[spiriticon]

Tony Martial and Phil Jones would be proud of his injury record

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Tony Martial and Phil Jones would be proud of his injury record

He's averaged 33 league games per season, over the previous 5 seasons. Can't be arsed checking but that's probably better than every player in our squad who isn't Bruno Fernandes and compares favourably with the vast majority of footballers at any PL cliub.

 

[SER19]

Eh? He's averaged 35 league games per season, over the previous 5 seasons.

Just a 92% appearance rate then. Sicknote

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just a 92% appearance rate then. Sicknote

Actually, I made a mess of the maths. Average is actually "only" 33 league appearances per season.

 

[AltiUn]

If Frank Lampard is mystified about how ETH intends to get the best out of Mason Mount then I'd consider that a ringing endorsement of the signing. I suspect Frank Lampard is mystified about how to tie his shoe laces every morning. Based on what we've seen from Mount at United so far it's pretty obvious that ETH has no intention of playing him in deeper areas. Although it's not surprising that Fwank didn't pick up on this, as it's very much in keeping with his tactical acumen as a manager so far.

Yeah but Lampard's right to be mystified because Ten Hag has got absolutely nothing out of Mount so far.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah but Lampard's right to be mystified because Ten Hag has got absolutely nothing out of Mount so far.

In the grand total of how many appearances?

No as though there aren't loads of examples of players at United (and other clubs) who take a dozen games or more to start to show why the manager signed them. Or even, god forbid., a whole season.

 

[AltiUn]

In the grand total of how many appearances?

No as though there aren't loads of examples of players at United (and other clubs) who take a dozen games or more to start to show why the manager signed them. Or even, god forbid., a whole season.

Yeah, but how many recently have gone on to be fantastic after a slow start for United specifically? I think you're going to have to go all the way back to De Gea before you found one of our players who overcame a slow start. Mason Mount isn't some unknown entity, he's been in the league for years, we've known what he's about for years. Fair enough if you were really impressed with him at Chelsea, I never have been.

Just a 92% appearance rate then. Sicknote

Actually, I made a mess of the maths. Average is actually "only" 33 league appearances per season.

Since the start of 22/23 up until January of this season he's been available for 58.75% of his matches. Doesn't look quite so good now, does it?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Since the start of 22/23 up until January of this season he's been available for 58.75% of his matches. Doesn't look quite so good now, does it?

That's shocking to be fair. And this season doesn't bode well for the future regarding availability.

 

[luke511]

In the grand total of how many appearances?

No as though there aren't loads of examples of players at United (and other clubs) who take a dozen games or more to start to show why the manager signed them. Or even, god forbid., a whole season.

Are you suggesting the club made the right decision to sign him? Or just being a bit contentious?

 

[bosnian_red]

If Frank Lampard is mystified about how ETH intends to get the best out of Mason Mount then I'd consider that a ringing endorsement of the signing. I suspect Frank Lampard is mystified about how to tie his shoe laces every morning. Based on what we've seen from Mount at United so far it's pretty obvious that ETH has no intention of playing him in deeper areas. Although it's not surprising that Fwank didn't pick up on this, as it's very much in keeping with his tactical acumen as a manager so far.

He mentioned that it seemed like that was the initial idea but that it seemed like we might move away from that given how it worked (which I'd agree with...). A double #10 ahead of just 1 midfielder, with those personnel, I agree with him. It's just not balanced.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yeah, but how many recently have gone on to be fantastic after a slow start for United specifically? I think you're going to have to go all the way back to De Gea before you found one of our players who overcame a slow start. Mason Mount isn't some unknown entity, he's been in the league for years, we've known what he's about for years. Fair enough if you were really impressed with him at Chelsea, I never have been.

How many signings over the last decade have gone on to be fantastic for United, full stop?

Since the start of 22/23 up until January of this season he's been available for 58.75% of his matches. Doesn't look quite so good now, does it?

There's a world of difference between players who have a rocky season or two with injuries and career sick notes like Martial and Jones. Especially when these players have already established an excellent injury record going back several years. Which was my point.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Are you suggesting the club made the right decision to sign him? Or just being a bit contentious?

I'm suggesting that maybe it's a bit too soon to write him off as a bad signing.

Which shouldn't really be an outrageous suggestion, should it?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He mentioned that it seemed like that was the initial idea but that it seemed like we might move away from that given how it worked (which I'd agree with...). A double #10 ahead of just 1 midfielder, with those personnel, I agree with him. It's just not balanced.

Yet somehow works for the three best teams in the league...

 

[bosnian_red]

Yeah, but how many recently have gone on to be fantastic after a slow start for United specifically? I think you're going to have to go all the way back to De Gea before you found one of our players who overcame a slow start. Mason Mount isn't some unknown entity, he's been in the league for years, we've known what he's about for years. Fair enough if you were really impressed with him at Chelsea, I never have been.


Since the start of 22/23 up until January of this season he's been available for 58.75% of his matches. Doesn't look quite so good now, does it?

As Pogue said, it's definitely too early to write him off as a sick note or just a rocky period. Trending in the wrong direction but I'd give it more than 1.5 seasons before we call him a crock that can't be fixed.

Saying that, just another layer to how dumb the signing was. He's only played as a 10, and we have Bruno there as captain. He was available on a free in a year. He had recent injury risks. If you want him actually, wait a year FFS.

 

[Shane88]

Start him for 10 games in Bruno's spot. Season is shagged anyway, what do we have to lose?

 

[bosnian_red]

Yet somehow works for the three best teams in the league...

Does it??? Havertz in there has upset the balance for Arsenal for sure. He doesn't add much. They are much better out of possession and have much more dynamic players anyway, but I still wouldn't say it works, and Arteta puts jorginho in next to Rice when they aren't expected to dominate.

City is different, unique, and have Bernardo Silva, De Bruyne and Rodri to be the midfield 3. I wouldn't say something that works for Pep to be something that we can copy, even ignoring talent level like that which we can't match.

Liverpool don't use 2 #10's? They have Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, gravenberch, Jones and none of them are #10's. Harvey Elliott and Gakpo are the closest things to a 10 that they use in there.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Does it??? Havertz in there has upset the balance for Arsenal for sure. He doesn't add much. They are much better out of possession and have much more dynamic players anyway, but I still wouldn't say it works, and Arteta puts jorginho in next to Rice when they aren't expected to dominate.

City is different, unique, and have Bernardo Silva, De Bruyne and Rodri to be the midfield 3. I wouldn't say something that works for Pep to be something that we can copy, even ignoring talent level like that which we can't match.

Liverpool don't use 2 #10's? They have Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, gravenberch, Jones and none of them are #10's. Harvey Elliott and Gakpo are the closest things to a 10 that they use in there.

All three of those teams play with one deep lying CM and two in more advanced roles. Loads of other teams do the same. Loads of other teams have always done the same. The idea that ETH is making some radically stupid decision by daring to set his team up with just one defensive midfielder is definitely one of the more annoying tropes of an extremely annoying season.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

He mentioned that it seemed like that was the initial idea but that it seemed like we might move away from that given how it worked (which I'd agree with...). A double #10 ahead of just 1 midfielder, with those personnel, I agree with him. It's just not balanced.

I think if you want the two #10s then the only way to do it is something like the below (Which might not be the worst thing considering how ineffectual our wingers are and our constant links to players like Frimpong:

Onana
Varane Martinez Shaw
Dalot ______Casemiro______Malacia
Bruno Mount
Rashford______Hojlund


​

 

[luke511]

I'm suggesting that maybe it's a bit too soon to write him off as a bad signing.

Which shouldn't really be an outrageous suggestion, should it?

Fair enough. It’s more the factors around the signing that are baffling, that should’ve forced us well away from signing him.

- He’d just had the worst season of his career, out of form and injured.

- One year left on his contract, we had 3 bids rejected including a final take it or leave it offer at £50 million, we still end up paying £55 million on the fourth offer. A huge display of weakness in negotiation.

- In dire need of talented midfielders, yet we sign a 10/wide forward as our only permanent midfield signing. A decision that has caused utter chaos this season.

- We strengthen a league rival by giving them a huge boost for FFP.

- We offer him a huge contract around £250,000 a week, whilst uncontested at the high asking price.

Unsurprisingly, he’s still out of form and injured, we still have a huge hole in midfield and we’ve blown millions. He could still become a useful player, but it’s fair to say it was a terrible signing all factors considered.

 

[SER19]

Yeah, but how many recently have gone on to be fantastic after a slow start for United specifically? I think you're going to have to go all the way back to De Gea before you found one of our players who overcame a slow start. Mason Mount isn't some unknown entity, he's been in the league for years, we've known what he's about for years. Fair enough if you were really impressed with him at Chelsea, I never have been.


Since the start of 22/23 up until January of this season he's been available for 58.75% of his matches. Doesn't look quite so good now, does it?

Obvioulsy its a concern, jokes aside. But he had one injury last season with chelsea, some pelvic thing. Whatever mystery injury is keeping him out at the moment is a concern, but overall, unless this persists, we're nowhere near the likes of martial or jones. If we are, then every player with a long term injury has to be considered the same.

 

[DWelbz19]

Does it??? Havertz in there has upset the balance for Arsenal for sure. He doesn't add much. They are much better out of possession and have much more dynamic players anyway, but I still wouldn't say it works, and Arteta puts jorginho in next to Rice when they aren't expected to dominate.

City is different, unique, and have Bernardo Silva, De Bruyne and Rodri to be the midfield 3. I wouldn't say something that works for Pep to be something that we can copy, even ignoring talent level like that which we can't match.

Liverpool don't use 2 #10's? They have Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, gravenberch, Jones and none of them are #10's. Harvey Elliott and Gakpo are the closest things to a 10 that they use in there.

It's like people just see names on a sheet and don't actually look at the player profiles. A midfield with one defensive midfield and two attacking central midfielders can work. Obviously. (City are truly the only one who do it, really) But the strengths and weaknesses of our midfielders as a whole just do not fit it. And this adamant marriage to it that ten Hag has engaged in is a huge part of what has cost us this season and what I imagine will ultimately cost him his job.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's like people just see names on a sheet and don't actually look at the player profiles. A midfield with one defensive midfield and two attacking central midfielders can work. Obviously. (City are truly the only one who do it, really) But the strengths and weaknesses of our midfielders as a whole just do not fit it. And this adamant marriage to it that ten Hag has engaged in is a huge part of what has cost us this season and what I imagine will ultimately cost him his job.

But the whole point is, we don't know for certain if the vision ETH has for our midfield will work or not, as we've barely fecking seen it!

In the opening games of the season it definitely looked ropey but we've established that Casemiro is a slow starter at the best of times and Mount should obviously be allowed more than just a handful of appearances before everyone decides he won't work in this system either. Likewise Bruno, who also needs to get used to playing in a midfield with Mount and Casemiro. And all in front of a makeshift back four, behind a front three that has obvious issues of its own.

Now this system might not work at all. Time will tell. But it's crazy how so many backseat football managers (and fat Fwank Lampard) have decided that it absolutely, positively, cannot ever work based on the scantiest of evidence.

 

[spiriticon]

He's averaged 33 league games per season, over the previous 5 seasons. Can't be arsed checking but that's probably better than every player in our squad who isn't Bruno Fernandes and compares favourably with the vast majority of footballers at any PL cliub.

Aye but not this season though! Which is what really matters for us.

 

[bosnian_red]

All three of those teams play with one deep lying CM and two in more advanced roles. Loads of other teams do the same. Loads of other teams have always done the same. The idea that ETH is making some radically stupid decision by daring to set his team up with just one defensive midfielder is definitely one of the more annoying tropes of an extremely annoying season.

There's a (very big) difference between using 1 deep lying playmaker and 2 midfielders (8/10's), and 1 deep playmaker with straight up two #10's. That is the issue with our dumb setup. Every single pass map supports that he's in fact shoving two #10's and asking them to play like 10's, which supports what is blatantly obvious watching. It is also very different to what the actual competent teams do (where has asks the other midfielders to help control games and help in build up, rather than run forward and create an overload in attack).

 

[JB7]

But the whole point is, we don't know for certain if the vision ETH has for our midfield will work or not, as we've barely fecking seen it!

In the opening games of the season it definitely looked ropey but we've established that Casemiro is a slow starter at the best of times and Mount should obviously be allowed more than just a handful of appearances before everyone decides he won't work in this system either. Likewise Bruno, who also needs to get used to playing in a midfield with Mount and Casemiro. And all in front of a makeshift back four, behind a front three that has obvious issues of its own.

Now this system might not work at all. Time will tell. But it's crazy how so many backseat football managers (and fat Fwank Lampard) have decided that it absolutely, positively, cannot ever work based on the scantiest of evidence.

You've hit the nail on the head of the whole point really, we have barely seen the plan this season. With the injuries in critical areas we've dropped deeper and deeper as a team to the point where we are unrecognisable to what Ten Hag seemed to be building towards, both in what we saw on the pitch at times last season and very early this season. It's all very logical, players like Lindelof, Evans, Maguire need more protecting than Martinez and Varane, for different reasons including lesser mobility and put simply being inferior defenders who need more support. Which would be fine if the main protector of the centre backs in Casemiro hadn't been out as well, so we've had to try different options there such as Amrabat, McTominay and Eriksen, all of whom as nowhere near Casemiro's level or even Mainoo's level for that matter, so they need more support in protecting the defence, hence players like Fernandes and McTominay/Eriksen when they've played higher, have had to drop more than usual to help the deeper midfielder protect the defenders.

Couple those injuries with the injuries and dramatic losses of form we've seen to critical players in wide areas where you'd expect players to move us up the pitch to play football in areas we would rather play from, such as Rashford, Luke Shaw and particularly Antony who was very good at this last season (admittedly not great at much else), and it makes it far more difficult to get the ball into high areas, let alone retain possession when you're there.

As a result we've gone from aiming to be a team playing very high up the pitch - which caused us problem after problem in the Wolves game first game of the season in fairness - to a team that barely plays any higher up the pitch than we did last season. In the first month of the season we forced the highest number of turnovers high up the pitch of any team in the league, and I think had the second most shooting opportunities from those turnovers - I haven't looked recently but I'd imagine we are still high up that list of high turnovers because we do win a lot of ball high up the pitch, but we're doing so from a deeper base and with either lesser or out of form players, as such teams are having more success in splitting our press and keeping possession deep against us meaning our attacking players are having to work harder for the turnovers than they were earlier in the season, if that makes sense. This is particularly important with a player like Mount because cutting passing lines and pressing intelligently both centrally and in wide areas are surely the main reasons we signed him - I wouldn't have personally but we did so I'm going off the strengths given by his previous managers which would fit into what it looked like we were aiming for.

Long story short, we appeared to be aiming for a very specific type of football that only a small number of players in the squad were suited to and the majority of those players have spent time either injured or badly out of form this season and as such we've not even come close to seeing Ten Hag's plan, which is why I'm loathe to be overly critical of him at this stage although I do have concerns.

 

[CM]

But the whole point is, we don't know for certain if the vision ETH has for our midfield will work or not, as we've barely fecking seen it!

In the opening games of the season it definitely looked ropey but we've established that Casemiro is a slow starter at the best of times and Mount should obviously be allowed more than just a handful of appearances before everyone decides he won't work in this system either. Likewise Bruno, who also needs to get used to playing in a midfield with Mount and Casemiro. And all in front of a makeshift back four, behind a front three that has obvious issues of its own.

Now this system might not work at all. Time will tell. But it's crazy how so many backseat football managers (and fat Fwank Lampard) have decided that it absolutely, positively, cannot ever work based on the scantiest of evidence.

How much evidence do you need? They've started together 4 times, we lost 3 of them and the other one was the opener against Wolves where we were completely outplayed. I just can't buy into the idea that Ten Hag has a vision which will fix that with a magic wave of the wand. I felt that way in the summer when he had a lot more credit in the bank and I feel it even more strongly now after watching us play terribly for half a season.

Mason Mount isn't some unknown entity either. He's been playing in England for years - his strengths and limitations are clear. Stylistically those 3 players are not compatible to play together in the same midfield. It was obvious before he signed, it was obvious when we watched them play together and it's still obvious now.

I actually like Mount a lot more as a player than a lot of others on this forum but it was such a fundamentally flawed signing when we already had Bruno Fernandes playing a prominent role in this team. He barely misses a game either. The money should've been spent on a complementary signing unless the idea was to phase out or sell Fernandes. Even then, spending big on a number 10 was daft when a) Mount's contract was running down and b) most successful teams have moved away from operating with a number 10.

 

[lex talionis]

It's really hard to see any system where Bruno and Mount can be successful together. Both are good footballers, but where they naturally want to be in on the pitch is in the same space, making the same kinds of passes -- Bruno with more killer Hollywood balls, Mount with more surgical passing in the final third -- that no system can accommodate unless -- and this is an impossible unless -- we have a monster 6 in the mold of Keane or Carrick. Casemiro is a big name but his legs aren't what they once were and can't possibly cover the kind of ground that a pairing of Bruno and Mount would require that 6 to cover.

Another strange signing by ETH.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There's a (very big) difference between using 1 deep lying playmaker and 2 midfielders (8/10's), and 1 deep playmaker with straight up two #10's. That is the issue with our dumb setup. Every single pass map supports that he's in fact shoving two #10's and asking them to play like 10's, which supports what is blatantly obvious watching. It is also very different to what the actual competent teams do (where has asks the other midfielders to help control games and help in build up, rather than run forward and create an overload in attack).

There really isn’t. Not unless you’re getting absurdly hung up on the difference between “straight up #10” and and “8/10”.

And that difference doesn’t seem anything like big enough for the notion that ETH’s approach is a brainless shambles of an idea couldn’t ever ever work, in a season where Arsena, Liverpool and City are dominating with a formation that even the biggest ETH critic would have to admit is not dissimilar to ours.

 

[bosnian_red]

There really isn’t. Not unless you’re getting absurdly hung up on the difference between “straight up #10” and and “8/10”.

And that difference doesn’t seem anything like big enough for the notion that ETH’s approach is a brainless shambles of an idea couldn’t ever ever work, in a season where Arsenal and City are dominating with a formation that even the biggest ETH critic would have to admit is not dissimilar.

Of course there is. The profile of player matters. You can't just ask a #10 to play like a #8 most of the time, and it's the instructions of what he asks them to do. Bernardo Silva or kovacic are comfortable dropping deep surrounded by players, picking it up and progressing play and supporting rodri. Not only that, but Pep instructs him to support that role often.

Ten Hag doesn't instruct our midfield to play like this. Just look at this pass map vs Spurs, which was extremely similar with mctominay or mount in there in other games. Look at the spacings in the middle. It's a massive gap between the deep midfielder and the front 5 group.



Then compare that to Arsenal:


Obviously, it's a one off pass map and a lot impacts that. Not every one of their games look like that nor do ours always look like this. But we see this often enough with United where there is a huge disconnect between the midfield and attack, and in fact the 2 more advanced midfielders are more interested in attacking rather than midfielding. Personnel is part of that issue (which Mount doesn't address), but instruction is definitely part of it given its common with other players. Mount is a good player, but he's always been comfortable in attacking areas. Lampard being a shit manager doesn't mean he is shit at identifying what a midfielder is and what he suits. He actually got a good tune out of Mount and managed him both at Derby and Chelsea. Tuchel also got a good tune out of Mount, playing as one of the 2 #10's playing behind a CF in his system. Ten Hag is the one who is trying to play him in a role that he has barely played.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Start him for 10 games in Bruno's spot. Season is shagged anyway, what do we have to lose?

Games? And games we will lose if we do that considering Bruno is twice the player at number 10. Either find a way to play them both together or cut our losses on Mount because people asking for him to replace Bruno are the same people that wanted VDB to get chances.

 

[bosnian_red]

Start him for 10 games in Bruno's spot. Season is shagged anyway, what do we have to lose?

What's the point in that? Bruno is our captain, a much better player and actually stays fit every game.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

Games? And games we will lose if we do that considering Bruno is twice the player at number 10. Either find a way to play them both together or cut our losses on Mount because people asking for him to replace Bruno are the same people that wanted VDB to get chances.

Agreed. You saw the same thing 2-3 years ago with people saying we should drop Shaw for Telles, despite the latter showing next to nothing in a United shirt. Benching our best player isn't the answer.

There is a way to fit Bruno and Mount into the same midfield. I remember in the first half vs Spurs away in August (we were by far the better team and should've been at least 2 goals ahead by HT), where Mount was playing deeper than he was in the previous game vs Wolves, which led to more control in the midfield. Of course this also hinges on Casemiro being back to his best (I'm confident that he's not finished just yet). Hopefully we'll get to see a fully fit and firing midfield 3 of Casemiro-Mount-Bruno for a run of games before the end of the season. I love Mainoo but there's really no need to overplay him at his age.

 

[Solius]

Utd have tweeted an 'update' about his fitness that almost literally just says "Yeah he's working hard in the gym".

What a terrible signing this has been.

 

[Beachryan]

Do we even know what kind of injury he had? What has kept him out for this long ffs?

 

[Amar__]

Utd have tweeted an 'update' about his fitness that almost literally just says "Yeah he's working hard in the gym".

What a terrible signing this has been.

The fact that no one knows or even asks(why on earth is no one asking questions about him?!) where he is, tells you all you need to know about expectations that people have for him. Such an expensive signing, and he was pretty much free six months after, and no one even cares.

Fecking hell.

 

[Ali Dia]

Once we put you on over 250k a week you are free to be as shite (or as injured) as you like

 

[LawCharltonBest]

When he’s eventually back, is he worth trying as a striker?

As I recall he played very close to the striker in Chelsea’s Champions League winning season

 

[FerociousCorgis]

kinda funny at this point just the forgetfulness that mason mount was one of our big signings of the summer. I legit forget he is with us pretty much every week at this point and then remember when i see a squad list.

 

[Ekeke]

When he’s eventually back, is he worth trying as a striker?

As I recall he played very close to the striker in Chelsea’s Champions League winning season

No and no he didnt. He played the same position as Maddison/Bruno

 

[Irrational.]

He’s a Derby County level player, who we were duped into paying Real Madrid level money for. Forgot he was even here before this thread was bumped.