is arguably the best playmaker in the world, while also being as good of a goalscorer as Ronaldo, it’s a struggle to see why it’s an argument anymore.
Exactly, it’s not like the football world voted Ronaldo the better player for 7 of the last 12 years.
That is not why. I am not knocking his loyalty. The pure fact is Messi as incredible as he is which he is truly remarkable is a system player. No debate on that really. The proof is with Argentina as well where he has world class players so that cant be a complaint but rather they dont play the system and style he does at Barca.
The greatest manger of all time SAF said the same thing. You can put Ronaldo in any other team in the world dont matter which team and he will perform and give you the same output. The same can not be said with Messi... If he played in England his numbers would not be the same as in Barca that much is just obvious. I am not knocking him asa a player I actually like Messi a lot I even have his jersey and a poster on my wall besides Ronaldo not that that matters but still. Messi is a mentally weak player like very. Messi was blessed and luckily enough to be born around the time of the greatest club team in history where most of his success came from. That philosophy and style helps him.
More important than nominal position on the pitch is the actual role in the team that player has. Ronaldo has gradually transformed into a player that is not a classic CF, but is first and foremost a goalscorer. Messi has for most of his career played in a deeper role. The fact that he is able to score as much (and even more) while being an elite playmaker at the same time is why he is the best.
But, as I already said, no point in arguing with people who are incredibly biased and understand football only at a level of a computer game. I can't say which is more ridiculous: counting cup trophies or scoring stats in "big matches" (which for some reason seem to exclude league games) as the ultimate proof of footballing excellence.
But, as I already said, no point in arguing with people who are incredibly biased and understand football only at a level of a computer game. I can't say which is more ridiculous: counting cup trophies or scoring stats in "big matches" (which for some reason seem to exclude league games) as the ultimate proof of footballing excellence.
Following that logic taking shots from your own half would be the best thing to do. That being said, why do keepers try to get the ball to team mates when executing goal kicks? They could just go for the shot.
There are many intangibles when describing a GOAT. Hence why event ho Lebron James has better stats then Jordan. MJ is still considered by many the goat because of intangibles his attitude his mindset his I want to be better then you and I will win this game mindset. Those things matte just as much.
Yeah but the same world thinks Ramos is the best defender so yeah
The fact of the matter is. IF Ronaldo helps win Juve the CL this year or when he does because I dont think it will happen this year. This debate to me can be closed. He will have nothing left to prove.
I think Many people specific hatred towards Ronaldo grew when he caught Messi. Their was a point where Messi was what 4 to 1 ? on Balon d or and they thought yep that's it he's the greatest. Then the will power and hunger for Ronaldo to catch him and surpass him drove many Messi fans off the deep end and the hatred grew more towards him. They refused to believe and hated the fact Ronaldo caught what seemed impossible to catch. Messi was on route to what? 7 or 8 balon d or but then the GOAT came and here we are.
Besides, everybody wants to play for Barcelona, ask any latin player, why would he want to leave? Just to make Peyroteo and Cal? happy?
You are missing the point. This thread is the most stubborn and hard headed. For both sides.
Not really, shooting isn’t the aim of the game, scoring is. How often to shots from goalkeepers go in?
For all his faults, his had a career better than any other defender in his generation.
You are missing Ballon D'or thing and no. of CL wins. These things had great significance to history. For example, I never watched Platini played, but hearing him winning it 3 times, plus those classical footage, there's no doubt in my mind back then he was fecking great player.
Another example is Di Stefano. Never watched him played too, not even in any footage. But hearing him winning European Cup (CL) 5 times, total domination, scoring lots of goals too, must be a fecking amazing player.
Now lets look at Ronaldo and Messi. Winning Ballon D'or 5 times each, completely dominate the whole decade, insane stats, insane no. of trophies won, CL 5 times for Ronaldo, 3 or 4 times for Messi, plus some youtube footage showcasing their best skills/goals etc. Now, tell me, how will people think when looking at these in future. Fecking GOAT.
Bold statement from one as impartial as yourself.
Have you seen Ronaldo play lately for Juventus? He is playing like a winger half of the time, keep crossing and creating goalscoring chances for his teammates. He is currently at 2nd place in Serie A top assist table too. His time in United, he has done pretty good in creating chances and assists too. Yes Ronaldo can't do what Messi does, creating chances in playmaker role. He is never a playmaker and rarely plays any through balls. But Messi can't create chances in winger role like Ronaldo does all the time nowadays in Juventus, and back in those days in United too. He is never a winger and rarely play any crosses too.
It's great when a player racks up assists, but that's by no means a measure of creativity. I'd guess that Suarez gets more assists than Iniesta did. Does that make him a playmaker on Iniesta's level? Their roles and duties were completely different. Playmaking is more about an ability to break and disrupt defense with the ball at your feet, often from a deeper position on the pitch. And it's quite a rare ability. There's much more to it than launching a cross or making a last touch before the goal.
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That Messi>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CR?
I don't get what you mean, Messi used to create plenty chances playing on the right, Ronaldo has very good final third passing, Messi has better plus he can operate from deep in a way Ronaldo can't, the only part of Ronaldo's game comparable to Messi is his goalscoring, and even then you could say thats marginally better, on the flip side, Messis passing dribbling and general playmaking is levels above Ronaldo's, like i said the more you analyze things the less it starts to look like an even contest.
Having a better career doesn't mean you were the better player. Cristiano may end up with a better career than Leo, Leo will still be seen aa the better player. There are countless examples of this in the past. Compare Carrick and Redondo, who achieved more? Who is seen as better? Compare Batistuta to the many other strikers of his time that were winning trophies, whilst he only won that 1 Serie A title. Vieri too, what did he win? Wasnt he better than Inzhagi? Inzhagi had a much better career.
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Messi is clearly better dribbler and playmaker, he is essentially playmaker/goalscorer hybrid, which is amazing. Ronaldo isn't, he is essentialy winger/wing forward/goal scorer hybrid over his career. But what else does winger role do? I really think Ronaldo cross the ball better, although Messi is clearly better passer. Do you know Ronaldo has 173 assists throughout his career? Messi has 212 assists. The numbers are not that far apart.
If young people these days say Cruyff>>>>>>>>>>Di Stefano, or vice versa, I'd call that total bullshite.
Only one thing I can be sure of, they will be ranked very close in 50 years time by future generation.
Which player is more dangerous with the ball at his feet, on the wing? Which one is more likely to create something?
Forget the assists. Assists are great, but they don't tell the whole story. Suarez probably gets more assists than Iniesta or Zidane did.
Bad examples, they are different types of playmaker. What Zidane does is mainly control the pace of game, pulling the string in midfield all the time, that's no what Messi does at all. Messi is great at starting attacking move, dribbling, playing those one-two and playing those final balls.
Ronaldo is different, apart from goalscoring, he also lead the team attack, operates from wing, cross the ball for his teammates, and finding space to attack.
I am not saying the way he operates in wing are comparable to Messi playing making role from deep, Messi is clearly better playmaker than Ronaldo the winger over their career. I am merely pointy out Ronaldo does more than just goalscoring, and he was once a good winger too in United days. He just did it less often in Madrid, as he move to wing forward role. But I see him doing it lot more in Juventus now, he always creates several chances in a game with his cross and wing play.
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I never said that Ronaldo isn't creative enough. It's not only athleticism and spatial awareness, his technique and footwork are superb, and he's always capable of creating something in the final third. But Messi is simply on another level in that regard compared to anyone else.
Some people say stats can be misleading, and they are 100% right.
But in this case, I'm absolutely certain that downplaying the importance of scoring so many goals in decisive CL rounds is a very big mistake.
Because it's about goals, it's about the strongest opposition in the continent and it's about clutch time in the most prestigious club competition in the world.
Competition where, btw, Ronaldo is also the top assister ever.
But in this case, I'm absolutely certain that downplaying the importance of scoring so many goals in decisive CL rounds is a very big mistake.
Because it's about goals, it's about the strongest opposition in the continent and it's about clutch time in the most prestigious club competition in the world.
Competition where, btw, Ronaldo is also the top assister ever.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...48ZoHWazhp-8fmg5BbiFCtPzKME/edit?usp=drivesdk
They used to be available on the OPTA website a few years ago.
Cool, thanks. Opta still seems to have historical WC stats, but they're only available against charge now.
About the numbers for 1974 not adding up: 20 shots in 7 full games would be 2,9 shots per 90 Minutes. But I'm surprised they have such a low count for his shots there. Perhaps they're counting fewer of the blocked shots than I would.
Anyway, enough off topic.
You are absolutely right, its about goals. That's why Gerd Muller is ranked up there with Pele and Maradonna, oh wait. Why is that i wonder, if its just about goals in big games?
Jajaja this!
If Ronaldo wins the CL with Juventus this season this will be this comparison:
It's RIP cards!No it wont, Half the video is people holding up little cards that say number 10
It's RIP cards!
The “its over” dunk wasn’t as nice but probably more appropriate here.
Indeed. Messi started playing when Ronaldinho was running the show, then as Ronnie started fading away Messi took over and became the star of the team ahead of players like Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o and Henry. Pep recognized Messi as the player he should build his team around, and once even said that without Messi he'd be coaching in the third division. Messi was at the centre of a team that is lauded by many as the best ever assembled, certainly one of the greatest teams of all time. Then Pep left and the players Messi supposedly couldn't score without (Xavi and Iniesta) started their decline. He adapted to this by drifting back, taking the ball and creating play, essentially becoming the best playmaker in the world and compensating for Xavi playing fewer minutes. Messi played with all sorts of different players and occupied different roles in the attack, always exceling at them. Winger, false nine, striker, attacking midfielder, playmaker. His cooperation with Suarez and Neymar was unique, and when the MSN era ended and Iniesta accelerated his decline, he took on Iniesta's role as well. Now he's a playmaker, attacking midfielder and striker for Barcelona, all at once. He begins attacks and ends them, I don't know what else he should/could do.
And it's interesting how people use the fact Messi played in Pep's Barcelona as something negative, basically taking credit away from him because that team was strong, while at the same time blaming him for that team not having won more in that time. One of the best managers in the world built one of the best teams in history around Messi, but this is conveniently ignored. It's true Messi had the benefit of playing alongside Xavi and Iniesta, but it's also true Messi always meant more for Barcelona than those two. He was the most responsible for Pep's team being the best in the world in his four years in charge. We didn't win four Champions Leagues on the trot during that spell, but Pep did create the best team, hands down the most dominant in recent history. And Messi was at the heart of it.
People like to talk about Ronaldo reinventing himself and he surely deserves credit for that, but at the same time those people like to ignore how Messi never shied away from any responsibility and how he continues to carry his team more and more. He compensated for so many shortcomings in the teams he played in and that only continues to get worse for him. Xavi gone? Ok, Messi will do that, no need to rush signing a replacement. Iniesta gone? Ok, he'll take over that as well. Neymar gone? Ok, Messi will carry the attack by himself, no need to replace an aging striker.
Messi consistently carries Barcelona's game and as every season passes he only takes on more responsibility, taking part in even more of our build up, still somehow managing to show up at the end of the move and score. If that isn't reinventing himself and basically sacrificing himself for the team, I don't know what to call it. Messi's role gets bigger as he ages, which is the opposite of what should be happening. I don't know if there is a player in world football that carries more of a burden than Leo, I don't see one. People just fail to see what Messi actually does for Barcelona. If you ask someone who knows the game and who plays with Leo, like Busquets, they will tell you Messi adapts his game every season. He is constantly changing his football for the benefit of the team and those around him.
You can tell the strength of the argument when it's based on individual awards won, particularly when it's the award that is given to the most prominent player of the team that won a specific trophy. If one boasts about Ronaldo being voted above Messi for the Ballon d'Or, how does one not also consider Luka Modrić to be currently the best player in the world? And how does one then not consider Griezmann to be superior to Messi?
In October of last year at least, Suarez was more creative than Messi, nevermind Iniesta: https://www.marca.com/en/football/barcelona/2018/10/12/5bbf8bc7ca474122598b45f1.html
It always gives me a chuckle when someone presents the argument that "player A will have had a better career than player B." Who cares? It's as if we value player quality by walking through their museums in their houses and counting the pieces of silverware. Clarence Seedorf won five Champions Leagues with three different clubs, which is much better than Ronaldinho's one World Cup and one Champions League. Come to think of it, why isn't Seedorf compared to Ronaldo? Since the Champions League is the only trophy that counts, they both have five of those, but Seedorf won them with three different clubs as opposed to Ronaldo's two. So effectively Seedorf also took on many challenges in his career, but managed to disperse his CL trophies better. He had impressive longevity, too, retiring at 37 or something.
But it's the same thing as the individual awards argument, it's based on a stat heavily influenced by circumstance - the quality of the players around you, the work done by your manager and board, the strength of your competition, the longevity of your most important team mates, luck, the influence your club has over matters on the pitch and off etc etc.
Ask Ronaldo about the power of Florentino Perez now that Luka Modrić is the Ballon d'Or winner.
Not trying to take any credit off Messi or your argument but when people talk of his "luck" to be in that Barcelona side it was because the core of that team managed to win great things without Messi (2 Euros and 1 WC).
You mean the same Spanish core that formed Real Madrid as well? Yeah
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