Di Maria was definitely a big miss, even with him not being at his best. I think their set up was OK, it's just that some of the players couldn't quite hit their top level. They certainly improved defensively after the group stages, so it was all OK on that front. On the counter-attack - in theory - having Lavezzi, Aguero, Di Maria and Messi coming at you sounds frightening. It just didn't quite work out.
Messi at the World Cup - No Ronaldo comparisons!
- Thread starter amolbhatia50k
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he scored the goals needed for argentina to advance to the next stage, he set the goal for higuain against belgium and he assisted di maria against swizerland
if that´s not driving argentina to the world cup final, then i don't know what is
Maradona is told to have driven argentina to 1990 world cup final only because he assisted canigia against brazil -eight final game-
messi in 2014 did a lot more than maradona in 1990
Go and have a lie down and stop talking crap.
A great team to shine? In Vilanova's season he was as close to winning that title on his own as any player I've seen in a top league. Even with the decline of Xavi, their wretched defence etc he still fired them to victory again and again. Barca's decline started at least 2 or 3 years before Messi's did.
If you think there's nothing wrong with him as a player you just haven't watched him much. I've watch him since he broke into that Barcelona team and there is something clearly wrong with him physically. I think sponsors, Barca and the AFA are keeping it on the down low or covering it up to meet certain obligations. But stroll at walking pace at crucial times in the game, struggling after an hour and puking on the pitch are not normal for him (except over the last 4 or 5 months).
But the counter argument to that is playing with so many good players and being the best of the lot proves his greatness. And from what i recall Pele played in some great Brazilian sides the 1970 squad is considered the best Brazilian team squad ever, as for Maradonna he played in very good sides too. Even though they have performed better at world cups they haven't performed as well as Messi on club level.
Good players don't play for rubbish teams, you can't hold that against any player.
I have honestly no clue as to whether messi was fit or not. I didn't see much difference in his performances at this world cup to his performances for barca this season (ie his all-round play and dribbling not as good as it used to be, but he was still capable of producing moments of individual brilliance to win matches as well as finishing his chances well). He still had a great performance vs Madrid in their classico win at the bernebeu and nobody mentioned his fitness then. Surely 7 months of football and training would be enough to build up your fitness and stamina. Unless by fitness you are saying that he is injured, if which that is the case I don't know if he is or not but normally when a big player is injured you would hear about it. I guess if he was injured he will miss pre-season and maybe a few matches at the start of the season.
I think Sabella just about did the right thing. Their defence wasn't good enough to play an open attacking game imo, so by keeping it very compact they really did look fairly solid back there and I think he made the right call. It's just unfortunate the one player he had to get them up the park (Di Maria) ended up injured.
I agree that Messi shouldn't have won the player of the tournament but he also was far from having a shit WC.
There has always been a certain part of fans that seem to take any bad game as a sign that he isn't as good as people made him out to be. I think it's true that Messi is going through a weaker phase, probably the first real crisis of his career, but suggesting that he is done or even that he was always overrated is just stupid and I don't really see what these people getting out of belittling such a great player.
I personally think don't think Messi will have as good of a legacy as people think now - The guy is only 26/27 and if there is a decline and doesn't retire until he's 35/36 people will remember this deteriorating player more so than what he was in his prime, Giggs was a victim of this.
Messi's 4 Ballon d'or's aswell, 2 of those he shouldn't have won, 1 occasion even saying that himself. There is a lot of love of him within FIFA and football in general and he gets votes/awards just on shear merit and that's what annoys some people (certainly me), hence him winning the World Cups best player - Everyone knows he wasn't, but it will be one of those in 3 years time, where you go "Messi had a shite World Cup 2014" and you'll get some people going "shite World Cup, yet player of the tournament"
And that's what Messi is to me I'm afraid, a pretender great in comparison Maradona/Pele due to peoples love of him and giving him votes/awards on shear merit when he realty should be nowhere near their legacy.
Giggs never even came close to reaching a level that Messi's reached, though. He's had a poor few months (fitness related, IMO) and hopefully that gets sorted. Talk of a mega decline is way too much.
I think he deserved all 4 Ballon d'Or's because he was the best player in the world each time and his performances at club level were unparalleled. The argument for Xavi or Sneijder or whoever else is that they had a great world cup. Is that enough? Should James Rodriguez or Thomas Muller win the next one?
Messi a pretender? If you say so! Winning awards on merit means it was deserved, btw, so you're correct!
they are still butthurt for what he did against us in those two CL finals
Put Cristiano (I bring him up because he's the 2nd best player in the world and an all time great in his own right) on an average team. Do you think he'll look anywhere near as good as he does for Real Madrid or Manchester United? In fact, Portugal are pretty average. How did his World Cup go, again? I need reminded...
It genuinely infuriates me that some believe playing for a great club diminishes your abilities somewhat. It's utter nonsense. Great player playing for great club shocker! You think if Pele or Maradona were playing today they'd be plying their trade for Stoke City or Barcelona, Bayern, Madrid etc.
Or maybe it's just football and people just have different opinions just as with everything in life?
This.
FFS marcosOn topic - a ton of shit being posted about Messi in this thread. My god
He needs a good team to shine? LOLZ. He's not better then Cristiano Ronaldo? Huh? Feck me.
so your opinion is that messi played for a great side, while maradona, pele and cruyff didnt?
to say that you have a different opinion is to say that you have an "opinion", but that´s not right, what you stated is not an opinion, is "bullshit" that comes from a hurted person
I'm not saying that at all, of course great players play in great sides, i said him playing the Barcelona side and the football they played made Messi look better than what he is.
And reason i say and think that is because he's never (even at his best) looked the best player in the world playing for Argentina, why?
I'm sorry but Messi playing for Argentina asks more questions than it answers about who he is as a player and makes you question how he would do at a United/Milan/Chelsea/Arsenalor Bayern. Would he still be the same player Barcelona saw if he played in these great sides?
Would people look at him in these sides and say "this guy is better than Pele and Maradona?"
Sneijder deserved it in 2009-2010 after being the best player in the treble winning Inter Milan side that season, it shouldn't have even been close.
I would bet he would score a ton load of goals, i agree he wasn't great for Argentina at the start of his career but in WC qualifying he was top scorer and as others have mentioned he wasn't rubbish in the world cup.
Even with Barca in decline and looking so disjointed plus his injury at the start of the season he still managed more goals than games.
Fair point about Cristiano playing through injury for his team. The only thing I'd say is that Messi has been playing through injury for Barcelona for a while now too, it's not just one of them who is doing it. I think it was ridiculously shortsighted of both clubs to force their star men to play through the pain and we've started to see the effects on both. In their own way they've both been below their best during 2014 as the injuries add up and yet they've still performed better than most other players around.
I think it's about time both had the long rest they need to completely recover from any lingering fitness problems.
i see. so being the second historic goaler for argentina -five goals behind batistuta- doesnt tell you different?
the fact that since sabella started coaching argentina, messi scored 25 goals in 28 games (.89 goals a game) doesnt tell you different?
why don't you just learn a little before talking shit?
Best player in the world?
Anything but 'yes' you agree with me and with that, confused how you can say my "argument is absurd"
If he came here i have no doubt in my mind he would be the best player in the world.
Even after the world cup i still think he's the best player in the world.
I didn't know messi was inured. Out of interest what injury does messi have and when did he get it? I know he got injured in 2013 but he came back in January and has been playing ever since as far as I remember. I also don't remember him being taken off matches early like Ronaldo was so that is another reason that I assumed he was not injured. Fair play to him for playing through injury if that is the case.
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he was the best player in the world for argentina in the qualifying stages
it's pretty obvious that you didnt watch those games
You sidestepped the question, is Messi playing for Argentina the best player in the world?
I haven't. I said Messi even after the world cup is the best.
So the criteria for being the best player is to perform for your country now? Which incidentally Messi has been doing over the last 2 years.
Sneijder's club had a better season than Messi's. Sneijder himself didn't perform to a higher level than Messi did.
I can see the argument for Sneijder but I can also see the other side of the coin too.
you sidestepped my answer
he was the best player in the world during argentina qualifiers
he also was the best player in the world when argentina lost the copa america against brazil in 2007
to shine he needs a coach that plays in a way that suits him,
i know, i know, you will say something stupid like "see? he needs the team to play for him", totally disregarding that the same applies to the rest of the all time greats
Not sure if he's been injured since he returned in January, as far as I remember he has been fine in terms of proper injuries since then. What I mean is that in 2013 Messi went through what Cristiano Ronaldo went through in 2014 in terms of rushing back from injuries, playing despite not being fully fit etc. and I think it's had a huge knock-on effect. I'm not sure you can recover instantly from a few serious muscle injuries (or knee injuries in Cristiano's case). Injuries far from explain all of Messi's form issues but I'd say a part of it comes from them - the hesitation to break into sprints that he'd normally not think twice about etc, possibly even losing a yard of pace though I'm not as convinced about that as others are.
Cristiano is naturally more athletic than Messi so perhaps he won't suffer next season but I think it's fair to say there's a possibility he'll still be a bit limited going into next season.
No we are talking about how Messi would perform for outside Barcelona, he's never done that and probably never will, so the only other way you can judge is how he is in another team and that's Argentina and Messi playing for Argentina as never looked like the best player in the world.
Certainly not looked like he belongs in a tier alongside Pele/Maradona.
So again how is my argument absurd? Most people would agree with me on that if they are being truthful.
I'm not even going to try have a debate with a biased Argentinian.
well, a point for me, because i'm trying to have a debate with a biased english
But then you say Maradonna is better when he only had one 'world class' world cup.
The way you are judging him is too simplistic, there are too many variables when playing for the national team e.g managers, tactics, compatibility with players, no. of games. Despite this he has performed for Argentina, was top scorer in qualifying and without his goals or assists, like it or not Argentina would not have got to the final, it's a fact.
Rooney was top scorer for England qualifying, top scorer in Europe i believe qualifying for the Euro's.
Still doesn't stop people questioning his performances for England - In short, stop looking at stats and judge with your eyes, most peoples eyeballs see things the same way i do and that is there's always been questions marks on Messi in an Argentinian shirt and was a bystander at the World Cup, certainly in the knockout stages.
you keep talking about him like it was only Guardiola's Barcelona that he played for. he kept breaking records for "other" Barcelona too, which often didn't even have a manager and quite a few people were convinced they declined. we even have a thread about that here. they were beaten by Madrid 3 or 4 times that season and they weren't any better in champions league. they struggled against Milan, they struggled against PSG and I don't even have to mention what happened against Bayern. Busquets, Iniesta and Xavi all played in those games, the same players who also got badly beaten by Brazil in confederations cup in the same season. so, even though they "declined", Messi basically won them la liga and his closest follower was Villa with 10 (!!!) goals. how about that?
I don't know if I'm older than you but I watched the WC's of 86 and 90 and Maradona was an unbeliever player and leader, defenses always in panic when Maradona had the ball but that final playing only with 9 players and losing 1-0 to Germany I think was a great feat by the team. I think to compare players are no sense and if we do then Maradona is for me above any other player.
Doesn't matter because he hasn't won anything for Argentina.
The actual level performed was similar but the service and importance in games on Sneijder's side was higher, in my opinion. I get your point about Inter doing better than Barca but just last season Munich did better than Real but Ronaldo won the award ahead of Ribery. Messi did have a good season, but that's because he's a ridiculously talented player.
i saw maradona live more times than you saw him on tv, i´ve saw him play for argentinos juniors, boca, argentina, racing, newels and boca again, he was great but only in the teams were he was surrounded by good players, he managed to succeed, in fact, even in boca, playing alongside with Killy Gonzalez, Veron, Cannigia and with Bilardo as a coach, he didnt make it, he failed misserably in Barcelona and we all know that he won two serie "A" championships in the seven years he was there
in fact, it took him three years to win the first "scudetto"
in 1986 maradona was wonderfull, but he didnt play alone, the fact that many europeans say that, only means how little they know or knew about argentinian football
in 1990 he was in one foot and he managed to give a great assist to cannigia against brazil in the eightfinals, but that was all he did
in fact he could have cost us qualifying for the next round because of his stupid handball against USSR and he missed his penalty in the shootout against yugoeslavia
you can defend Maradona all you want, but messi is the best player i´ve seen
only an olimpic gold medal and an under 21 world cup
And rightly so, IMO.