Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

Messi or Ronaldo

  • Messi

  • Ronaldo

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Cal? said:
Because generally speaking (this is not directed at you personally), Messi fans will come up with the most ludicrous excuses for their man not winning the Balon D'Or, yet when a similar point is made against Messi, they refuse to listen.

For years, I've been talking about the whole Barca teams playing to Messi's strength and making him look amazing, they refuse to accept that perhaps having the likes of Xavi and Iniesta on form helped to make Messi look amazing.

Yet these past 2 years, when Ronaldo outperforms Messi, it's because Real Madrid spent trillions on players to help Ronaldo look amazing and he deserves no credit. :rolleyes:
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This coming from you is very, very rich.
 
Cheesy said:
Well of course having top players surrounding him will help (it's hardly going to hinder him having the world's best midfielders at that time!), but that doesn't detract from the fact that if you watch Messi, it's clear to see how magnificent he is with a ball at his feet; how good his control, dribbling, scoring is, for example. And the counter-argument that he doesn't perform at international level doesn't really work anymore because his international record has massively improved in recent years too.

And with Ronaldo, while Real have gotten even better now, it's hardly as if he was playing with shite players before, was it? Since he's gone there and up until last season, he's played with guys like Ozil, Di Maria, Alonso, Benzema and numerous other top players. Messi generally had better players around him, yeah, but that doesn't not make him a better player, does it?
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A 5-year old could see Messi is far less reliant on service from his teammates than Ronaldo.
 
Cal? said:
Because generally speaking (this is not directed at you personally), Messi fans will come up with the most ludicrous excuses for their man not winning the Balon D'Or, yet when a similar point is made against Messi, they refuse to listen.

For years, I've been talking about the whole Barca teams playing to Messi's strength and making him look amazing, they refuse to accept that perhaps having the likes of Xavi and Iniesta on form helped to make Messi look amazing.

Yet these past 2 years, when Ronaldo outperforms Messi, it's because Real Madrid spent trillions on players to help Ronaldo look amazing and he deserves no credit. :rolleyes:
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for years you were wrong, because now that xavi and iniesta are not playing even 30 percent of what they used to, messi is still the best player in the world
 
Marcosdeto said:
for years you were wrong, because now that xavi and iniesta are not playing even 30 percent of what they used to, messi is still the best player in the world
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[CAL]See who won the Ballon d'Or, it's the only measure of footballer's ability[/CAL]
 
Revan said:
Messi's goalscoring record has significantly improved since November. At the beginning of the season for example he had like 3 goals in 7 games. At the beginning of November he had only 9 goals. At one time of the season, Ronaldo had both more goals and mroe assists than him. Now Messi is leading on both those stats.

His performances (not including goals and assists) have been around the same level for the entire season. But goals matter, and since November Messi has been scoring a lot of them. I think that until then Neymar - let alone Ronaldo - was playing better than him, and at times looked to me that Nemar was carrying Barca.
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Well, I did say Cristiano Ronaldo was outscoring but not outperforming Messi, so I think I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about Messi's performances rather than goalscoring.

His goalscoring went up a level but his performances have stayed constant at a high level. If you agree with that as you seem to then I'm not sure why you took issue?

And nah, Messi was carrying Barcelona. Neymar was just a finisher of chances at the start of the season, no one was responsible for Barcelona's attack more than Messi.
 
Cheesy said:
Well of course having top players surrounding him will help (it's hardly going to hinder him having the world's best midfielders at that time!), but that doesn't detract from the fact that if you watch Messi, it's clear to see how magnificent he is with a ball at his feet; how good his control, dribbling, scoring is, for example. And the counter-argument that he doesn't perform at international level doesn't really work anymore because his international record has massively improved in recent years too.

And with Ronaldo, while Real have gotten even better now, it's hardly as if he was playing with shite players before, was it? Since he's gone there and up until last season, he's played with guys like Ozil, Di Maria, Alonso, Benzema and numerous other top players. Messi generally had better players around him, yeah, but that doesn't not make him a better player, does it?
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I've never denied any of those things.

Now obviously not shite players, but do you honestly think Real 09-11 minus Ronaldo is a comparable side to Barca 09-11 minus Messi?

You seem like one of those who can be reasoned with and I can accept you have a different opinion on who's better.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Well, I did say Cristiano Ronaldo was outscoring but not outperforming Messi, so I think I made it perfectly clear that I was talking about Messi's performances rather than goalscoring.

His goalscoring went up a level but his performances have stayed constant at a high level. If you agree with that as you seem to then I'm not sure why you took issue?

And nah, Messi was carrying Barcelona. Neymar was just a finisher of chances at the start of the season, no one was responsible for Barcelona's attack more than Messi.
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Which means that he is playing better now then back then. Which was my point.

If a player is playing as good as he had been playing before, but is scoring (far) more often than it means that is playing better. Fairly simple.

Ronaldo started the new season on fire, scoring like twice a game. So regardless of how many cool passes Messi made, you can't claim that he was playing better for that period. But when Messi upped his level then things changed because Messi's general play is far better than Ronaldo's.
 
Marcosdeto said:
for years you were wrong, because now that xavi and iniesta are not playing even 30 percent of what they used to, messi is still the best player in the world
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Is it a coincidence that as soon as Xavi and Iniesta aren't that good, Ronaldo has been the better player for 2 years?

Messi is currently having a better 2015, let's see if he can maintain it.
 
Cal? said:
Is it a coincidence that as soon as Xavi and Iniesta aren't that good, Ronaldo has been the better player for 2 years?

Messi is currently having a better 2015, let's see if he can maintain it.
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Except he hasn't but you'd obviously make that point.

I assume you have absolutely no response to the World Cup claim? You just threw it out there with no basis whatsoever.
 
Revan said:
Which means that he is playing better now then back then. Which was my point.

If a player is playing as good as he had been playing before, but is scoring (far) more often than it means that is playing better. Fairly simple.

Ronaldo started the new season on fire, scoring like twice a game. So regardless of how many cool passes Messi made, you can't claim that he was playing better for that period. But when Messi upped his level then things changed because Messi's general play is far better than Ronaldo's.
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I disagree, but we'll never see eye to eye. Adding a goal to a brilliant performance doesn't mean you took it up a level as far as I'm concerned, if you think otherwise that's up to you.
 
Cal? said:
I've never denied any of those things.

Now obviously not shite players, but do you honestly think Real 09-11 minus Ronaldo is a comparable side to Barca 09-11 minus Messi?

You seem like one of those who can be reasoned with and I can accept you have a different opinion on who's better.
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Real 09-11 with Ronaldo isn't comparable to Barca 09-11 with Messi either, the distance is even bigger if you take both of them into equation because Messi clearly brought plenty more to the table back then.
 
Sarni said:
This coming from you is very, very rich.
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Honestly you have not seen Messi fans claim Ronaldo only won it in 2013 because Fifa changed the deadline to after the playoff against Sweden?
 
Cal? said:
Is it a coincidence that as soon as Xavi and Iniesta aren't that good, Ronaldo has been the better player for 2 years?

Messi is currently having a better 2015, let's see if he can maintain it.
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Every team starts declining after a few years of dominance. So no, it isn't a coincidence that when Barca started to decline, Messi was plying worse than before. It was to be expected.

If Real starts declining, then Ronaldo won't be as good as now. It is a sports game after all.

What cannot be denied IMO, is that at their absolute best (take it their best form for a few games, or their best season), Messi easily outperformed Ronaldo. More goals, more assists and a better general play. More trophies too.

Ronaldo was better on last season, and probably was better too on 12-13. This season, Messi is winning.
 
Cal? said:
I've never denied any of those things.

Now obviously not shite players, but do you honestly think Real 09-11 minus Ronaldo is a comparable side to Barca 09-11 minus Messi?

You seem like one of those who can be reasoned with and I can accept you have a different opinion on who's better.
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Honestly? While I'd say that Barca team without Messi would be better, the Real one would be capable of giving it a good game. I mean, they did run Barca incredibly close in the league in 2010, for example. They'd have a top midfield (albeit not as good as Barca's), while Higuian and Benzema would pose a strong threat up front. Then there's Casillas in goal, who was probably the best in the world at that time, and a fairly solid defence too.

Problem is, I feel like this is where you often go wrong in the argument, and over-complicate the whole Messi vs Ronaldo thing. The best way to judge the two players is simply by watching them on the field; how they play; how good they are etc. And in that regard, the majority feel that Messi has more ability, is a better dribbler, has better close control, and exudes more of an overall impact on the game than Ronaldo. Not anything against Ronaldo, but when I watch Messi, I simply feel that he's unmatched when it comes to footballing ability, even if Ronaldo has often ran him close, stripping away all the extra semantics that are regularly thrown into the debate.
 
Cal? said:
Honestly you have not seen Messi fans claim Ronaldo only won it in 2013 because Fifa changed the deadline to after the playoff against Sweden?
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Honestly not. I don't even see many Messi fanboys on here and I don't frequent other forums, you're the only fanboy I've seen in Ronaldo v Messi thread to be fair.
 
Sarni said:
Real 09-11 with Ronaldo isn't comparable to Barca 09-11 with Messi either, the distance is even bigger if you take both of them into equation because Messi clearly brought plenty more to the table back then.
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Barca 09-11 with or without Messi will probably have won all those trophies, Messi just made them look even better.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
I disagree, but we'll never see eye to eye. Adding a goal to a brilliant performance doesn't mean you took it up a level as far as I'm concerned, if you think otherwise that's up to you.
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If you do for a game, no. If you do it regularly, then it would be foolish to suggest than scoring more goals regularly (while keeping the same general play) doesn't mean that the player is playing better. It is as simple as you can get.

Goals, which in your opinion doesn't matter and are a footnote on the game of football, are the most essential part of it. For example, you can keep the ball forever but it won't matter if you also don't score goals.
 
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Cal? said:
Barca 09-11 with or without Messi will probably have won all those trophies, Messi just made them look even better.
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I very much doubt they'd have won two Champions League titles plus two league titles but you're bound to say that to downplay Messi.

Real Madrid last season however would have probably won Champions League even without Ronaldo while we're at it. He held them back in that final against Atletico unlike Messi who scored vital goals in both Champions League finals he played in.
 
Cal? said:
Barca 09-11 with or without Messi will probably have won all those trophies, Messi just made them look even better.
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I completely disagree. It wouldn't have been near as good or succesful without him. He was their focal point of their attack.

It can be argued however, that Barca wouldn't have win all those trophies if they didn't had Xavi or Iniesta. But without Messi, it is pretty much sure that they wouldn't have been as good.
 
Revan said:
Every team starts declining after a few years of dominance. So no, it isn't a coincidence that when Barca started to decline, Messi was plying worse than before. It was to be expected.

If Real starts declining, then Ronaldo won't be as good as now. It is a sports game after all.

What cannot be denied IMO, is that at their absolute best (take it their best form for a few games, or their best season), Messi easily outperformed Ronaldo. More goals, more assists and a better general play. More trophies too.

Ronaldo was better on last season, and probably was better too on 12-13. This season, Messi is winning.
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It was Marcosdeto who insinuated that Messi's greatness 09-11 had nothing to do with having on form Xavi and Iniesta in the same team.
Marcosdeto said:
for years you were wrong, because now that xavi and iniesta are not playing even 30 percent of what they used to, messi is still the best player in the world
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Cal? said:
It was Marcosdeto who insinuated that Messi's greatness 09-11 had nothing to do with having on form Xavi and Iniesta in the same team.
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Every player plays beter if the team is better. Send Ronaldo to Stoke City and he would not look near as good. Same with Messi.

However marcos has a point. Regardless that Barca are now a shadow of the team they were (and both Xavi and Iniesta have declined) Messi is still the better player.
 
NoWinNoFee said:
Are you retarded or something?



^^
There I've shortened it for you.
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Honestly, I literally don't have a clue what you're on about. How have you decided from my post saying that Cristiano hasn't outperformed Messi in the 14/15 season that I am arguing about who deserves the 2014 calendar year Ballon d'Or?

I am beyond confused. Are you drunk?
 
Revan said:
I completely disagree. It wouldn't have been near as good or succesful without him. He was their focal point of their attack.

It can be argued however, that Barca wouldn't have win all those trophies if they didn't had Xavi or Iniesta. But without Messi, it is pretty much sure that they wouldn't have been as good.
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This is something that cannot be proven either way. What can be proven and is quantitative is that Ronaldo was poor in the CL final and only scored from the penalty spot in the dying minutes with the game already done, Messi scored two important goals in both finals against United. But knowing Cal he'll probably deny that and say Ronaldo's penalty spot goal was far more impressive and important.
 
Sarni said:
I very much doubt they'd have won two Champions League titles plus two league titles but you're bound to say that to downplay Messi.

Real Madrid last season however would have probably won Champions League even without Ronaldo while we're at it. He held them back in that final against Atletico unlike Messi who scored vital goals in both Champions League finals he played in.
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Spain managed to win everything those same years and are essentially Barca minus Messi.

Have you forgotten the all time CL scoring record he broke last season? Messi's 2nd goal against us in 2009 wasn't that "vital". Ronaldo's goal against Chelsea however, was definitely vital.
 
Revan said:
Every player plays beter if the team is better. Send Ronaldo to Stoke City and he would not look near as good. Same with Messi.

However marcos has a point. Regardless that Barca are now a shadow of the team they were (and both Xavi and Iniesta have declined) Messi is still the better player.
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For the last month or so.

With Xavi and Iniesta looking a shadow of their former selves, Ronaldo has been the better player for the best part of 2 years.
 
Cal? said:
Spain managed to win everything those same years and are essentially Barca minus Messi.

Have you forgotten the all time CL scoring record he broke last season? Messi's 2nd goal against us in 2009 wasn't that "vital". Ronaldo's goal against Chelsea however, was definitely vital.
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You realise Spain are an international team that play in different tournaments and against different teams, yes?
 
Cal? said:
Spain managed to win everything those same years and are essentially Barca minus Messi.

Have you forgotten the all time CL scoring record he broke last season? Messi's 2nd goal against us in 2009 wasn't that "vital". Ronaldo's goal against Chelsea however, was definitely vital.
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Spain didn't play in Champions League or La Liga last time I checked.

Yeah, all time goalscoring CL record that's only important to you when it plays into Ronaldo's hand. How was Messi's goal in 2009 which basically sealed the game and made it impossible for us to come back less important than Ronaldo's goal against Chelsea which saw a response from them within several minutes?
 
Sarni said:
This is something that cannot be proven either way. What can be proven and is quantitative is that Ronaldo was poor in the CL final and only scored from the penalty spot in the dying minutes with the game already done, Messi scored two important goals in both finals against United. But knowing Cal he'll probably deny that and say Ronaldo's penalty spot goal was far more impressive and important.
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I don't think that we are disagreeing. Ronaldo was poor on the final (he was poor on 2009 final too) while Messi was excellent on both finals.

What I was saying there is that Barca wouldn't have been as succesful as they were without Messi. He saved them many times. He destroyed us on 2011. Contrary to what many people think, Barca's road to the trophies (UCL) was very difficult and in many games they barely managed to win. Messi was always there, scoring, assisting or creating space for the others.
 
cesc's_mullet said:
He's hilarious. He uses arguments against Messi that are even more suited to Ronaldo.
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Yep, poor in big games and when you come up with Messi's two CL final goals he just disregards them completely.
 
The problem with all the "Xavi and Iniesta made him look better" and "They'd still win without him" argument is that they're painstakingly hypothetical, generally suited to a certain agenda, and get away from the best way of judging footballers - by how they play football.

And in the cases of many, it's agreed that Messi is a better footballer overall than Ronaldo. He's a better dribbler, has better control, tends to have more of an influence on the overall game, and is arguably the greatest player football has seen. Stripping back the rest of the arguments, that should be what it boils down to - who is actually better at the game of football, whatever position you hold.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
You realise Spain are an international team that play in different tournaments and against different teams, yes?
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If you always state the obvious, you're always right.

Spain are as close to Barca-Messi as it gets and they basically managed to win everything those few years, in a much more boring way...
 
Revan said:
I don't think that we are disagreeing. Ronaldo was poor on the final (he was poor on 2009 final too) while Messi was excellent on both finals.

What I was saying there is that Barca wouldn't have been as succesful as they were without Messi. He saved them many times. He destroyed us on 2011. Contrary to what many people think, Barca's road to the trophies (UCL) was very difficult and in many games they barely managed to win. Messi was always there, scoring, assisting or creating space for the others.
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Yes, I agree with that. I reckon they'd have lacked that edge without Messi in their side. If you took that calm and composed Spain side and put them in club competition where they'd come up against coherent teams full of good players who have played with each other for years I reckon they wouldn't have done anywhere near as well as the did at Euro and World Cup. It's what that Spain side missed which made them very boring to watch compared to an exciting Barcelona side - Messi. It was also pretty evident when watching both teams and yet again Cal basically shoots himself in the foot when he gives that as an example of Messi's shitness.
 
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