I don't there's nothing wrong with Messi having such treatment and allowing to pursue football as a professional level. However it's kind of ironic in the context that Messi fanboys like to boast about Messi being the more 'natural' talent while disregarding Ronaldo for being in top shape.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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I don't there's nothing wrong with Messi having such treatment and allowing to pursue football as a professional level. However it's kind of ironic in the context that Messi fanboys like to boast about Messi being the more 'natural' talent while disregarding Ronaldo for being in top shape.
Messi, although clearly a genius was a bit of a freak of nature physically when he broke through - his acceleration, ability to change direction and strength were unique and you could perhaps entertain the idea that he benefitted, beyond the ethical amount, from HGH, though it's obvious he had inherit elite balance and reflexes. Then again, I am of the opinion that doping is endemic and most athletes are on PEDs.
It's not fair to assume he got an advantage out of it without evidence for it and it's not like he's really ahead of other players from a physical standpoint either.
I've read an article the other day that analyzed Messi's body physics. What's special is the relation of the length of his legs to his upper body. Even for his height he has extremely short legs, much shorter than Iniesta exemplarily. Don't really know if it is a consequence of his disease, too, but it obviously gives him an extremely low center of gravity and allows his quick changes of directions and transitions. Also, Messi is drilled completely towards explosiveness. He covers the smallest distances of field players in Europe I think but therefore has an extremely high amount of sprints and fast runs. Don't want to dive too deep into the topic but this indicates that he has many fast twitching myocetes. In essence the point was that his explosiveness would probably not be possible if he was asked to cover more ground.
These things make him indeed a freak of nature and a very special speciman, even apart from the whole disease/drug story.
These things make him indeed a freak of nature and a very special speciman, even apart from the whole disease/drug story.
Pretty sure Ronaldo recorded 20+ assists in all comps in the 06/07 season.
Ronaldo has more goals, significantly more goals when it matters (knockout stages) and more assists than messi in the champions league. Despite messi playing in the greatest club side of all time (TM).
Thank you for the sensible voice.
That makes sense, I was only sort of thinking out loud with my blithe HGH pontifications. He was extremely explosive in his early years and I always thought it was unfair on Ronaldo to make out he was such a superior athlete compared to Messi, when really both were unique athletes perfectly tailored to their respective styles. Obviously now, Messi has lost a touch of pace and is a largely average athlete and Ronaldo has lost pace too but still has his exceptional aerial ability but both have adapted their games.
I was speaking of league only. Suarez achieved these numbers just in La Liga. I haven't looked up the cross-competition stats.
Why is it than those who favour Cristiano always bring in goals? I have explained so many times that goals are not everything for me. Messi can have brillant games without scoring one. It is always the same argument. I don't believe that you can reduce the impact of a player to his goal and assist stats and especially Messi contributes so, so much more.
Never really understood this "Ronaldo is a more natural athlete" neither. If anything, I would say this about Messi, in all honesty. Weight gain, fitness etc. is all about professionalism and work. But you cannot learn to have such a low center of gravity or muscle density.
By the way, I think people underestimate how explosive Messi still is. He simply uses it not as much as in his early career. Here's a little video of 2018:
edit:
Actually, I meant this video:
Look at his acceleration at 1:27. Think this is the most impressive scene. He simply seems to switch into sprint mode and suddenly, all other players seem much slower. Not quite the <25 year old Messi, but is probably still among the quickest players in the world in terms of acceleration
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@Zehner did you just ignore the assist stats i gave you?
And messi can't be considered a better natural athlete when you remember all the drugs he had to take to get bigger when he was a child. Not calling him a cheat, just reminding you of his natural physique.
And messi can't be considered a better natural athlete when you remember all the drugs he had to take to get bigger when he was a child. Not calling him a cheat, just reminding you of his natural physique.
No? I even wrote "goal and assist stats".
I just think reducing offensive contribution to the last two co tacts before the ball passes the line is lazy. Assist isn't assist and goal isn't goal. See the scene that led to the Benatia foul before the penalty. The most difficult thing in this "goal" was the brillant preassist of Kroos.
Cristiano is a striker. A genius one. But still a striker and target man of the currently best team in the world. It is only logical that he gets goal scoring chances and "assist opportunities". Messi's assist for Dembele I think against Chelsea in the second leg is exemplarily a totally different story.
You are saying that without Messi Barcelona wouldn't have won those two Champions? TrueI'm inclined to agree with this, but then remember United would probably have won 09 and 11...
How was Kroos' pass more important than Cristiano's header? Or Lucas' movement to get there?
Just because something looks more impressive doesn't mean it's more effective. As Ronaldo plays more and more like a striker, his assists are going down. As he's playing closer to goal he's getting less assists. How do explain that then?
Technically more demanding. You need game intelligence and timing for anticipating runs and predicting movements/patterns. Of course you need that for making these very runs, too, but the first needs superb technical abilities on top of that.
There are hundreds of explanations. One being that he is overall scoring less, especially in the league, which indicates he has less chances, too. In the CL, his numbers look the same. You could also argue that Benzema giving so many chances away is a reason. But in all honesty: It is simply natural variation, if you ask me. I don't think it is relevant at all and a pretty weak argument to make.
Again, being technically more demanding does not make it more important or more impressive. You need game intelligence to make the run Ronaldo did and identifying he had an advantage over Alex Sandro, you need the athleticism to get up there and then you need the awareness to leave it to Lucas Vasquez.
I don't see how you can say Kroos was more important for that goal happening. They both deserve credit for it.
Not true. He's scoring just as much as the past few years. And it's not irrelevant at all, you say the only reason he gets so many assists is because he plays far up the pitch, but he got more of those when he didn't play so far up the pitch.
Technically more demanding does not make it more important or more impressive? That's delusional. It literally means that there are fewer players who can play such a ball and thus it is indeed more important if one pulls it off. You will find more players who can make this run and head the ball in front of the goal than play such a pass in the first place. Again, you need this technical ability on top of the game intelligence and the awareness. What Cristiano does is usually not impressive for the skill level it requires but the consistency with which he does it.
So yes, I think the preassist of Kroos was much more impressive than Cristiano's run and header.
This debate is pointless. There are no divergences which cannot be explained with standard deviation in normal distributions. In his first season at Madrid, Cristiano had 7 assists in 28 games. Now he has 5 in 24. You also see that his assists roughly correlate with his goals which means that in seasons where he scores more he also assists more which actually speaks for my claim. Besides that, in the CL he is you see no difference at all. 0 in 5, 4 in 12, 3 in 10, 1 in 12, 4 in 11, 3 in 12, 4 in 12, 5 in 13, 3 in 10. If anything, he assists more in the CL since becoming a striker - which is, however, insignificant since it can be explained with standard deviation.
Unfortunately, I cannot find any source which lists the preassists of players. Now this would be interesting because this is where Messi really shines IMO.
Of course not... what the feck? It's stupid to say otherwise. Doing 50 stepovers is more technically demanding than a simple pass but the pass might be more important to a goal. As in that case what Ronaldo did was obviously more important than what Kroos did. I can't actually believe you're arguing otherwise.
Not that it even matters in the slighest but arguing that more players could have done what Kroos did than what Ronaldo did is also bullshit.
No, your claim is bullshit is what it is. According to you Ronaldo only gets assists because he's playing close to goal when in fact he wasn't playing close to goal when he got more assists. Players in dominant teams that do play close to goal do not get as many assists as him when he isn't playing as close to goal. Something's wrong here.
You can throw as many excuses as you want but what you're claiming is simply not true.
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Sorry man, but you are totally biased. We are not talking about pointless step overs, we are talking about effective through balls. Of course the difficulty of a play is important. Not because of the aesthetics but because the difficult things are the ones that set good players apart from greats. Football isn't that simple. Easy passing and runs only brings you so far. Great passes and dribbles are required to overcome great defending. If there is a goal and it was only possible because of two plays of whatever kind, the more difficult one is more important, simple as that.
Individual brillance is what decides matches. This through ball of Kroos was one such play. You claim that your evaluation of players isn't based on goals, yet you belittle the importance of plays that lead to them.
I say he gets more assists because he plays close to the goal - how on earth can you not understand the logic behind it? When you are the main target man of your attacks, of course you get to score more - both goals and assists. It is a depiction of your obsession that you cannot even admit that.
And no, it is not bullshit, every guy with a basic understanding of statistics will confirm it. You refuse to look deeper than the surface again because you are not willing to question your beliefs. It is obvious that assists correlate with goals and it is also obvious that his assists per game remained the same int he CL regardless of his position. Besides that, the individual samples are not even comparable since these are no laboratory conditions. There are hundreds of factors that could play a role. This is not even about opinion anymore, what you are claiming is objectively wrong. These numbers indicate nothing.
Sorry, but I'm getting tired of these discussions. You are constantly in irrational denial and at some point start becoming vocal and try to ridicule your opposite.
While you're clearly not biased at all by caring as much as you clearly do and saying things not even the most deluded of Barcelona fans would say. You're right, best to leave it at that. Most of the things you claim I said in that post are things I never said or even implied.
And if you actually believe what Kroos did was a piece of brilliance that was more important to that chance than what Ronaldo did then there's no point arguing anyway.
Ronaldo is brilliant but his involvement in the game is a lot less than Messi.
Both incredible players but Messi is something else .Never seen a player do what he does and for over 10 years now .
I'd love either at united even at this stage of their careers .
Both incredible players but Messi is something else .Never seen a player do what he does and for over 10 years now .
I'd love either at united even at this stage of their careers .
I do care, am involved and obviously biased, too, just like every human being. The difference is, I prefer Messi because of how I understand football. I always rated creators higher than goal scorers and thus it is only consequent to think of him as the best player of his generation. You like Ronaldo and search for arguments to prove this point when it should actually be the other way round. That is why your lines of argument seem so constructed and uncontinuous.
Oh yeah, that again. Strange that all people do this to you.
I do. And if Ronaldo had made this pass and Kroos would be the one heading it to Vazquez, you would be of the same opinion.
What goal are you two maniacs arguing about?
No, I wouldn't. Hence just like I've told you 10 times before a few years ago Messi was the better player for me and my criteria for it never changed. My arguments have never changed. If Messi goes on to dominate the World Cup while Ronaldo has a bad one then Messi will arguably be better again, simple.
As of now Ronaldo's better career wise because he's outperformed Messi in the Champions League and internationally which are by far the two biggest stages in football.
My problem is that your arguments make no sense and your way of understanding football makes no sense either which is why I disagree with 90% of what you write here. I don't see how someone saying they rate creators higher than goalscorers makes any sense at all for example. That's not how football works. A creator can be better than a goalscorer and a goalscorer can be better than a creator. Creators also score goals and goalscorers also create and there are plenty of other variables to their game besides that so no, I'll simply never understand how you can make statements like that and that's what I disagree with. Not with you thinking Messi is better, it's with you discrediting what Ronaldo's been doing with points that do not make sense.
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Madrid's penalty vs Juve
05:17
Was Kroos more important than Ronaldo for creating than chance, was Ronaldo more important or were they as important as eachother?
Hate to break it to you but only you and the Barca/Messi fanboys are in denial and totally biased. Everyone else in the world knows Ronaldo is and has been the best player in the world for a number of years now.
>Cristiano was the best player in the world
> Messi came to the scene and overtook him
> Ronaldo then overtook him, has reclaimed that title and still holds it
...Ronaldo is the best goal scorer of all time and the best big game player in the world today...Messi is the most talented player of all time...more skill/talent ≠ better/best player.
Again, if you fail to realize that which is common knowledge across the world, YOU are the one in denial with bias
Just let that guy be, he’s floating in his own boat.
People with common sense know fully that was all Ronaldo’s doing. What other footballer has such world class athleticism to high point the ball like that over a defender while he’s draped all over by him? No one. Thus, no other team looks to play such a ball like that to their players because they know they’re simply incapable of making something out of it. Ronaldo on the other hand? The whole world knows. Why don’t Barca players play such balls to Messi? Pretty obvious lol.
And the play in the video before that, same thing. Ronaldo high points the ball over the defender while draped on a very tight angle; funny thing - some user had the audacity to compare that to Messi’s miss against Roma when he was all alone in goal and choked it saying that header was a “sitter” like Messi’s was
I wonder if you feel the irony seeping through the screen as you type this. You ALWAYS rate the creators more highly, yet when Ronaldo provides an assist on the plate, you prefer to credit the one who pre-assisted.
Is it really true that more players could have made the jump and head than play the pass?
I feel like the people who back Ronaldo have reinvented what is important in football. Being good in the air and athletic is great but it is NOT more important than ball control and vision.
Ronaldo is a monster of a player but the fact is he can only dream of doing what Messi does in the middle third of the pitch, he will never have same influence on the game in this area as Messi does. If you're arguing against this you are delusional and watch football on a piece of paper.
There are things Ronaldo can do that Messi can only dream of too. The difference being that the main output of the things Ronaldo does is goals and Messi matches him in this department (surpasses him in terms of an average) by taking an alternate approach.
So it's common sense that Messi's attributes are more valuable because they help him in both the middle and final third of the pitch whilst Ronaldo's only helps him in the final third. If Ronaldo was so much better than Messi in the final third then yes, Messi's superiority in the middle third would not matter but that's not the case. The two of them are on par and Messi has had a career high in this area (73 goals in a season and 91 in a calendar year) that Ronaldo has never come close to matching but for the sake of this argument we'll say they are equal in this area.
It's baffling that people still pick Ronaldo over Messi. I can't wrap my head around it. At a lower level it would be similar to people picking Harry Kane over Hazard even if Hazard started matching Kane's output. It doesn't make sense.
Ronaldo is a monster of a player but the fact is he can only dream of doing what Messi does in the middle third of the pitch, he will never have same influence on the game in this area as Messi does. If you're arguing against this you are delusional and watch football on a piece of paper.
There are things Ronaldo can do that Messi can only dream of too. The difference being that the main output of the things Ronaldo does is goals and Messi matches him in this department (surpasses him in terms of an average) by taking an alternate approach.
So it's common sense that Messi's attributes are more valuable because they help him in both the middle and final third of the pitch whilst Ronaldo's only helps him in the final third. If Ronaldo was so much better than Messi in the final third then yes, Messi's superiority in the middle third would not matter but that's not the case. The two of them are on par and Messi has had a career high in this area (73 goals in a season and 91 in a calendar year) that Ronaldo has never come close to matching but for the sake of this argument we'll say they are equal in this area.
It's baffling that people still pick Ronaldo over Messi. I can't wrap my head around it. At a lower level it would be similar to people picking Harry Kane over Hazard even if Hazard started matching Kane's output. It doesn't make sense.
This heat map is making the rounds and is legit this time:
Just let that guy be, he’s floating in his own boat.
People with common sense know fully that was all Ronaldo’s doing. What other footballer has such world class athleticism to high point the ball like that over a defender while he’s draped all over by him? No one. Thus, no other team looks to play such a ball like that to their players because they know they’re simply incapable of making something out of it. Ronaldo on the other hand? The whole world knows. Why don’t Barca players play such balls to Messi? Pretty obvious lol.
And the play in the video before that, same thing. Ronaldo high points the ball over the defender while draped on a very tight angle; funny thing - some user had the audacity to compare that to Messi’s miss against Roma when he was all alone in goal and choked it saying that header was a “sitter” like Messi’s was
Ronaldo was quite poor in the Juve game in fairness, but so was Messi in the second leg against Roma.
Ramos deserves a ton of credit as well, without him Madrid fall short in the 2014 and 2016 finals as Ronaldo was nowhere to be seen.
I’m guessing it’s from the sport bible by the looks of the photo template and colours. If so, not surprised since they’re the biggest Messi asslickers and Ronaldo haters.
> That’s made up / not a factual map and doesn’t show what the heat map even represents or anything
> Great for people unacceting of Ronaldo’s greatness to stroke as they live in denial
> After a quick FB check, it is indeed from SB and here’s the top comment: “Compare heat maps in their next champions league games...”
That wasn’t what I was responding to nor does it have any relevance to my reply
I’m guessing it’s from the sport bible by the looks of the photo template and colours. If so, not surprised since they’re the biggest Messi asslickers and Ronaldo haters.
> That’s made up / not a factual map and doesn’t show what the heat map even represents or anything
> Great for people unacceting of Ronaldo’s greatness to stroke as they live in denial
> After a quick FB check, it is indeed from SB and here’s the top comment: “Compare heat maps in their next champions league games...”
They love Messi but they love Ronaldo too. He’s having a great CL campaign
I have the same feeling regarding the Messi brigade. Before the era of Ronaldo v Messi, players were rated for their impact on the biggest competitions.
Maradona was seen as one of the GOAT because of WC 86, somehow Messi fans now claim that every single football game is worth the same and every single goal is as important as another, regardless if it's the 8th goal in an 8-0 in the league or the winning goal in a CL SF.
This heat map is making the rounds and is legit this time:
I doubt anyones heat map has ever looked like either of those two. Messis says he spent the majority of the game in about ten different areas of the pitch, which may happen, but it wouldn't show thrm all as red like that. No team plays in the box that much either, it would require thr other team camping on their own goal line from minute one. Its zehners wet dream though.
In a nutshell. Could swap hazard for de Bruyne and it would still hold up.
There is one thing I'll say for Ronaldo - his determination gets him goals when you need them in big games more often than Messi. We've seen Messi win loads of games with pure brilliance but I don't recall many iconic moments where he pulled through for his team with sheer dogged grit and determination. If he is struggling with the rest of the team, you don't see him stepping up that often.
About as important as each other imo. I doubt Ronaldo would have made that pass and I doubt Kroos would have made that header if it was the other way round.
So with that in mind, I think it's clear to see that Messi is better than Ronaldo.
I have the same feeling regarding the Messi brigade. Before the era of Ronaldo v Messi, players were rated for their impact on the biggest competitions.
Maradona was seen as one of the GOAT because of WC 86, somehow Messi fans now claim that every single football game is worth the same and every single goal is as important as another, regardless if it's the 8th goal in an 8-0 in the league or the winning goal in a CL SF.
Thing is, you've always said Ronaldo was better than Messi yet it's only the last few years that Ronaldo has stepped up in the CL knockout stages. Before that he was seen as someone who didn't have a great impact in the big games and Messi was the one who had. Not only have you reinvented what is important about football, you've reframed what criterion you should judge these two on.
You literally said the red part your self in the same post. Yet you arrive at the conclusion of the blue part?
You think Messi is more like than Kroos to make that header?
I could already see that Ronaldo was better when everyone was clouded by how much Xaviesta was making Messi look good. I repeatedly pointed out that Messi couldn't do as much without them, and the last few years have proven me right beyond any doubt.
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