The Ballon D'Or has always been a silly prize, no matter who was winning it.
Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance
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Crazy stat
Messi spent loads of time out injured between 2005/2006 and 2007/2008Ronaldo played more games as a kid? Didn't Messi make his debut at 16?
I get what you’re saying here, but in Ronaldo’s case he’s setting and breaking records that may never be matched, in the most participated sport in history.
...and like I’ve previously said, doesn’t that show how much Ronaldo has picked it up and Messi has stalled that even after such a horrendous start to the year he still has more goals than Messi? And again, just hysterical Barca/Messi fanbois are trying to argue success in the league vs mid table clubs should be held to a higher standard than Ronaldo scoring round after round whilst carrying Madrid at a historic pace/level never before seen in the CL vs the top European clubs in the world. This really is the twilight zone considering this is what the fanbois are grasping on to as an argument - at least in their eyes
Ronaldo has scored more goals now yes, but as soon as the pressure was off the title race is when he started. Messi may have slowed down but the league was already wrapped up with such a points gap. Ronaldo scored a lot of league goals when it was not important anymore. It doesn't matter if they finish 4th or 2nd because they wouldn't achieve their objective of winning the league.
Everyone talks about Ronaldo being great under pressure so why did he bottle it in the league before Christmas?
Success in the league is better in my opinion. You may play a lot of average teams but if the team is not at their best for the most part then they don't win the league.
Real Madrid would get out of the group stage anyway, then they only have to play 7 games to win it.
They have beat PSG and Juventus to get to the Semi, them two teams are close to the same level as Barcelona and Athletico, who Real play in the league.
Then say they beat Bayern and Roma to win it. Roma are close to Sevilla level. So the only team different from in La Liga that they have to beat is Bayern.
Also Real Madrid and Ronaldo played all these mid table and average teams, not just Barcelona and Messi. So if it was so easy why did Ron and Real Madrid not beat them all and fall far behind in the league?
Ronaldo was off form for 3-4 months this season, Messi has been off form for a couple of games. Yet Ron gets defended but Messi gets criticised. Ridiculous. It is obvious who has been the better player this season, because off form for so long is not even comparable to off form in a one off game against Roma.
Where was Ronaldo when Barca pummelled them 3-0 with Messi being Man of the Match? If Ron is such a big game player and Messi isn't why did one show up in that game and not the other? Just like Messi was unable to win the game vs Roma.
I call the Ballon D'Or nonsense ever since 2006 or 2007. Probably would have even earlier but I wasn't watching that much international live games until then. And yes, I criticized Messi's Ballon D'Ors, too, especially in the years of WCs and ECs. I cannot even remember who won it in which years and wasn't even sure how many trophies Messi and Cristiano had until I read this thread. Besides that, I wasn't really fond of Messi in his first 4-5 years because I didn't want to accept that he was better than my favourite players back in their best, which were Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Zidane. But you learn to differentiate when you get older.
And no, just because something is a factor doesn't make it the most important one. But certain evaluations imply a certain weight of factors. And people adapt these priorities to their current preferences/agendas and then pretend to be neutral although they weigh these factors totally different in other occasions. Just like you in case of Cristiano.
No, their preferences have remained the same and so have mine which is why for me a few years ago Messi was the better player, now he's not. And like I've said here plenty of times if he'd performed very well in the Champions League and World Cup I probably change my mind again.
Same here. I don’t get how the Messi fanboys can be this stubborn that they’re unwilling to admit what’s in plain sight in front of everyone else that the rest of the world sees but them.
Cristiano was the best in the world. Then Messi came to the scene and overtook him. And these past number of years, Ronaldo has reclaimed that title. It’s not set in stone as things are still open to change as Ronaldo has shown and is showing. Messi by all means can up it to do the same but at this present moment, he hasn’t - more so, CR7 has just been that great.
These are very telling of where both stand in the current day...
Stop calling people fanboys. I am not a fan boy, I am a football fan who simply seems to have a different understanding of the game compared to you. I prefer Messi because of the things he does on the pitch which are hard to quantify like dribbling, playmaking etc. Not the other way round. In the same way, I never really rated goal scorers because I think that they often get much more attention than they deserve simply because they had the last contact before the ball passed the line while other players contributed much more to the goal. So don't discredit me because of my opinion. I could as well say that you are simply obsessed with Cristiano because you have an unhealthy man crush on him.
I don't care about your goal statistics or the trophies you like to count because we are talking about individuals not teams. Neither was Cristiano a bottler because his side before Ancelotti wasn't good enough to win the CL nor did Messi turn into one in recent years. It is simply the quality of their teams that differs, both of them are more or less playing on their respective levels for over a decade right now.
I won't change my opinion just because Ronaldo keeps doing what he has been doing for the past six or seven years which is primarily scoring goals without contributing much besides that. If that could change my mind, it would have happened long ago. For him to surpass Messi he had to adjust his playing style, become the player he was before 2011 again and additionally improve a little bit, since even then he was below the Argentinian. Won't happen, obviously.
I would even call Messi the better player if he had won only one or even zero Champions Leagues. Simply because he is and team success has nothing to do with his abilities.
Do you actually believe this or are you talking about a different Cristiano Ronaldo?
What if he scores an hattrick every game and Portugal win the World Cup? Your opinion still remains the same? He's only good at scoring goals then, when those goals come doesn't matter afterall.
It's such a ridiculous argument that completely fails to understand both how many different functions Ronaldo has on the pitch and how the different competitions in this sport work.
Yes. And believe me, I watched many games of him. Used to watch more or less every match back in the day and actually rooted for Madrid because I was a big fan of Özil. He had already adapted his playing style under Mourinho to his goal obsession and it only got more extreme in the following years.
If you think Cristiano Ronaldo doesn't contribute much outside of goalscoring for the past seven years then I have absolutely no idea what to tell you other than that's the dumbest thing anyone has said in the 231 pages of this thread. What the actual feck..
You must have been watching the games through Messi-sized bias goggles.
Ah come on, spare us with this empty rhetoric. It is not the first time this has been said in this thread and it won't be the last time. You very well know that there is truth in it. Cristiano doesn't contribute much more than your average goal scoring striker does which makes sense since he is playing as one for quite some time now. And before that he was a striker hidden on the left flank who played nothing like a winger anymore. Ronaldo is usually the end point of an attack and is influential in the last one or two contacts and that's about it. You can also see it in the dribblings per game and key pass stats.
But you have the chance to enlighten me. How does he contribute much more than someone like, say, Lewandowski or Suarez?
Now or for the past 7 fecking years? You genuinely can't be serious.
By creating more chances than them. By assisting more than them. By dribbling more than them. By moving off the ball better than them. By positioning himself better than them. By crossing better than them. By being faster than them. By being taller and being able to jump a lot higher than them. By being able to go both left and right with ease. By being able to adapt and remain threatening in any system against any other defnesive system. By being a lot better in the big games. By being one of the biggest aerial threats in football history. By being one of the biggest counter attacking threats in football history. By being better than them in pretty much every single facet of attacking play, that's why he's better.
This is so fecking stupid, I give up. You're arguing things not even the most deluded of Barcelona fans would argue while claiming to be perfectly unbiased. It's just crap.
Half of the things you mentioned are related to goal scoring. Moving off the ball, positioning, being taller and able to jump a lot higher than them - all things which mainly happen in the last third of the pitch, like I said. Dribbling? In the last six years, Cristiano has one La Liga season in which he has more than two dribbling attempts on average. He used to dribble more than the average striker but tremendously less than world class wingers. Ribery, Robben, Neymar, Messi etc. averaged 3-6 dribbles per game. And assisting? If you are playing in such an offense as the farthest man of course you get assists. Luis Suarez had 19 (!) assists in the season he scored 40 league goals. Cristiano's best result was 16 assists, by the way.
This isn't disrespecting Cristiano. I am simply calling him what he is, which is a striker. Probably the best in history, yes, but a pure striker who rarely contributes outside of the last third of the pitch.
Something fishing going on if that happens lad lol.
Why do you keep mentioning fanboys? Can that not be used to describe you?
There isn't that much between so people will favour one or the other. Why is that so hard for you to take if others prefer Messi?
Alright, last answer to you @Zehner since it's always the same thing over and over again and it never goes anywhere. It's literally impossible to argue against, so frustrating.
Then a discussion about one single point diverges into a discussion of about 20 different things and if this continured 3 comments from now I wouldn't even remember what the first comment was. You ask me to say things Ronaldo contributes more than Suarez and Lewa outside of goals, I did it and then you without even disagreeing or attempting to defend your original point at all, proceeded to find an excuse and spin every single thing I said.
No, they absolutely aren't.
Ronaldo's movement off the ball does not only create chances for himself. Him being great in the air makes defenses collapse, it makes him help on defensive set pieces, it gives space to other attackers in the box, it means that if the defense is getting pressured they can hoof the ball to him and he'll hold it up (wouldn't it have been useful for Barcelona to have someone like that in the Roma game?), him being fast and great on the counter means defenses can't play a high line and can't afford to make mistakes on the ball. Then his assists might not be passes through the legs of 4 defenders but it's these things combined with his athleticism that make him be on the right place to make the passes for teammates to score. As you saw through the way they got the penalty against Juve. Him being a goalscoring threat from so many different ways has more impact on the game than just his goals too.
And for the past 6 years you thing he's played as the furthest man on his team? Because that's just a blatant lie. He has more assists than Suarez and more assists than Lewandowski while playing deeper than both... must be magic. Or there must be some bullshit excuse to take away from this fact. Quite incredible how you managed to turn that around. Most of the chances he created went to Benzema for Madrid and for Postiga and Hugo Almeida in the national team, if he had a prolific striker next to him he'd have more assists than he has now too.
Why does where he play even matter by the way? This whole discussion is about your point: 'Ronaldo for the past 7 years doesn't contribute much outside of goals'. I say he assists which is a contribution and then you start arguing that he only does it because of where he plays? It's just so frustratingly stupid. So does he contribute or not? You just start changing the whole point, it's impossible.
Not disrespecting? What the hell is it then? It's beyond disrespecting, not even the most deluded of Barcelona fans would write that Ronaldo doesn't contribute much outside of goals for the past 7 years. It's either disrespectful or just blatant lying. You might want to learn what a striker is too, Ronaldo's been a pure striker for 7 years... do you even know what a striker is?
How do you explain the fact that this season aside he's never even been the most forward player on his team? That's pretty weird for a striker.
First comment: 'Outside of goals Ronaldo doesn't contribute much'
Second comment: 'rarely contributes outside of the last third of the pitch.'
Nice subtle change completely changing the point of the whole discussion. One thing is not doing much outside of goals, another completely different thing is not doing much outside of the final third.
My comment: 'Ronaldo dribbles more than Suarez and Lewandowski'
Your reply: 'Dribbling? In the last six years, Cristiano has one La Liga season in which he has more than two dribbling attempts on average. He used to dribble more than the average striker but tremendously less than world class wingers. Ribery, Robben, Neymar, Messi etc. averaged 3-6 dribbles per game.'
First of all, them averaging about 1 or 2 more dribbling attempts per game and you thinking that's a big difference is pretty funny. And secondly, thanks for arguing against something I never argued. How about arguing what I said? You've asked me to name things Ronaldo did more than Suarez and Lewandowski, I did it and then you give that as a reply without even mentioning either of them? What?
Second comment: 'rarely contributes outside of the last third of the pitch.'
Nice subtle change completely changing the point of the whole discussion. One thing is not doing much outside of goals, another completely different thing is not doing much outside of the final third.
My comment: 'Ronaldo dribbles more than Suarez and Lewandowski'
Your reply: 'Dribbling? In the last six years, Cristiano has one La Liga season in which he has more than two dribbling attempts on average. He used to dribble more than the average striker but tremendously less than world class wingers. Ribery, Robben, Neymar, Messi etc. averaged 3-6 dribbles per game.'
First of all, them averaging about 1 or 2 more dribbling attempts per game and you thinking that's a big difference is pretty funny. And secondly, thanks for arguing against something I never argued. How about arguing what I said? You've asked me to name things Ronaldo did more than Suarez and Lewandowski, I did it and then you give that as a reply without even mentioning either of them? What?
Then a discussion about one single point diverges into a discussion of about 20 different things and if this continured 3 comments from now I wouldn't even remember what the first comment was. You ask me to say things Ronaldo contributes more than Suarez and Lewa outside of goals, I did it and then you without even disagreeing or attempting to defend your original point at all, proceeded to find an excuse and spin every single thing I said.
No, they absolutely aren't.
Ronaldo's movement off the ball does not only create chances for himself. Him being great in the air makes defenses collapse, it makes him help on defensive set pieces, it gives space to other attackers in the box, it means that if the defense is getting pressured they can hoof the ball to him and he'll hold it up (wouldn't it have been useful for Barcelona to have someone like that in the Roma game?), him being fast and great on the counter means defenses can't play a high line and can't afford to make mistakes on the ball. Then his assists might not be passes through the legs of 4 defenders but it's these things combined with his athleticism that make him be on the right place to make the passes for teammates to score. As you saw through the way they got the penalty against Juve. Him being a goalscoring threat from so many different ways has more impact on the game than just his goals too.
And for the past 6 years you thing he's played as the furthest man on his team? Because that's just a blatant lie. He has more assists than Suarez and more assists than Lewandowski while playing deeper than both... must be magic. Or there must be some bullshit excuse to take away from this fact. Quite incredible how you managed to turn that around. Most of the chances he created went to Benzema for Madrid and for Postiga and Hugo Almeida in the national team, if he had a prolific striker next to him he'd have more assists than he has now too.
Why does where he play even matter by the way? This whole discussion is about your point: 'Ronaldo for the past 7 years doesn't contribute much outside of goals'. I say he assists which is a contribution and then you start arguing that he only does it because of where he plays? It's just so frustratingly stupid. So does he contribute or not? You just start changing the whole point, it's impossible.
Not disrespecting? What the hell is it then? It's beyond disrespecting, not even the most deluded of Barcelona fans would write that Ronaldo doesn't contribute much outside of goals for the past 7 years. It's either disrespectful or just blatant lying. You might want to learn what a striker is too, Ronaldo's been a pure striker for 7 years... do you even know what a striker is?
How do you explain the fact that this season aside he's never even been the most forward player on his team? That's pretty weird for a striker.
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The Messi v Ronaldo debate comes down to one thing and that is the fact that Messi is a master at two key facets of the game and Ronaldo is a master at one. I’d break football down into the five following areas: keeping, defending, controlling, creating and goal scoring. Using footballers from this day and age as a benchmark we end up with something like this:
Keeping:
De Gea, Neuer, Oblak and Buffon would probably make most lists with no argument and it would be hard to spilt between the four with all players having an edge in different areas. And so the argument exist within itself in this category.
Defending:
Similar to keeping, there would be three or four players that everybody would agree should be on the list with favourites being vouched for based on what each individual values in their defensive players. Like keeping, the argument exists within itself.
Controlling:
In this department it would be hard to look past Modric, Kross, Busquets, Verrati, Thiago etc. as being the best controllers currently plying their trade. However unlike the first two categories, when a player in this area adds something different to his game like say 20 goals a season the parameters upon which the other guys are measured has changed. The guy who scores 20 whilst still being able to control a game of football would be seen as superior to the others because whilst you may prefer the way Thiago plays in that area because he has better passing stats, interceptions etc., it would be hard to argue against the 20 goal a season controller despite him being be marginally worst in controlling the game. Essentially, when two aspects of a player’s performance are so closely matched within one facet of the game, their other contributions are what help separate them. So for example in this part of the pitch some may prefer Thiago over Modric and some the other way around. Both groups can go around shoving stats down the others’ throat, compare trophies and what not to vouch for their man but the minute one of the two players starts scoring 20 a season the argument is dead as the added value they offer offsets whatever miniscule difference that exists between the two.
Playmaking:
In this department, Messi is the best. Not even the most die hard Ronaldo fan could argue this. The man is a genius with the ball at his feet and can find the smallest of openings through his passing and dribbling as well as any player in history. Cut his goals in four and he’d still be the best in this area. The other guys who play their trade in this area like Hazard, Isco, Silva, James etc. are not a patch on Messi and I’m pretty sure no one would argue otherwise. Ronaldo is not even in this argument as it’s not something that is a key part of his game and he wouldn’t register on any top 10 list. In this category Messi is the best and by some distance.
Goal scoring:
Ronaldo takes it in this area. The man is ridiculous, he attacks the ball better than anyone in history and has a habit of turning up for his team when in matters with crucial goals. Only Messi has been able to match his ridiculous consistency over the years and is close second on this list. By my assessment Ronaldo is better here but there are many who would make the argument for Messi and you can see why. The difference between the two is marginal. Messi has a better goal scoring ratio through his career (you can make any adjustments you want but the fact remains and denying this is making excuses for Ronaldo) and outscored Ronaldo’s best season of 61 goals by a 20% margin. So it would be feasible for people to go one way or another. The gap isn’t clear enough for there to be a clear winner. And for that reason, we go to other game contributions which is where Messi is the clear winner due to his substantially superior playmaking ability.
So we can compare stats all days and talk about this and that but the fact is Messi has mastered two areas of the game and could conceivably be considered the best in both areas, Ronaldo can only stake his claim for one area.
Also, history will probably remember Messi as the better player. The stats when compared will look similar but the highlight reels will be wildly different and for that reason I think history will more fondly remember Messi. Just watch a goals only compilation and you’ll see a vast difference between the quality of goals scored.
Keeping:
De Gea, Neuer, Oblak and Buffon would probably make most lists with no argument and it would be hard to spilt between the four with all players having an edge in different areas. And so the argument exist within itself in this category.
Defending:
Similar to keeping, there would be three or four players that everybody would agree should be on the list with favourites being vouched for based on what each individual values in their defensive players. Like keeping, the argument exists within itself.
Controlling:
In this department it would be hard to look past Modric, Kross, Busquets, Verrati, Thiago etc. as being the best controllers currently plying their trade. However unlike the first two categories, when a player in this area adds something different to his game like say 20 goals a season the parameters upon which the other guys are measured has changed. The guy who scores 20 whilst still being able to control a game of football would be seen as superior to the others because whilst you may prefer the way Thiago plays in that area because he has better passing stats, interceptions etc., it would be hard to argue against the 20 goal a season controller despite him being be marginally worst in controlling the game. Essentially, when two aspects of a player’s performance are so closely matched within one facet of the game, their other contributions are what help separate them. So for example in this part of the pitch some may prefer Thiago over Modric and some the other way around. Both groups can go around shoving stats down the others’ throat, compare trophies and what not to vouch for their man but the minute one of the two players starts scoring 20 a season the argument is dead as the added value they offer offsets whatever miniscule difference that exists between the two.
Playmaking:
In this department, Messi is the best. Not even the most die hard Ronaldo fan could argue this. The man is a genius with the ball at his feet and can find the smallest of openings through his passing and dribbling as well as any player in history. Cut his goals in four and he’d still be the best in this area. The other guys who play their trade in this area like Hazard, Isco, Silva, James etc. are not a patch on Messi and I’m pretty sure no one would argue otherwise. Ronaldo is not even in this argument as it’s not something that is a key part of his game and he wouldn’t register on any top 10 list. In this category Messi is the best and by some distance.
Goal scoring:
Ronaldo takes it in this area. The man is ridiculous, he attacks the ball better than anyone in history and has a habit of turning up for his team when in matters with crucial goals. Only Messi has been able to match his ridiculous consistency over the years and is close second on this list. By my assessment Ronaldo is better here but there are many who would make the argument for Messi and you can see why. The difference between the two is marginal. Messi has a better goal scoring ratio through his career (you can make any adjustments you want but the fact remains and denying this is making excuses for Ronaldo) and outscored Ronaldo’s best season of 61 goals by a 20% margin. So it would be feasible for people to go one way or another. The gap isn’t clear enough for there to be a clear winner. And for that reason, we go to other game contributions which is where Messi is the clear winner due to his substantially superior playmaking ability.
So we can compare stats all days and talk about this and that but the fact is Messi has mastered two areas of the game and could conceivably be considered the best in both areas, Ronaldo can only stake his claim for one area.
Also, history will probably remember Messi as the better player. The stats when compared will look similar but the highlight reels will be wildly different and for that reason I think history will more fondly remember Messi. Just watch a goals only compilation and you’ll see a vast difference between the quality of goals scored.
Dribbles, the ultimate refuge of some of the Messi supporters.
I hope they also feel Denilson was better than Batistuta, Sheva, RVN , etc., because you know, the latter 3 may have scored a few hundreds of goals, but Denilson with those dribbles though.
I hope they also feel Denilson was better than Batistuta, Sheva, RVN , etc.
, because you know, the latter 3 may have scored a few hundreds of goals, but Denilson with those dribbles though.
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In summary,
Messi - better dribbler, better playmaker, more talent, better player in league
Ronaldo - better header, better big game player, more determined, better player in CL
I think no one can disagree with the above.
For goalscoring, both are by far the best in the world. There's no point arguing who is better imho. Ronaldo scores more goals (league+CL) since his move to Real, and is more consistent to reach 50+ goals every season. Messi scores more goals at younger age, and has a absolute peak season/year in goalscoring that no one could match. Over their career they share similar insane stats (one with slightly more goals, the other with slightly better goal per game ratio, or the other way round)
For achievement/success/consistency/records, they are more or less equal. Individually, both had won Ballon D'or 5 times within the same period. Some may think Messi edges it with more team trophies won, he is ultimate champion in league titles. But some may think Ronaldo edges it with more international success and success in different league etc. Ronaldo actually does also hold more records than Messi (around 150 vs 110). But Messi is 2 years younger.
In terms of legacy, I think Ronaldo edges it a little with his recent success for Portugal (on paper) and with more big moments in CL (in everyones mind).
Opinion-wise, more people would prefer Messi, as he is more enjoyable to watch with the eyes.
In the end, the current poll more or less reflect the reality: Messi ~57% vs Ronaldo ~43%
Although by end of season, it could be closer to 50 vs 50
Footnote:
In terms of GOAT discussion, popular opinion being Messi in top 3 vs Ronaldo in top 5. Personally I would rank Pele/Maradona in top 1-2, whereas Messi/Ronaldo in top 3-4 for now. Although I really think Ronaldo does have a chance end up being greater player than Messi (whilst Messi still the better player), and my guess is people in future may rank 1.Pele 2.Ronaldo 3.Messi 4.Maradona in GOAT ranking. No one can beat Pele 3 WC and "1000" goals on paper, so he is definitely no.1. For Maradona, people will remember his insane footballing, his legacy in 86 WC + his 2 winning season for a "small" club in Serie A, will remain greatest peak of footballer forever. But career-wise, I think he is far behind Pele/Ronaldo/Messi. For Ronaldo, history will remember all his insane no. of goals, insane records, insane consistency, insane CL performances and success, no. of Ballon D'or wins, Portugal impossible success, success at every level and many big moments on biggest stage. For Messi, history will remember his insane no. of goals, his insane footballing and style of play, his insane performances on the pitch, no. of Ballon D'or wins, insane consistency, insane goalscoring years in 2012, and insane success at club level.
Messi - better dribbler, better playmaker, more talent, better player in league
Ronaldo - better header, better big game player, more determined, better player in CL
I think no one can disagree with the above.
For goalscoring, both are by far the best in the world. There's no point arguing who is better imho. Ronaldo scores more goals (league+CL) since his move to Real, and is more consistent to reach 50+ goals every season. Messi scores more goals at younger age, and has a absolute peak season/year in goalscoring that no one could match. Over their career they share similar insane stats (one with slightly more goals, the other with slightly better goal per game ratio, or the other way round)
For achievement/success/consistency/records, they are more or less equal. Individually, both had won Ballon D'or 5 times within the same period. Some may think Messi edges it with more team trophies won, he is ultimate champion in league titles. But some may think Ronaldo edges it with more international success and success in different league etc. Ronaldo actually does also hold more records than Messi (around 150 vs 110). But Messi is 2 years younger.
In terms of legacy, I think Ronaldo edges it a little with his recent success for Portugal (on paper) and with more big moments in CL (in everyones mind).
Opinion-wise, more people would prefer Messi, as he is more enjoyable to watch with the eyes.
In the end, the current poll more or less reflect the reality: Messi ~57% vs Ronaldo ~43%
Although by end of season, it could be closer to 50 vs 50
Footnote:
In terms of GOAT discussion, popular opinion being Messi in top 3 vs Ronaldo in top 5. Personally I would rank Pele/Maradona in top 1-2, whereas Messi/Ronaldo in top 3-4 for now. Although I really think Ronaldo does have a chance end up being greater player than Messi (whilst Messi still the better player), and my guess is people in future may rank 1.Pele 2.Ronaldo 3.Messi 4.Maradona in GOAT ranking. No one can beat Pele 3 WC and "1000" goals on paper, so he is definitely no.1. For Maradona, people will remember his insane footballing, his legacy in 86 WC + his 2 winning season for a "small" club in Serie A, will remain greatest peak of footballer forever. But career-wise, I think he is far behind Pele/Ronaldo/Messi. For Ronaldo, history will remember all his insane no. of goals, insane records, insane consistency, insane CL performances and success, no. of Ballon D'or wins, Portugal impossible success, success at every level and many big moments on biggest stage. For Messi, history will remember his insane no. of goals, his insane footballing and style of play, his insane performances on the pitch, no. of Ballon D'or wins, insane consistency, insane goalscoring years in 2012, and insane success at club level.
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Who do you guys think will end up with more Ballon D'ors by the end of their career? Both are on 5 each. They are past their peak and their dominance will soon be broken by new players. So the next 2 or 3 Ballon D'ors will determine the winner. I know many of you don't rate these individual trophies as they are subjective in nature but it is still a matter of huge pride for the players and they value it a lot.
In my opinion, Ronaldo will end up with more as Madrid will continue to dominate in the CL which will give Ronaldo a better shot at winning the award.
In my opinion, Ronaldo will end up with more as Madrid will continue to dominate in the CL which will give Ronaldo a better shot at winning the award.
Based only on them, as individuals, I'd say Ronaldo because of his determination and ambition but it could go either way as it would depending on how their teams perform.
Amen
Honestly, this is not the first discussion we have had about this point. You keep splitting hairs in order to defend your point. Yes, the comment "outside of goals, Ronaldo doesn't contribute much" wasn't exactly precise but you very well knew what I meant. You did the same thing with @Ishdalar some pages ago. When discussing with you, one could use a PR guy that analyzes every wording before replying because if something is a little inaccurate, you simply lunge at it instead of discussing the meaning.
That is essentially what your argument comes down to. So Cristiano contributes more than being a goal scorer by.. being a goal scorer? Wow. Mindblowing. See, you say that Cristiano created the opportunity that lead to Benatia fouling Vazquez because of his run and header. I don't agree and think it was thanks to Kroos' brillant through ball which was much more difficult. That's the thing. Ronaldo does what goal scorers do and he has been doing it for ages now. Why should I change my mind now if I have seen it a hundred times before and didn't do it? When he suddenly starts playing these through balls and dribble like he used to do, then I would consider it, but not like that.
You are one of those who is triggered if someone compares Cristiano to Müller. But the arguments you make can be made for more or less every striker. That is nothing that sets CR7 apart, he is just better at it than anybody else. I would like to think why you think Cristiano contributes more to the game than Gerd Müller (who still has the most assists in Bayerns history, if I remember correctly. Cristiano to Vazquez would be a typical Müller assist).
And for the past 6 years you thing he's played as the furthest man on his team? Because that's just a blatant lie. He has more assists than Suarez and more assists than Lewandowski while playing deeper than both... must be magic. Or there must be some bullshit excuse to take away from this fact. Quite incredible how you managed to turn that around. Most of the chances he created went to Benzema for Madrid and for Postiga and Hugo Almeida in the national team, if he had a prolific striker next to him he'd have more assists than he has now too.
Why does where he play even matter by the way? This whole discussion is about your point: 'Ronaldo for the past 7 years doesn't contribute much outside of goals'. I say he assists which is a contribution and then you start arguing that he only does it because of where he plays? It's just so frustratingly stupid. So does he contribute or not? You just start changing the whole point, it's impossible.
Not disrespecting? What the hell is it then? It's beyond disrespecting, not even the most deluded of Barcelona fans would write that Ronaldo doesn't contribute much outside of goals for the past 7 years. It's either disrespectful or just blatant lying. You might want to learn what a striker is too, Ronaldo's been a pure striker for 7 years... do you even know what a striker is?
How do you explain the fact that this season aside he's never even been the most forward player on his team? That's pretty weird for a striker.
While Messi played as a false 9 (a ten "hidden" at the 9), at least since Mourinho took over Cristiano was something like a false 7 (a 9 "hidden" at the 7). The only reason he played there was that it was the best position for him to start his runs into the box (which is also why he positions himself a little bit behind Benzema nowadays). The whole system was designed for him to score. Di Maria was completely isolated on the right wing by default, the system looked very asymmetric and Özil and Benzema/Higuain were there for providing Ronaldo with goal scoring opportunities. Yes, that is a striker for me. "Farthest player on the pitch" was probably wrong (should really hire a PR guy). The correct phrasing would probably have been "target player of attacks".
That is also the reason why I compared him with players like Ribery, Robben, Neymar etc. who were actual (inverted) wingers and had a completely different play style to the alleged winger CR7.
Suarez is actually the best example of what I mean. He has had 17, 19, 15 and 6 assists since he joined Barcelona (by the way, outperforming Ronaldo in every La Liga season he has played despite having less games). If you are playing as a striker in such a team you will obviously be involved in many attacks and gather assists etc. That doesn't mean that you are a brillant contributor or have much impact on the game. It would be a ridiculous thing to say Suarez had a similar impact as Messi because he simply hasn't.
Just wanted to say, neither Ronaldo or Messi spend much time as goalkeeper or central defender.
Messi -- great playmaker, who makes plays to score goals
Ronaldo -- great number of assists, to score goals
Messi -- scores goals to score goals
Ronaldo -- scores goals to score goals
Messi -- dribbles, passes, dinks, shimmies to move the ball up the field and score goals
Ronaldo -- dribbles, passes, dinks, shimmies to move the ball up the field and score goals
It's just that in this CL stage, Messi didn't succeed and Ronaldo did (just barely).
Messi -- great playmaker, who makes plays to score goals
Ronaldo -- great number of assists, to score goals
Messi -- scores goals to score goals
Ronaldo -- scores goals to score goals
Messi -- dribbles, passes, dinks, shimmies to move the ball up the field and score goals
Ronaldo -- dribbles, passes, dinks, shimmies to move the ball up the field and score goals
It's just that in this CL stage, Messi didn't succeed and Ronaldo did (just barely).
How does Messi's treatment with HGH for 3 years during a key period of growth in his younger days factor into this debate?
It's worth noting that it's one of the same banned substances Lance Armstrong was found guilty of using. It was allowed as an 'therapeutic exception'.
It's worth noting that it's one of the same banned substances Lance Armstrong was found guilty of using. It was allowed as an 'therapeutic exception'.
I'm a Ronaldo fan but from what I understand, I am glad Messi took those drugs. I don't care about the rules but if that drug was what was needed to see one of the greatest of all time then good decision
I hear you, but how would the drug affect other players? For example, if it was given to Lukaku as a child, would he have grown to have been even bigger and stronger?
I don't have enough info on this so can't speak to it. From what I know Messi needed it?
Yeah I'm also not sure. Hopefully someone in this thread can give us a bit more info.
It doesn't. Messi suffered from HGH deficiency, that is to say he lacks the neccessary amount of HGH to grow like a normal healthy child. Therefore he got treatment to bring his serum GH level in line with teenagers of his age so that he goes through puberty effectively. For instance would you question insulin being given to a diabetic sufferer as a form of therapeutic advantage? Not the greatest example but the gist is playing catch up in order to have a normal growth into adulthood is not performance enhancing.
It's a bit of hindsight thing, but I agree with that it's been an privilege to see him play .
I agree with the bold. It's not the same as Lance using it, for instance. But it's not cut and dry for me without better information on the doping potential even if it was therapy
I'm inclined to agree with this, but then remember United would probably have won 09 and 11...
Well the crucial point is the administration is to get the serum levels in line with the reference range for children of his age. In other words a young Messi without treatment would be in a massive disadvantage compared to kids his age as the difference in deficiency is larger than getting treated and being on normal level.
I'm inclined to agree with this, but then remember United would probably have won 09 and 11...
Would happily have gone without Messi to add two CLs and tie with liverpool
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Exactly...Would happily have gone without Messi to add to CLs and tie with liverpool
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