erikcred
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Why are none of the women at the club or high profile fans speaking up against the Qatari bid?
I find this astonishing!
Greenwood can't give them a highly paid job in the future.
Why are none of the women at the club or high profile fans speaking up against the Qatari bid?
I find this astonishing!
what we do know is that based on the wide variety of evidence seen by the CPS (including in my opinion what looks to be a "smoke and gun"), they still didn't press charges. To me that makes me think they have seen something that makes him appear less guilty than what we all saw and heard.
Adam just wont let this golden duck go. Milking it as much as he can.
People choose not to disclose details to avoid further scrutiny all the time. Not sure why this is so hard for English media and talkshow presents to understand.
If it meant the difference between the whole world thinking I’m a violent sex offender or not then yes, obviously. Is that even a serious question? When an audio clip has been widely shared that everyone assumes records me in the act of trying to rape and/or beat my partner, how on earth could it be a worse outcome for people to find that actually I’m just a bit kinky?!
They don’t even need to release whatever evidence they have for everyone to pore over. A simple explanation about why he’s been so badly misunderstood would have done. The absence of which makes it obvious that there is no simple explanation.
Being good at maths and going to Oxford doesn’t mean you’re intelligent in all aspects of life. Most people I know that are only going at math areHalf of our Tory government are Oxford educated. Would you call them intelligent?
Right but many clubs won't and don't care, there is already interest in him. As long as he's not guilty the audio and images won't matter to many, there are a lot of fans who think he's the victim of something. Football is not the moral sport that many try to make it out to be.He’s a free man but there is also an audio file in the public domain which alleged shows him attempting to rape someone. That audio has and always will be what makes his scenario different to other players.
An acquittal would have made a huge difference to Greenwood, from his perspective he needed to go to court and be found not guilty. If that audio didn’t exist he may not have even been suspended.
He’s also forgetting or ignoring that while we are a very public club, this is also a HR issue and Greenwood is protected by all the same employee rights and laws as anyone else in this country. If Greenwood and his partner have asked for the results of the internal investigation not to be published to the public then the club’s hands are tied.
I said a few days ago, I think the evidence they have is likely based on testimony from both Greenwood and his partner (the alleged victim). As he’s employed by United, I don’t see how they can just go “we don’t believe either of you” and make their own conclusions, especially if a criminal case already broke down because of that same reason.
The club are then in an impossible position. They have to trust their employee and his partners word even though the the public for the most part can see through it. It’s easy for the public to call Greenwood out on it, it’s very difficult for the club to without facing legal action from that employee and worse of all for the club, they can’t admit this position either, they just have to go with it.
He’s also forgetting or ignoring that while we are a very public club, this is also a HR issue and Greenwood is protected by all the same employee rights and laws as anyone else in this country. If Greenwood and his partner have asked for the results of the internal investigation not to be published to the public then the club’s hands are tied.
I said a few days ago, I think the evidence they have is likely based on testimony from both Greenwood and his partner (the alleged victim). As he’s employed by United, I don’t see how they can just go “we don’t believe either of you” and make their own conclusions, especially if a criminal case already broke down because of that same reason.
The club are then in an impossible position. They have to trust their employee and his partners word even though the the public for the most part can see through it. It’s easy for the public to call Greenwood out on it, it’s very difficult for the club to without facing legal action from that employee and worse of all for the club, they can’t admit this position either, they just have to go with it.
Being good at maths and going to Oxford doesn’t mean you’re intelligent in all aspects of life. Most people I know that are only going at math are
Right but many clubs won't and don't care, there is already interest in him. As long as he's not guilty the audio and images won't matter to many, there are a lot of fans who think he's the victim of something. Football is not the moral sport that many try to make it out to be.
Wasn't it reported that they talked to Greenwood and the girl's mum only?
Oh come on now. You are dead set that this is all down to the public that much? Because there's huge backlash against this decision too, and yet where's the U-turn again?
No because like it or not we do have a court system where the presumption of innocence sits with the defendant. (I’m not saying he’s innocent before that is brought back up!). It’s far too simplistic to look at rape statistics, see the low percentage of conviction and just decide well I’ll assume everyone is guilty. That attitude is genuinely scary and should be for the vast majority of people, because one allegation would be enough to ruin you. I’ve got no problem by the way with someone having an opinion. As with any debate, what I always take issue with is definitive statements and those that can’t be backed up fully.Isn't it the same the other way though? The other side are dragging just the same. This isn't the time for woe ist me thoughts. You and others are putting way too much blame on people who have voiced their opinion, as I've directly said to you in posts. I'm just as worried about this pass the buck culture we are in as I am this perceived "cancel culture" one.
Let's keep in mind who started this all and who made the decision. They've told us in their own words that.
I have and will continue to speak out against all forms of injustice. If I don’t, I have chosen the side of the tyrants.I bet you don't have such a cast iron view of the criminal system in all cases. It's also interesting at how you take that as black and white, but the statements from the "poor boy" telling you he made mistakes leading to this situation and Arnold telling you HE made the decision suddenly aren't.
Putting words in my mouth. Mason Greenwood was rightfully suspended at the time.But hey, you don't even seem to think he should have been suspended in the first place. So it's probably best to ignore your thoughts from here on out.
He’s also forgetting or ignoring that while we are a very public club, this is also a HR issue and Greenwood is protected by all the same employee rights and laws as anyone else in this country. If Greenwood and his partner have asked for the results of the internal investigation not to be published to the public then the club’s hands are tied.
I said a few days ago, I think the evidence they have is likely based on testimony from both Greenwood and his partner (the alleged victim). As he’s employed by United, I don’t see how they can just go “we don’t believe either of you” and make their own conclusions, especially if a criminal case already broke down because of that same reason.
The club are then in an impossible position. They have to trust their employee and his partners word even though the the public for the most part can see through it. It’s easy for the public to call Greenwood out on it, it’s very difficult for the club to without facing legal action from that employee and worse of all for the club, they can’t admit this position either, they just have to go with it.
The club didn't have to make any statement on whether or not he's innocent though. The sensible thing would have been to not mention anything and merely mention he was parting ways. As it was the statement raised far more questions than answers.
Her Mum, dad and other witnesses.Absolutely. Though I don't think he's forgetting that and saying any different, he's saying about the them expecting the people just to blindly accept it.
And I've said the same thing in here, it was incredibly stupid of them to just put out that initial statement and not expect blowback. Whether they could or couldn't talk specifics, surely they could have been on a charm offensive and explained more about why they wouldn't release any exact information. Because the general public by and large wouldn't immediately understand who's hands are tied and why.
He wasn't found "not guilty" though, that's the whole issue. There's a lot of grey area and that's enough for clubs to want away from the mess.
Let's not forget, he wasn't a stellar character up to this point with his behaviour either.
And I believe they said the mum didn't give them any information, only didn't refute his version of events.
The club didn't have to make any statement on whether or not he's innocent though. The sensible thing would have been to not mention anything and merely mention he was parting ways. As it was the statement raised far more questions than answers.
In amongst all of the acrimony in this thread I do believe everyone is united in their view that the statement was hot garbage and Arnold has made a complete mess of the handling of this issue.
I have and will continue to speak out against all forms of injustice. If I don’t, I have chosen the side of the tyrants.
Putting words in my mouth. Mason Greenwood was rightfully suspended at the time.
Do you remember Benjamin Mendy? He was tried and convicted of crimes in the court of public opinion. He was charged to court and lost his football career and at the end he was not found guilty over the case that stole his career. Now my question is what will then happen to the persons that made him lose his career?
I think public pressure plays a bigger role in modern society than it should. It’s why in the vast majority of cases it’s much better for justice to be served in a legal setting, outside of the public eye. Also as you’ve clearly alluded to it’s not just public opinion on boards like this, it’s politicians wading in, celebrities giving their opinions, and perhaps more importantly key sponsors holding all the cards. That side of it just doesn’t sit right with me, irrespective of this individual case.
No because like it or not we do have a court system where the presumption of innocence sits with the defendant. (I’m not saying he’s innocent before that is brought back up!). It’s far too simplistic to look at rape statistics, see the low percentage of conviction and just decide well I’ll assume everyone is guilty. That attitude is genuinely scary and should be for the vast majority of people, because one allegation would be enough to ruin you. I’ve got no problem by the way with someone having an opinion. As with any debate, what I always take issue with is definitive statements and those that can’t be backed up fully.
I also see you reiterating the point through this thread that Greenwood and the club have admitted to mistakes and I agree those shouldn’t be ignored. That’s why frankly I’ve changed my opinion to agree that he needed to leave.
In amongst all of the acrimony in this thread I do believe everyone is united in their view that the statement was hot garbage and Arnold has made a complete mess of the handling of this issue.
Her Mum, dad and other witnesses.
If they genuinely think he is innocent, then that wouldn’t be fair to him though. It would make it look as though we’d concluded he was guilty. If that’s the belief of the club, then they did the right thing (although obviously it’s arguable that he should be permitted to play for United in that scenario).
So, you think the justice system is bang on, but then go on to talk about a huge mistake? You understand that cases don't get to court based on "public opinion" don't you? And that's the whole point of court, to take all evidence and make a decision right? Otherwise why is it there in the first place if it's so obvious who's guilty or not? You also surely understand mistakes in the system DO happen and quite often. Even in this case, a judge questioned the police on their shambolic handling of him breaking bail.
The Guardian reported the following:
A court heard last October how a central plank in the inquiry had collapsed only four months after Greenwood was arrested.
It is understood that police and prosecutors initially decided to continue with the case because of the significant level of public interest, given Greenwood’s high profile and the seriousness of the allegations.
But a review of the case by CPS lawyers has concluded that there was no realistic prospect of conviction given the collapse of the case.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news...ors-drop-alleged-case-against-mason-greenwood
So it's better to do these things in private where the super rich and powerful potential abuser can use his/her wealth and influence to bury any allegations?I think public pressure plays a bigger role in modern society than it should. It’s why in the vast majority of cases it’s much better for justice to be served in a legal setting, outside of the public eye. Also as you’ve clearly alluded to it’s not just public opinion on boards like this, it’s politicians wading in, celebrities giving their opinions, and perhaps more importantly key sponsors holding all the cards. That side of it just doesn’t sit right with me, irrespective of this individual case.
No because like it or not we do have a court system where the presumption of innocence sits with the defendant. (I’m not saying he’s innocent before that is brought back up!). It’s far too simplistic to look at rape statistics, see the low percentage of conviction and just decide well I’ll assume everyone is guilty. That attitude is genuinely scary and should be for the vast majority of people, because one allegation would be enough to ruin you. I’ve got no problem by the way with someone having an opinion. As with any debate, what I always take issue with is definitive statements and those that can’t be backed up fully.
I also see you reiterating the point through this thread that Greenwood and the club have admitted to mistakes and I agree those shouldn’t be ignored. That’s why frankly I’ve changed my opinion to agree that he needed to leave.
A young man who at the time was 19, guilty of no crime completely let down by his employer. Only 2 people know exactly what took place at the time of the alleged assault and the accusations were withdrawn upon new evidence but to some people he’s still guilty. He should have insisted on a trial because the kangaroo court of gossip won’t let drop.Yes, he's innocent until proven guilty, just as everyone else not convicted of a crime. That's why I asked you about the babysitter: you know they did it, but they're still treated as innocent because they've not been proven guilty. You were very clear there that innocent until proven guilty isn't something you value, the fact that the babysitter is guilty in reality overrides the fact that they haven't been proven guilty by the justice system. Everything you so idealistically say about Greenwood also applies to the babysitter, but you don't mean it. You defend Greenwood because you don't think he did what he has been accused of, or at least because you have very serious doubts, not for any other reasons. It's not about innocent until proven guilty, it's not about second chances.
A young man who at the time was 19, guilty of no crime completely let down by his employer. Only 2 people know exactly what took place at the time of the alleged assault and the accusations were withdrawn upon new evidence but to some people he’s still guilty. He should have insisted on a trial because the kangaroo court of gossip won’t let drop.
Mason Greenwood never stood a chance of staying at Man Utd. Society is shunning a man who wasn't convicted. A sign of the changing times.
A young man who at the time was 19, guilty of no crime completely let down by his employer. Only 2 people know exactly what took place at the time of the alleged assault and the accusations were withdrawn upon new evidence but to some people he’s still guilty. He should have insisted on a trial because the kangaroo court of gossip won’t let drop.
Mason Greenwood never stood a chance of staying at Man Utd. Society is shunning a man who wasn't convicted. A sign of the changing times.
A young man who at the time was 19, guilty of no crime completely let down by his employer. Only 2 people know exactly what took place at the time of the alleged assault and the accusations were withdrawn upon new evidence but to some people he’s still guilty. He should have insisted on a trial because the kangaroo court of gossip won’t let drop.
Mason Greenwood never stood a chance of staying at Man Utd. Society is shunning a man who wasn't convicted. A sign of the changing times.
Do you remember Benjamin Mendy? He was tried and convicted of crimes in the court of public opinion. He was charged to court and lost his football career and at the end he was not found guilty over the case that stole his career. Now my question is what will then happen to the persons that made him lose his career?
Mason Greenwood never stood a chance of staying at Man Utd. Society is shunning a man who wasn't convicted. A sign of the changing times.
Society? Any individual can decide whether or not they want to support him based on information that is publicly available. A huge number of people simply don't want to or can't reconcile that support, and they're more than entitled to that view. Meanwhile he remains still employed in his role, collecting his full wage as he has for the last year and a half, and his employer are choosing not to include him in their plans in the mean time as they can with any player for any reason.
It's an interesting take on 'shunned by society' but I can't say it's one I can agree on. I won't support him based on the contents of the recording, you can choose to, and that's on the individual, but it's not really outlandish that his current employer is looking for ways to move him on.
I'm interested in hearing your take because it seems to contradict what you said. Their case wasn't very strong to begin with.I know you think you have something there, but the SERIOUSNESS OF THE ALLEGATIONS part seems to have alluded you, also the fact it DIDN'T get to court.
Plus you must surely be well aware of why such a public figure charged with such serious offenses, especially offenses which have been under such scrutiny of late, would be deemed in the public interest to pursue no?
Or do you guys think they do this with no evidence and purely because of public pressure?
I'm interested in hearing your take because it seems to contradict what you said. Their case wasn't very strong to begin with.
Now we've even established that the GMP are useless.
The Guardian reported the following:
A court heard last October how a central plank in the inquiry had collapsed only four months after Greenwood was arrested.
It is understood that police and prosecutors initially decided to continue with the case because of the significant level of public interest, given Greenwood’s high profile and the seriousness of the allegations.
But a review of the case by CPS lawyers has concluded that there was no realistic prospect of conviction given the collapse of the case.
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news...ors-drop-alleged-case-against-mason-greenwood
Why would anything happen to them? He wasn't proven innocent, the verdict is not proof they lied. There were nine of them, remember? Do you believe they were all liars? How often do you see that many accusers, even in celebrity cases?Do you remember Benjamin Mendy? He was tried and convicted of crimes in the court of public opinion. He was charged to court and lost his football career and at the end he was not found guilty over the case that stole his career. Now my question is what will then happen to the persons that made him lose his career?
The women who falsely accused him of rape and sexual assault. He was named and shamed in the court of public opinion. Shocking that he has had his life ripped from him.Who made him lose his career, and what do you think should happen to them?
He should sue for damages. It should be a classic case. He has lost out on a potential move to real Madrid and millions in future wages. He missed out millions on lucrative sponsorship deals. How will they compensate him for that?Who made him lose his career, and what do you think should happen to them?
Being good at maths and going to Oxford doesn’t mean you’re intelligent in all aspects of life. Most people I know that are only going at math are
Right but many clubs won't and don't care, there is already interest in him. As long as he's not guilty the audio and images won't matter to many, there are a lot of fans who think he's the victim of something. Football is not the moral sport that many try to make it out to be.
The women who falsely accused him of rape and sexual assault. He was named and shamed in the court of public opinion. Shocking that he has had his life ripped from him.
He should sue for damages. It should be a classic case. He has lost out on a potential move to real Madrid and millions in future wages. He missed out millions on lucrative sponsorship deals. How will they compensate him for that?
Did you follow Johnny Depp's defamation trial against Amber Heard?
I bet you don't have such a cast iron view of the criminal system in all cases.
I have and will continue to speak out against all forms of injustice. If I don’t, I have chosen the side of the tyrants.
Yeh, I noticed the significant period between the witness withdrawing and the case being dropped which basically shuts down the argument that the witness withdrawing is why the case was dropped. A factor yes, the sole reason as many keep claiming? No.
Instead, the CPS pressed ahead as they are entitled to do so and for almost a year. In that time they were unable to find enough to take it to court and instead, by their own admission found "new material" which ended any realistic possibility of conviction.
The women who falsely accused him of rape and sexual assault. He was named and shamed in the court of public opinion. Shocking that he has had his life ripped from him.
He should sue for damages. It should be a classic case. He has lost out on a potential move to real Madrid and millions in future wages. He missed out millions on lucrative sponsorship deals. How will they compensate him for that?
Did you follow Johnny Depp's defamation trial against Amber Heard?
You complain about the "court of public opinion", then turn around and do the same thing.
The women who falsely accused him of rape and sexual assault. He was named and shamed in the court of public opinion. Shocking that he has had his life ripped from him.
He should sue for damages. It should be a classic case. He has lost out on a potential move to real Madrid and millions in future wages. He missed out millions on lucrative sponsorship deals. How will they compensate him for that?
Did you follow Johnny Depp's defamation trial against Amber Heard?
You're right. It was my mistake. Let me correct my mistake. The women whoOk, that's what I thought you were saying. Lets rewind a little bit:
We can also add all your previous talk about innocent until proven guilty, the court of public opinion, and so on.
None of the women in the Mendy case have been criminally convicted of making false accusations. They haven't even been charged. Yet, here you are, perfectly comfortable of accusing people of crimes.
Those are your opinions that has no merit but why do people get offended when people disagree with them? The difference between poison and medicine is in the dose. Good night, Sir.Ok, that's what I thought you were saying. Lets rewind a little bit:
You are, very clearly, a liar. All the reasons you offer up in defense of Greenwood turn out to be lies. You talk about innocent until proven guilty, but you don't give a shit. You complain about the "court of public opinion", then turn around and do the same thing. You have zero principles, and it's clear for all to see. So, stop pretending. Say you want Greenwood to stay because you think he's innocent, or because you don't care either way. Don't make stuff up.
I've not seen any claim that was the sole reason. Not on here anyway, though I might have missed those posts.
No criminal charges, just suing for money?
And you think the same about the woman who accused Greenwood right?
Everyone who is complaining about it is. They are all part of what they decry, they just seem sad it's not their side been listened to.
I wonder how they think United chose which mob to listen to? Because the "outrage" over him leaving has been just as large on social media (and I include this place in that).