Messi v Ronaldo | Contains double your daily salt allowance

[Deleted member 101472]

It seems messi is marginally ahead from a percentage standpoint in terms of conversion rate and on target rate (for free kicks)

So if you can’t use that alone to separate them from free kicks, then you can’t use Any type of gpg ratio to separate their goal scoring, as it’s so eerily similar.

 

[LuenerLinguist]

http://www.thesignificantgame.com/2018/02/is-cristiano-ronaldo-good-free-kick.html

It's certainly pretty close, how one has a reputation of being brilliant at them and the other has a reputation of being crap at them I'll never understand

wow thanks for that. I had just got the feeling that he is actual really poor at free kicks. Never see him score one.

 

[Ronaldo's Mum Eh?]

Ronaldo is better at many things fine:

faster runner
Taller
Higher jumper
Cooler hair

The Ronaldo is a more complete player is utter and complete nonsense though. He's not.

Ronaldo is the more complete attacker. Maybe not complete player.

 

[Peyroteo]

It seems messi is marginally ahead from a percentage standpoint in terms of conversion rate and on target rate (for free kicks)

So if you can’t use that alone to separate them from free kicks, then you can’t use Any type of gpg ratio to separate their goal scoring, as it’s so eerily similar.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Numbers in football can be deceiving but when it comes to direct freekicks I think they're very relevant. From 2009/10 to 2016/17, Ronaldo's scored 19 goals out of 292 freekicks and Messi's scored 18 out of 232 freekicks in La Liga. In the CL, Ronaldo's scored 10 out of 105 and Messi 2 out of 64 in the CL.

Ronaldo - 29 out of 397 (7.3%)

Messi - 20 out of 296 (6.7%)

Messi's scored 3 or 4 this season I think so that should be closer now, but Ronaldo takes a bigger volume since he shoots from further out. The only reason people think Messi's easily better at freekicks is because he gets close to scoring more often since he places his shots rather than shooting with power.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Do you have any evidence for this?

Numbers in football can be deceiving but when it comes to direct freekicks I think they're very relevant. From 2009/10 to 2016/17, Ronaldo's scored 19 goals out of 292 freekicks and Messi's scored 18 out of 232 freekicks in La Liga. In the CL, Ronaldo's scored 10 out of 105 and Messi 2 out of 64 in the CL.

Ronaldo - 29 out of 397 (7.3%)

Messi - 20 out of 296 (6.7%)

Messi's scored 3 or 4 this season I think so that should be closer now, but Ronaldo takes a bigger volume since he shoots from further out. The only reason people think Messi's better at freekicks is because he gets close to scoring more often since he places his shots rather than shooting with power.

Exactly!

 

[PuyolC]

Do you have any evidence for this?

Numbers in football can be deceiving but when it comes to direct freekicks I think they're very relevant. From 2009/10 to 2016/17, Ronaldo's scored 19 goals out of 292 freekicks and Messi's scored 18 out of 232 freekicks in La Liga. In the CL, Ronaldo's scored 10 out of 105 and Messi 2 out of 64 in the CL.

Ronaldo - 29 out of 397 (7.3%)

Messi - 20 out of 296 (6.7%)

Messi's scored 3 or 4 this season I think so that should be closer now, but Ronaldo takes a bigger volume since he shoots from further out. The only reason people think Messi's easily better at freekicks is because he gets close to scoring more often since he places his shots rather than shooting with power.

These numbers are completely wrong, they don't consider competitions like the copa del rey or the supercopa or UEFA supercup.

Messi has scored 32 free kicks since 2009/10: https://www.transfermarkt.com/lione...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=

 

[KirkDuyt]

Ronaldo is the more complete attacker. Maybe not complete player.

Is he though? He scores negligibly more. However he is purely the end of the attack whereas Messi can statt the attack be the middle of an attack or be the one to push the ball into the net. Messi can do wel in all attacking positions. I’d say Ronaldo is a better pure striker than Messi in a target man way, but that’s it.

 

[Peyroteo]

These numbers are completely wrong, they don't consider competitions like the copa del rey or the supercopa or UEFA supercup.

Messi has scored 32 free kicks since 2009/10: https://www.transfermarkt.com/lione...ttbewerb=&pos=&minute=&pos=&torart=207&stand=

I literally said that it only takes into account the league and the champions league, the numbers are right. I don't have the number of attempts for the other competitions which is why I excluded them.

The numbers will vary depending on which seasons you pick, etc. but overall they're about as good as eachother at scoring from freekicks.

 

[Ishdalar]

I'm sorry but without Ronnie, we're not winning the CL or most of those league titles. He was unstoppable in England.

The season after the one you sold Ronnie you won the league and got to a UCL final anyway. We've yet to see how big of a donwfall for Barcelona Messi leaving us will be, time will tell.

Do you have any evidence for this?

Numbers in football can be deceiving but when it comes to direct freekicks I think they're very relevant. From 2009/10 to 2016/17, Ronaldo's scored 19 goals out of 292 freekicks and Messi's scored 18 out of 232 freekicks in La Liga. In the CL, Ronaldo's scored 10 out of 105 and Messi 2 out of 64 in the CL.

Ronaldo - 29 out of 397 (7.3%)

Messi - 20 out of 296 (6.7%)

Messi's scored 3 or 4 this season I think so that should be closer now, but Ronaldo takes a bigger volume since he shoots from further out. The only reason people think Messi's easily better at freekicks is because he gets close to scoring more often since he places his shots rather than shooting with power.

You usually bash on stats like "conversion rate" when people use them to put Messi above Ronaldo as a goalscorer, now you're going to use that to talk about who's a better FK shooter?

People think Leo is better because 1) Recency bias (the same thing that's igniting the GOAT debate, after everyone thought it was done 3 years ago), 2) The amount of great FK's he gets saved by the keeper or hit the post (and if you think that doesn't count, then the next time someone like William hits the post twice against us there's no reason to say we were "lucky", a miss should be a miss for Messi in a FK or for William in open play in your opinion) and 3) Because to top recency bias, his biggest feats from FK have been done lately, like scoring 9 in 2016, twice in a final or 3 league fixtures in a row.

They score at the same rate as eachother so why would you pick Messi?

Because they score at the same rate career-wise, but lately, Leo is miles better than Ronaldo at free kicks.

Like in any argument, when you choose what player you'd want recent form and peak form are important too, the same way everytime someone brings up their career goals/game ratio you are quick to point out that Ronaldo took longer to develop into a goalscorer, people are free to assume Leo is better than Cris at free kicks even if it took him longer to be better at it, as you yourself said numbers can be deceiving

 

[wr8_utd]

That's it in a nutshell. Forget this magician, this artist, this genius etc... Ronaldo is just a footballer, who scores goals - something that is at the end of the day the entire point of what he's trying to accomplish. I've never come across an athlete in any sport who gets so much abuse for being the best at something that he's actually trying to be the best at.

That's the thing though, Messi scores just as much as Ronaldo despite being a magician/genius etc etc. I mean, 90 goals in a season?

 

[Ishdalar]

I literally said that it only takes into account the league and the champions league, the numbers are right. I don't have the number of attempts for the other competitions which is why I excluded them.

The numbers will vary depending on which seasons you pick, etc. but overall they're about as good as eachother at scoring from freekicks.

I'll be kinda naive here and believe that, but you'd agree that leaving out of your stats finals and Cup ties, where he has scored 5 goals since 09/10 (what amounts leaving out 20% of his FK goals at club level) skews greatly your stats?. The bulk of the FK Leo and Cris throw come from La Liga, surely he hasn't shot 60 free kicks between Supercups and Copa del Rey matches in that span of time to keep the same ratio.

 

[wr8_utd]

Feck, I knew it! Ronaldo is secretly 5 midgets wearing a raincoat and you're one of them!

Also, Roddick alone won 38 titles. As the ancient Chinese proverb goes: check yoself before you wreck yo self

21 of the 32 singles titles Roddick won were at ATP 250 level. Just 1 Slam and 5 ATP 1000 titles for a man who was the 2nd best for so long.

 

[PuyolC]

I literally said that it only takes into account the league and the champions league, the numbers are right. I don't have the number of attempts for the other competitions which is why I excluded them.

The numbers will vary depending on which seasons you pick, etc. but overall they're about as good as eachother at scoring from freekicks.

I literally said that it only takes into account the league and the champions league, the numbers are right. I don't have the number of attempts for the other competitions which is why I excluded them.

The numbers will vary depending on which seasons you pick, etc. but overall they're about as good as eachother at scoring from freekicks.

Sorry but it seems you cherry-picked these stats. If we consider all competitions Ronaldo scored 32 goals from free kick since 2009/10, which are only 3 more than 29, while Messi has scored 12 more, which means that his conversion rate should be much higher than 6.7% considering that in the super cup and copa del rey a player doesn't play a lot of matches and therefore doesn't have a lot of attempts.

If you consider all competitions it's obvious that Messi doesn't have a 6.7% conversion rate.

 

[Cal?]

Sorry but it seems you cherry-picked these stats. If we consider all competitions Ronaldo scored 32 goals from free kick since 2009/10, which are only 3 more than 29, while Messi has scored 12 more, which means that his conversion rate should be much higher than 6.7% considering that in the super cup and copa del rey a player doesn't play a lot of matches and therefore doesn't have a lot of attempts.

If you consider all competitions it's obvious that Messi doesn't have a 6.7% conversion rate.

Messi fans resorting to Copa del Rey and Supercups to make their point

 

[Cal?]

Exactly!

And how useful is getting close to scoring if ones doesn’t score?

The fact is that if a free kick clips the outside of the post, it makes no difference to one that lands outside the stadium, except from ‘oh, so close’ from the commentator

 

[Kinsella]

And how useful is getting close to scoring if ones doesn’t score?

The fact is that if a free kick clips the outside of the post, it makes no difference to one that lands outside the stadium, except from ‘oh, so close’ from the commentator

It means the player's aim is better dopey.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

And how useful is getting close to scoring if ones doesn’t score?

The fact is that if a free kick clips the outside of the post, it makes no difference to one that lands outside the stadium, except from ‘oh, so close’ from the commentator

It’s like a game of bullseye with one player keeping Hitting 25 and the other hitting double 5 and double 1.

 

[PuyolC]

Messi fans resorting to Copa del Rey and Supercups to make their point

I don't know what's wrong with that, especially considering that some of these goals were against good teams like Real Madrid or Sevilla

 

[kidbob]

In my mind it goes like this: compare Ronaldo to Hazard and Ronaldo is clearly better but not in every aspect. Now compare Ronaldo to Messi and Messi is better is all general footballing things. The only things he falls behind in is goalscoring (only slightly and has outscored Ronaldo in many seasons) and heading (pretty easy to see why).

It's only opinion but to me seeing that Messi is simply better at football is as easy as seeing that Ronaldo is taller than Messi.

For me though Ronaldo belongs up there with Pele and Maradona.

Not as elegant as Zidane but Ronaldo is better because of his end product. The problem is that he's up against a guy who is more elegant than all others, a better passer, a better dribbler, a better playmaker and the most important thing is that he, unlike nearly any in history, can keep up with Ronaldo's insane output and sometimes even better it.

 

[IFC 1905]

For me though Ronaldo belongs up there with Pele and Maradona.

To me no. He's a freaking machine, not a genius. Those (and Messi) are geniuses.

I mean he's the closest a player can get to those 3, without being those 3.

 

[Ishdalar]

Messi fans resorting to Copa del Rey and Supercups to make their point

Far as I know, the same wall, goals and most of the time almost the same goalkeepers protect their goals from a free kick in the cup legs or Supercup finals.

It's understandable that if someone scored 4 goals against Cordoba you can't really count him as the hottest player on earth... but free kicks are one of the few things that are equally hard to score from 3th division to a World Cup, bar the occasional Goalkeeper super save.

 

[FujiVice]

I must say, when we played Real Madrid over 2 legs in 2013, I was very confident we could keep Ronaldo relatively quiet with the right tactics. I was confident we could beat them (and probably would not for the Nani sending off). When we played Barca in 2011 in the final, when Messi was at his most dangerous, I had fecking anxiety prior to the kick off. There have been times when I genuinely thought Messi was unplayable.

At their very very best, Messi beats Ronaldo for me.

 

[Summit]

I was very confident we could keep Ronaldo relatively quiet with the right tactics

We never did though

 

[Jean claude van hire]

In my mind it goes like this: compare Ronaldo to Hazard and Ronaldo is clearly better but not in every aspect. Now compare Ronaldo to Messi and Messi is better is all general footballing things. The only things he falls behind in is goalscoring (only slightly and has outscored Ronaldo in many seasons) and heading (pretty easy to see why).

It's only opinion but to me seeing that Messi is simply better at football is as easy as seeing that Ronaldo is taller than Messi.

For me though Ronaldo belongs up there with Pele and Maradona.

Not as elegant as Zidane but Ronaldo is better because of his end product. The problem is that he's up against a guy who is more elegant than all others, a better passer, a better dribbler, a better playmaker and the most important thing is that he, unlike nearly any in history, can keep up with Ronaldo's insane output and sometimes even better it.

Any particular reason why the reference to Hazard? That said I think that you have pretty much nailed it more than most in here, great post.

 

[kidbob]

Any particular reason why the reference to Hazard? That said I think that you have pretty much nailed it more than most in here, great post.

just because I feel like that at his best that Hazard is kind of like a Messi lite. Might be just me though!

 

[FujiVice]

We never did though

For a player as good as him, we pretty much did until the sending off. He scored a header in the first game, which was pretty incredible, but we had him in our pocket in the 2nd leg. Messi ran us ragged in 09 and 11.

 

[Summit]

For a player as good as him, we pretty much did until the sending off. He scored a header in the first game, which was pretty incredible, but we had him in our pocket in the 2nd leg. Messi ran us ragged in 09 and 11.

and in 2008?

 

[izec]

If Messi wins the World Cup, the debate would be settled. 2016 changed this debate though, Ronaldo winning the EC gave him another argument. I dont see Argentina winning anything of significance though.

 

[Cal?]

It means the player's aim is better dopey.

No, it means he sacrificed power for accuracy, but as pointed out, their scoring rate from freekicks is similar.

It’s like a game of bullseye with one player keeping Hitting 25 and the other hitting double 5 and double 1.

Except with this game, it's either a goal or nothing, you don't get points for being close.

I don't know what's wrong with that, especially considering that some of these goals were against good teams like Real Madrid or Sevilla

I just meant that, for top clubs, the league and the CL are by far the most important competitions. IF, and that's an IF because I couldn't find any data on it, Messi needs to count the supercup and cup games to have a better freekick conversion ratio than Ronaldo, he can't be much better. Their record in CL & La Liga is similar.

Far as I know, the same wall, goals and most of the time almost the same goalkeepers protect their goals from a free kick in the cup legs or Supercup finals.

It's understandable that if someone scored 4 goals against Cordoba you can't really count him as the hottest player on earth... but free kicks are one of the few things that are equally hard to score from 3th division to a World Cup, bar the occasional Goalkeeper super save.

Actually, less pressure in a less important match, makes it easier to score, same with penalties.

If Messi wins the World Cup, the debate would be settled. 2016 changed this debate though, Ronaldo winning the EC gave him another argument. I dont see Argentina winning anything of significance though.

IF Ronaldo wins the WC, the debate will also be settled. I don't see Portugal winning it though.

 

[Ishdalar]

and in 2008?

Depends, if you consider stopping him from scoring then yeah.



But for any other player except a bunch of the greatest, a game like this could be a career highlight as long as any teammate scores a goal and they're through.

It's a constant with Messi, like the "he never scored against Chelsea" thing, like he was awful any game against them, 90% of the time even if he doesn't score, he's still Leo Messi doing Messi things in the pitch.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

@Cal?

But with bullseye, there’s only points for hitting the bullseye. But if one more often than not hits the green and the other hits all over the board, you’d be able to determine the more accurate player and it’s the same with the free kicks irrespective of scoring.

 

[Summit]

Depends, if you consider stopping him from scoring then yeah.

You just measured keeping ronaldo quite on exactly that (scoring), so I thought you would use the same principle for Messi.

 

[Kinsella]

No, it means he sacrificed power for accuracy, but as pointed out, their scoring rate from freekicks is similar.

No, it means he's more dangerous from free kicks.

Except with this game, it's either a goal or nothing, you don't get points for being close.

You would've loved the old teletext days days Cal?

 

[Ishdalar]

Actually, less pressure in a less important match, makes it easier to score, same with penalties.

Like scoring in a final, at the Bernabeu, before half time, with your team losing 2-0?



Or maybe scoring two in nine minutes on another final when you're losing

 

[Cal?]

@Cal?

But with bullseye, there’s only points for hitting the bullseye. But if one more often than not hits the green and the other hits all over the board, you’d be able to determine the more accurate player and it’s the same with the free kicks irrespective of scoring.

But in football, only goals count, I'm sure most amateur footballers can get every single freekick on target if you completely sacrifice power and chip the ball towards the goal. Whilst obviously that's not the case with Messi, it's obvious that he goes for accuracy more than power, whilst Ronaldo favours power.

The end result is a similar conversion rate over the last decade.

 

[Cal?]

No, it means he's more dangerous from free kicks.

You would've loved the old teletext days days Cal?

If you just chip the ball towards the goal and get 100% on target, are you more dangerous from free kicks?

 

[Peyroteo]

@Cal?

But with bullseye, there’s only points for hitting the bullseye. But if one more often than not hits the green and the other hits all over the board, you’d be able to determine the more accurate player and it’s the same with the free kicks irrespective of scoring.

Messi's more accurate, noone is denying that. The point is that being more accurate is completely irrelevant.

 

[Kinsella]

If you just chip the ball towards the goal and get 100% on target, are you more dangerous from free kicks?

When Messi steps up to take a free kick in a dangerous position it's much more likely he's going to seriously trouble the keeper and score than Ronaldo in a similarly dangerous position. Therefore he's more dangerous from free kicks.

 

[Neuron]

Messi's more accurate, noone is denying that. The point is that being more accurate is completely irrelevant.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Cal?]

When Messi steps up to take a free kick in a dangerous position it's much more likely he's going to seriously trouble the keeper and score than Ronaldo in a similarly dangerous position. Therefore he's more dangerous from free kicks.

As pointed out many times in this very thread, their freekick conversion ratio in the past decade is quite similar, so I don't know how you arrived at "he's much more likely to score than Ronaldo".