Messi in Miami

VivaJesperBlomqvist said:
He’s ridiculous. The greatest of all time. Absolutely no question about it.
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There's plenty of question about it. I think he's comfortably the best of this generation. Whether he is better than Maradona, or Pele, or DiStefano, or Giuseppe Meazza, or even Nevill Cobbold, is always going to be open to question.

OK, I'm being a bit tongue in cheek about Cobbold, but you get what I mean.
 
I think when fit he still is the best in the world because his technique and football IQ is unrivalled. The issue is staying fit when playing in a top 4 league, UCL football and international games. The older you get, the longer the recovery times.

Miami is ideal for him in that sense. If he joins Rosario and plays in the Copa Libertadores (do they?) it could become more difficult for him.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
To be fair, players are now very good till older than they used to be. And he’s playing in a poor league.
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That being said, it's relative also. He joined a team that was rock bottom of the MLS. Not just one of the worst. Definitively the worst. His influence on that team is a hell of an achievement.

But also, I think we all know that if he was in that Real team, his G+A's would read as good, or if not, better than Jude, Vini, and Kylian. Yeah, he's lost some legs, but he's still light years the most complete footballer in the world.
 
To me there no question hes the GOAT. His shift for Argentina vs Bolivia there recently was phenomenal also.

And the best about it, is not like he has adapted to be an in-the-box goal poacher to suit not having the legs anymore, He's all over the pitch, picks up the ball deep and creates loads for others with some great link up play. brilliant to see
 
Hoof the ball said:
That being said, it's relative also. He joined a team that was rock bottom of the MLS. Not just one of the worst. Definitively the worst. His influence on that team is a hell of an achievement.

But also, I think we all know that if he was in that Real team, his G+A's would read as good, or if not, better than Jude, Vini, and Kylian. Yeah, he's lost some legs, but he's still light years the most complete footballer in the world.
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He joined a team that has been able to do whatever they want to build a team that no other team would be allowed to build while the league looks the other way so let's not pretend this is solely down to Messi's on field presence. Truly outstanding player that he is, obviously.
 
Hoof the ball said:
That being said, it's relative also. He joined a team that was rock bottom of the MLS. Not just one of the worst. Definitively the worst. His influence on that team is a hell of an achievement.
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Adding Busquets, Alba and Suarez also play a role. ;) But yes, it is awesome to still see him play great and enjoy it.
 
Acrobat7 said:
Adding Busquets, Alba and Suarez also play a role. ;) But yes, it is awesome to still see him play great and enjoy it.
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That's undoubtedly true, however, in counter point, those are very old players and it's a league that's very transition heavy with an emphasis on quick breaks. You couple that with Inter Miami having some genuinely horrific defenders and a very poor squad depth when he joined, plus factor in that they concede so many chances every single game (one of the highest in the league), it's still a tremendous achievement.

In addition, their record with and without Messi is significantly different. Even with Alba, Busquets and Suarez.
 
Hoof the ball said:
That's undoubtedly true, however, in counter point, those are very old players and it's a league that's very transition heavy with an emphasis on quick breaks. You couple that with Inter Miami having some genuinely horrific defenders and a very poor squad depth when he joined, plus factor in that they concede so many chances every single game (one of the highest in the league), it's still a tremendous achievement.

In addition, their record with and without Messi is significantly different. Even with Alba, Busquets and Suarez.
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Suarez has certainly been the best addition apart from Messi.
 
Gehrman said:
According to Opta its currently the 9th strongest league in world. Rougly around the English Championship level and Danish Superliga. So yeah pretty terrible.
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9th??? That's crazy.

I want what whoever made that list is smoking.

I wouldn't even have it in the top 20.
 
Nonameboy said:
9th??? That's crazy.

I want what whoever made that list is smoking.

I wouldn't even have it in the top 20.
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Depending on the criteria their lowest rated leagues in top-20 are Serie B, Swiss league, Turkish (I'm genuinely surprised that they're that low), 2nd Bundesliga or 2nd BL, Polish, Russian (I think they should be a bit higher but no European football obviously influences their standings plus the league had lost a lot of good players) and Japanese J1 League.

MLS are bad but they're not worse than Swiss or Japanese leagues, especially with Messi elevating the average level just by his presence. They don't seem to know how to defend though, judging by what I've seen of MLS teams... which, admittedly, isn't all that much.
 
Sky1981 said:
To think people claimed Maradona is the best ever period.

Just because he did it once with Napoli
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Reducing Maradona to just that it's way more ridiculuos.
Anyway the real ridiculous thing it's to think that at a certain point or better said level pof player, it's sthg as subjective as liking more or less one or another, it becomes nothing more than a prefference. The GOAT thing is silly as feck, even thougth of course we can have arguments or better said reasosn why we think certain players it's better, or we like more one than other.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
To be fair, players are now very good till older than they used to be. And he’s playing in a poor league.
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To be fair, that's actually not fair, it's not easy feat to play at Messi's level at that age even if fitness it's better nowadays.
 
Zehner said:
I think when fit he still is the best in the world because his technique and football IQ is unrivalled. The issue is staying fit when playing in a top 4 league, UCL football and international games. The older you get, the longer the recovery times.

Miami is ideal for him in that sense. If he joins Rosario and plays in the Copa Libertadores (do they?) it could become more difficult for him.
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Exactly, a team must respect his age and understand what he can deliver and what not and play in consequence...today the biggest issue is his recovery time, like it happened in the last Copa...he wasn't fit since day one, later with some fouls he got battered and he ended not delivering as usual.
 
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MLS is really bad. Like really bad. And I actually like the mls. But let’s be real. He Can probably play until he’s 50.
 
harms said:
Depending on the criteria their lowest rated leagues in top-20 are Serie B, Swiss league, Turkish (I'm genuinely surprised that they're that low), 2nd Bundesliga or 2nd BL, Polish, Russian (I think they should be a bit higher but no European football obviously influences their standings plus the league had lost a lot of good players) and Japanese J1 League.

MLS are bad but they're not worse than Swiss or Japanese leagues, especially with Messi elevating the average level just by his presence. They don't seem to know how to defend though, judging by what I've seen of MLS teams... which, admittedly, isn't all that much.
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Please watch some Japanese league matches.
 
I genuinely don't see how you can actually make a case for anyone else being the Greatest of all time.
 
FriedClams said:
I genuinely don't see how you can actually make a case for anyone else being the Greatest of all time.
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Because we as people can preffer other players that also were trully off the charts specimens, or what I like to call in some sort of hiperbole: geniuses.

Later the enviroments of each player (with all that involves), the style, the personalities, the achievements will play its part, in preffering one above another, but at a certain point some players are so special that any Cruyff, Messi, Pele, Maradona, etc can rightfully claim to be one of the best ever. Or more importantly, one of the best of their respect periods and mainly OUR personal best. We just have to be respectful with all those special players, always.

I find it more "bizarre" the lengths people sometimes goes in comparisons between a Ribery vs a Di maria, vs a Roben, etc...and those "who is a World Class player" threads. I mean that between extremely Elite or even phenom players, there isn't a major distance in talent between them. Also I have the same odd feeling when someone says a Messi can be 3 Cruyffs, or Pele its 3 times Maradona, etc., like if that was even posible.
 
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Fobal said:
Because we as people can preffer other players that also were trully off the charts spceimen, or what I like to call in some sort of hiperbole: geniuses.

Later the enviroments of each player (with all that involves), the style, the personalities, the achievments will play its part, in preffering one above another, but at a certain point some players are so special that any Cruyff, Messi, Pele, Maradona, etc can rightfully claim be one of the best ever. Or more importantly, one of the best of their respect periods and mainly OUR personal best. We just have to respectful with all those special players, always.

I find it more "bizarre" the lengths people sometimes goes in comparisons between a Ribery vs a Di maria, vs a Roben, etc...and those World Class threads. I mean that between extremely Elite or even phenom players, there isn't a major distance in talent between them. On the other hand the same odd feeling I have when someone says a Messi can be 3 Cruyffs, a Pele its 3 times Maradona, etc., like if that was even posible.
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He just has so many records. Which all of those players had a chance to attain, but didn't. Frankly I find the comparisons to Maradona the most baffling, for me Messi is far superior.
 
FriedClams said:
He just has so many records. Which all of those players had a chance to attain, but didn't. Frankly I find the comparisons to Maradona the most baffling, for me Messi is far superior.
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That's because Maradona's career is contextualised. If you ask me Messi, Pele and Maradona had about the same ability, but Messi and Pelé had greater longevity and consistency which gives them an edge. Since i rate the modern era higher that gives Messi an edge for me.
 
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FriedClams said:
He just has so many records. Which all of those players had a chance to attain, but didn't. Frankly I find the comparisons to Maradona the most baffling, for me Messi is far superior.
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But football ain't just about records.

That is sthg that I feel got even worse in late years. Stats were always extremely important, but the stats ubber driven narrative lately it goes to far, I feel globalization as a whole, the need of Agendas for Clubs and their boys with the whole CR vs Messi thing had a lot to with it, it's an angle that would certainly benefit the one his game it's more revolved about those.

It just takes watching Maradona play to realize that he trully was sthg else, I don't need him to score a 1000 goals (not that his stats were even remotely bad).

I can get that someone can tell me that a certain God of this game had a better carreer in terms of stats and titles and I won't find it a bad approach, but at the same time I will find it silly if someone thinks that Messi it's sthg like 3 Maradonas because of those.

The thing with periods, eras, I just believe we have to respect every Genius of this game in their own period, later we can find differences on every era of the game, that we can talk about without never forgetting taht there are always two sides of a coin on amost every fact we can find to sostein a our very own arguments and that mostly each side does not nulify the other.
Of course with any sport athletes evolve, some things are done faster, with more stamina, but with a game as complicated as football and with this off the charts players, it would be extremely disrepectful if we think that a Di Stefano equivalent today would be just a merely Pro footballer.
At the end of the day, it just silly to not give proper respect or automatically give always the nod for the newest jewell.

Let's just imagine that Lamile continues his trajectory, playing EXACTLY like he has done till today and he does it for 25 years obliterating every Messi record, I'll still find Messi a better footballer with better atributes than current Yamile. Or even Mbappe, if he ends winning everything, another WC, multiple CLs, scoring galore, I still can preffer Diego, Zico, Platini, I wouldn't find it even that hard to think that way. I still remember like after Ziozu's 98WC, there was a tsunami of opnions placing him way above Platini, till thse day I find Michel a better player than Zizou overall, he just "couldn't give" France that much needed WC.
 
Fobal said:
But football ain't just about records.

That is sthg that I feel got even worse in late years. Stats were always extremely important, but the stats ubber driven narrative lately it goes to far, I feel globalization as a whole, the need of Agendas for Clubs and their boys with the whole CR vs Messi thing had a lot to with it, it's an angle that would certainly benefit the one his game it's more revolved about those.

It just takes watching Maradona play to realize that he trully was sthg else, I don't need him to score a 1000 goals (not that his stats were even remotely bad).

I can get that someone can tell me that a certain God of this game had a better carreer in terms of stats and titles and I won't find it a bad approach, but at the same time I will find it silly if someone thinks that Messi it's sthg like 3 Maradonas because of those.

The thing with periods, eras, I just believe we have to respect every Genius of this game in their own period, later we can find differences on every era of the game, that we can talk about without never forgetting taht there are always two sides of a coin on amost every fact we can find to sostein a our very own arguments and that mostly each side does not nulify the other.
Of course with any sport athletes evolve, some things are done faster, with more stamina, but with a game as complicated as football and with this off the charts players, it would be extremely disrepectful if we think that a Di Stefano equivalent today would be just a merely Pro footballer.
At the end of the day, it just silly to not give proper respect or automatically give always the nod for the newest jewell.

Let's just imagine that Lamile continues his trajectory, playing EXACTLY like he has done till today and he does it for 25 years obliterating every Messi record, I'll still find Messi a better footballer with better atributes than current Yamile. Or even Mbappe, if he ends winning everything, another WC, multiple CLs, scoring galore, I still can preffer Diego, Zico, Platini, I wouldn't find it even that hard to think that way. I still remember like after Ziozu's 98WC, there was a tsunami of opnions placing him way above Platini, till thse day I find Michel a better player than Zizou overall, he just "couldn't give" France that much needed WC.
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The thing about Messi v Maradona thing is that pretty much everything that made Maradona special as a player, Messi is better at. And he won far, far more, whilst having vastly superior stats.
 
FriedClams said:
The thing about Messi v Maradona thing is that pretty much everything that made Maradona special as a player, Messi is better at. And he won far, far more, whilst having vastly superior stats.
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Actually Messi is more like Zico, Best or even Cruyff. Of course he has some Diego in him, like Diego had some Sivori in him, but even with similarities, they had their differences.

There is a lot of context regarding stats, from roles, injuries, timing etc etc that would always affect the end result, but for instance even without entering in such terrain, there was an artistry and level of touch, passing, strike in Diego that pretty much can be considered more talented than anyone, Messi included.
Of course we are not talking about huge gaps, but there was a what we can call a relationshipo with the ball with Diego that was in my view at moments beyond surreall.

And I'm not talking about malabarism, tricks and stuff, that sometimes are done to even disguise the lack of capability to resolve a play with more speed, assertion and better reading and management of time and space, since it's not always a display of more talent (pretty common misconception with certain plays that Ney, RG, Djalminha, Di Maria, or even "lesser names" like Okocha, Pastore, etc when they pull out some fantastic and enjoyable magic.
I'm, talking about all that entertaining stuff, combine with an assertion and off the charts level of understanding/reading, timing and manage of time and space. All this in combination with a very in your face (and not pour le galeire or sellfish apporach) character and leadership made him a very very special player and so enjoyable to watch.

BTW I'm not in the Diego did it all alone, Diego did it with the worse teams, etc..so that it's more significant, or that his era was way better or let's say way harder...nope I do not endorse any view as taxative as that (nor the opposite version to all those). Yet it has to be take in account how his carreer developed to understand an see how that also affected his numbers, even his njuries and off the pitch affairs.
 
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Fobal said:
Actually Messi is more like Zico, Best or even Cruyff. Of course he has some Diego in him, like Diego had some Sivori in him, but even with similarities, they had their differences.

There is a lot of context regarding stats, from roles, injuries, timing etc etc that would always affect the end result, but for instance even without entering in such terrain, there was an artistry and level of touch, passing, strike in Diego that pretty much can be considered more talented than anyone, Messi included.
Of course we are not talking about huge gaps, but there was a what we can call a relationshipo with the ball with Diego that was in my view at moments, was beyond surreall.

And I'm not talking about malabarism, tricks and stuff, that sometimes are done to even disguise the lack of capability to resolve a play with more speed, assertion and better reading and management of time and space, since it's not always a display of more talent (pretty common misconception with certain plays that Ney, RG, Djalminha, Di Maria, or even "lesser names" like Okocha, Pastore, etc when they pull out some fantastic and enjoyable magic.
I'm, talking about all that entertaining stuff, combine with an assertion and off the charts level of understanding/reading, timing and manage of time and space. All this in combination with a very in your face (and not pour le galeire or sellfish apporach) character and leadership made him a very very special player and so enjoyable to watch.

BTW I'm not in the Diego did it all alone, Diego did it with the worse teams, etc..so that it's more significant, or that his era was way better or let's say way harder...nope I do not endorse any view as taxative as that (nor the opposite version to all those). Yet it has to be take in account how his carreer developed to understand an see how that also affected his numbers, even his njuries and off the pitch affairs.
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So much of what you have used to describe Diego could have been said about Leo.
 
FriedClams said:
So much of what you have used to describe Diego could have been said about Leo.
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Indeed, never said otherwise, but in some aspects Diego (for me) was even more talented. The only thing that I'm implying it's that if someone still preffers as the best ever Pele, Cruyff, Diego or even Di Stefano to name some usual suspects, I do not see sthg wrong with it.
 
FriedClams said:
The thing about Messi v Maradona thing is that pretty much everything that made Maradona special as a player, Messi is better at. And he won far, far more, whilst having vastly superior stats.
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Debatable.

The landscape of football back in Maradona's time was not favorable to attackers at all. As much as Messi got 'targeted' with hard tackles and such, Maradona had it much worse.

Having superior stats is irrelevant when Messi played on generally much better club teams and in a far more attacking era. Look at the goal tallies of the Serie A clubs in the 80s. Goals were very hard to come by.

There's barely anything between them in terms of ability with the ball.
 
Saw a stat that claimed Maradona was fouled almost 100 times more than anyone at World Cups. Messi was second.

You can't compare different eras. Pele played half his career when subs weren't allowed and red/yellow cards weren't a thing. He would be assaulted game by game but had to carry on. This is a different sport to the one we have now.
 
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