No, in a court of law they are not guilty.
That distinction is very important. And that also plays into the whole "innocent until proven guilty" misnomer too.
Mason Greenwood | Officially a Marseille player
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No, in a court of law they are not guilty.
That distinction is very important. And that also plays into the whole "innocent until proven guilty" misnomer too.
Yeah, well, this makes everything much worse because if he did what he was accused of, he did it from a position of prominence, power and wealth.
You are all over the place
Actually I shouldn't laugh, it's deeply sad that you have popped back in to post this stuff considering when you signed up. On social media, no less.
So confident were they in the not guilty decision that they took based on facts and evidence that nobody else has seen that they promptly shipped him off to another country. Arnold and the board further found that Poland provoked Hitler and Jamal Khashoggi had it coming.
We have people in the uk and abroad who are in very high and powerful positions who it is said of that if you shake their hand count your fingers afterwards. I don’t like whataboutery but football and in particular Utd seems to be held to a higher standard.
Be a very interesting time if like is being suggested in the papers he ends up at Barca, Madrid or most intriguingly Chelsea. Because if they feel like they can handle the backlash why couldn’t United. Scrutiny at Madrid or Barca might not be as great as he’d get in the UK but just imagine if he ends up at Madrid or Barca which in a weird way would kinda be an upgrade for him over current United. Probably a far greater chance of trophies.
What do you think the phrases "innocent until proven guilty" and "presumption of innocence" mean?
It's not a misnomer at all.
Why do you think there's no such thing as an "innocent" verdict?
And it most definitely is a misnomer when used outside a courtroom. In fact, I'd argue it is inside too...should be "not guilty until proven guilty" I guess.
So is there any chance of a return then?
Its not real life, you don't know any of the people involved here - you have never met them or spoken even one word with them in your life.
So making judgements based on incredibly limited information is not a good idea.
Those with more empirical evidence at their disposal than you (the club) have concluded that Greenwood is not guilty.
Still the issue is that the audio/pics were released publicly and clearly many people are not able to get past that content. Eventhough I don't agree with the 'trial by social media', I think that he and/or she will have to do some kind of public interview/explanation of the audio/pics before he can play for us again.
There isn't an innocent verdict because innocence is presumed. You're overthinking this by arguing semantics.
Presumption of innocence: before a conviction
Not guilty: after a non-conviction
Note: Thre might be certain instances where the above doesn't hold true (ie. mistrial) but you should more or less understand
British law is weird because it seemingly makes it very difficult to convict a person of a crime, even when it appears to be open and shut. It's why you get claims of the courts or police protecting the criminals.
The wording is an important part of this so words like 'innocent' are less likely to influence a person than 'not guilty'
It's a pretty good idea tbh and makes guilty verdicts quite robust, though as we've seen not infallible. The alternatives are all a bit shit. Compare the UK to the US, which is partly built on common law but wrongful conviction is far more common in the US.
This is the best case scenario. Maybe MG as part exchange for FdJ if broke Barca want him.
We all had access to the evidence publicly shared and I guess we all initially felt something was not right. Based on United’s statement “Mason publicly acknowledges today, he has made mistakes which he is taking responsibility for.” What is the extent of these mistakes? Should he be written off?
let’s talk facts after that:
- all charges against mason have been dropped (for whatever reasons; it’s dropped - done).
- the official United statement reads “Based on the evidence available to us, we have concluded that the material posted online did not provide a full picture and that Mason did not commit the offences in respect of which he was originally charged.” So it seems there is more to what was posted online that gives a better context to what we all got access to. This seems to have been in favor of greenwood. We do not and will not have access to that. But the club’s investigation gave this conclusion.
- mason is back with his partner and they’re starting a family together.
- a club in a top league in europe has accepted him as a player and rumors of bigger clubs wanting him are now spreading.
- mason is playing good football week in week out.
with that said, why would we not take him back? his partner has forgiven him. Can’t he be given a chance to redeem himself as a player at united? Can’t he be given the chance to be a better human being?
Why not keep a good footballer if the club itself concluded that he has not committed the offences he was suspected of? Why would it be OK for Getafe, Madrid, Barcelona, Chelsea or any other club to have mason as a team member but United can not?
i find it unfortunate that United’s decision to ship him out is largely influenced by media and fans’ reactions (though I now see lots of fans actually willing to have him back). This resembles the state of the club actually. We’re under more scrutiny than any other football club in the world and we fall into that in so many aspects.
let’s talk facts after that:
- all charges against mason have been dropped (for whatever reasons; it’s dropped - done).
- the official United statement reads “Based on the evidence available to us, we have concluded that the material posted online did not provide a full picture and that Mason did not commit the offences in respect of which he was originally charged.” So it seems there is more to what was posted online that gives a better context to what we all got access to. This seems to have been in favor of greenwood. We do not and will not have access to that. But the club’s investigation gave this conclusion.
- mason is back with his partner and they’re starting a family together.
- a club in a top league in europe has accepted him as a player and rumors of bigger clubs wanting him are now spreading.
- mason is playing good football week in week out.
with that said, why would we not take him back? his partner has forgiven him. Can’t he be given a chance to redeem himself as a player at united? Can’t he be given the chance to be a better human being?
Why not keep a good footballer if the club itself concluded that he has not committed the offences he was suspected of? Why would it be OK for Getafe, Madrid, Barcelona, Chelsea or any other club to have mason as a team member but United can not?
i find it unfortunate that United’s decision to ship him out is largely influenced by media and fans’ reactions (though I now see lots of fans actually willing to have him back). This resembles the state of the club actually. We’re under more scrutiny than any other football club in the world and we fall into that in so many aspects.
Garnacho Hojlund Greenwood
That should be our front 3 in January. Bringing Greenwood back would be like a new signing.
Rashford Martial Antony can be the backups.
That should be our front 3 in January. Bringing Greenwood back would be like a new signing.
Rashford Martial Antony can be the backups.
Sorry I just find calls for keeping him infuriating and disgustingly ignorant, possibly from individuals who aren’t parents or who don’t not have daughters of their own. I could be wrong.
Young girls and boys look up to these players and how would you feel about your daughter wearing a Greenwood shirt? How would you feel if she was a victim of abuse and there wasn’t evidence for a formal charge with the perpetrator continuing to earn a living?
while there is no admissible evidence in eyes of the law that Greenwood did anything wrong , there is enough to suggest something went down. That alone is enough for me to never want to see the player in United colours.
Young girls and boys look up to these players and how would you feel about your daughter wearing a Greenwood shirt? How would you feel if she was a victim of abuse and there wasn’t evidence for a formal charge with the perpetrator continuing to earn a living?
while there is no admissible evidence in eyes of the law that Greenwood did anything wrong , there is enough to suggest something went down. That alone is enough for me to never want to see the player in United colours.
Absolutely no bases for that, people just have a different opinion to you.
It's hard to have a conversation about this whole thing because you say A - then someone responds to B (and usually with a tone of indignation)
My post even included this sentence as a disclaimer: "whether you believe it or not it's a different conversation"
And of course it means something - substantial too - seeing as, again, they are much closer to this than any of us - including even some of those reporting on it.
United stated the results of their investigation and mentioned the victim's and her family's awareness and wishes as corroboration. Those things, however, aren't mutually exclusive with "having" to ship him out - as evidently public reaction wasn't accommodating of his return and was damaging to the club, the fanbase, the team and to the player and his family (including the victim). Look at this thread.
Read above. Also, United's statement didn't happen in a vacuum and I don't know why people are pretending it did.
Broken record time - whether you believe it or not is a different conversation - I've not discounted the possibility that it may have been in United's interest to say so - but when posters start saying stuff like "until we can verify his innocence" it is OK to contextualise what has happened thus far. And again, the language used by the club was very matter of factly.
We’d be lucky to have young boys and girls looking up to our players the way we are playing though.
It’s the clubs prerogative to bring him back, but it’s also mine as to whether or not to support the club, which I will no longer do.
United shipped him out not because they cared about the feelings of anyone but purely because high profile people like Rachel Riley were putting major pressure on sponsors to which our club is beholden being a purely commercial and not football club.
I have a feeling ETH was fuming and let down immensely as he saw it before with Overmars and he would have course wanted Mason back with his qualities.
In terms of play I have watched most of Getafes games and they are an average side who play tough football but the impact he has had on them is immense and not always reflected in stats but main striker Mayoral is having is best scoring season of his career mainly thanks to the difference Greenwood is making to their overall game and they look for each other on the pitch constanstly as they are the 2 best players. Hojlund will surely be jealous having the service he has had.
It's a total no brainer United are losing money on his wages and all this affects ffp which we are very restricted by. We need to bring him back in Jan don't care about the noise it will quieten down, if we lose a sponsor just get another one. If we lose Rachel Riley etc then all the better.
I have a feeling ETH was fuming and let down immensely as he saw it before with Overmars and he would have course wanted Mason back with his qualities.
In terms of play I have watched most of Getafes games and they are an average side who play tough football but the impact he has had on them is immense and not always reflected in stats but main striker Mayoral is having is best scoring season of his career mainly thanks to the difference Greenwood is making to their overall game and they look for each other on the pitch constanstly as they are the 2 best players. Hojlund will surely be jealous having the service he has had.
It's a total no brainer United are losing money on his wages and all this affects ffp which we are very restricted by. We need to bring him back in Jan don't care about the noise it will quieten down, if we lose a sponsor just get another one. If we lose Rachel Riley etc then all the better.
I will alert the press!
But Ronaldo was fine? Oh the morals
Which scenario do you think works out best for his partner? She'll be wrongly blamed by a section of utd fans and gaslighted for a long period of time if Greenwood is sold to a club like Real Madrid or Barcelona. It'll become another form of abuse, it's grim to think about but it's reality.
It's a complex situation. Fans have weighed it up and accepted the idea of him returning for their own reasons, I think that should be respected as much as fans that have rejected it. It's a shit show, but at least if it doesn't work out the way you want it, at least over the long run, your bi weekly source of happiness will be marginally boosted. A Greenwood screamer will be the emotional equivalent of 'Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough' getting dropped on a Saturday night.
Part I: Ehm many women and girls are loving Ronaldo.
Part II: Have you said the same about Ronaldo's time at Old Trafford?
That will never happen as United have boxed themselves in to a corner where they’ll be lucky to get a fee for him. From what I read it’s Real that are most keen on the idea and watching how he develops.
Just imagine him Joining Real, getting to the level everyone expected him to get to, most likely winning league titles, champions league titles maybe possibly even in discussion for Balon Dor’s wonder how that would sit for the people that would prefer he never saw the light of day again let alone be allowed to play football.
Yeah I am quite neutral about him returning. But looking at reactions in this forum, I know it will really tear the fans apart and we don't need that. Footballers are really not supposed to be role models and many are clearly not. It is hard to draw the line on which of the evils in their lives should count as unpardonable, but everyone has their own views. I mean, for purely footballing-connected evil, I would, for example, totally oppose the signing of Toney (who bet on football matches!).
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For mason and his wife I would love to see them joining real .
It would be a new start for their new young family.
If I am not wanted and loved somewhere then i would find a place where I would be .
Simple as that.
I hope the real rumors are true and he'll fulfill his promises.
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This just isn't as simple as most people are pretending it is.
Nearly everyone in this thread from the last page or so I've read seems to be completely black and white one way or the other, and I don't get how you can be with the circumstances without applying a ridixylous amount of conjecture.
What it comes down to is what is best for the victimised parties involved, which is mainly Greenwood's girlfriend and their child. Not one person in this thread possibly knows nearly enough about the situation, the context of what happened, or the individuals involved, to possibly begin to make a sound judgement on that.
And from a moral point of view that is all that matters. What Rachel Riley thinks, what the sponsors think, what other people with daughters think, how much money or harm it might cost the club, etc. shouldn't be a relevant consideration if you are only arguing based on what is the right thing to do, because a) that is applying someone's outside selfish reasoning to the situation, and b) none of those parties know enough to make a sound judgement either.
My main problem is I also don't trust the club to make a sound judgement, because of how poorly they handled it initially, where the only concern seemed to be financial/success and then later image related. So whatever ends up happening I'm not going to be able to feel entirely comfortable with
Nearly everyone in this thread from the last page or so I've read seems to be completely black and white one way or the other, and I don't get how you can be with the circumstances without applying a ridixylous amount of conjecture.
What it comes down to is what is best for the victimised parties involved, which is mainly Greenwood's girlfriend and their child. Not one person in this thread possibly knows nearly enough about the situation, the context of what happened, or the individuals involved, to possibly begin to make a sound judgement on that.
And from a moral point of view that is all that matters. What Rachel Riley thinks, what the sponsors think, what other people with daughters think, how much money or harm it might cost the club, etc. shouldn't be a relevant consideration if you are only arguing based on what is the right thing to do, because a) that is applying someone's outside selfish reasoning to the situation, and b) none of those parties know enough to make a sound judgement either.
My main problem is I also don't trust the club to make a sound judgement, because of how poorly they handled it initially, where the only concern seemed to be financial/success and then later image related. So whatever ends up happening I'm not going to be able to feel entirely comfortable with
I’m not going to lie. I don’t know what you are trying to say.
Eitherway he hasn’t been charged they could simple make a stance based on that. It’s not like he’s not allowed to play professional football again. He could join Arsenal if they wanted to buy his contract.
Just bring him back, stop playing silly buggers.
This. End thread
You will get lots of disagreements here for pointing those facts because of various moral codes from various individuals. But I am with you. For me the biggest give away is how his wife and her family being so cool with it and seems very happy get along with him ever since the incidence.
I mean who are we to judge? We all only have few minutes glimpse of the incidence, but they have been spending their lives together for years and they are happy. It would be extremely arrogant/ignorant for anyone with only few minutes of glimpse to play the role of judge or even God here. If every relevant person are happy with him, I don’t think there should be any problem.
This.
Saying it again because it needs to be said.
He’s a selfish twat who doesn’t pass the ball and if we bring him back and put him on the right side, it will be such a horrific decision and will make our side even more disjointed.
He’s a selfish twat who doesn’t pass the ball and if we bring him back and put him on the right side, it will be such a horrific decision and will make our side even more disjointed.
Clueless.
Load of nonsense which wasn’t true at Utd and isn’t true now.
Have you actually seen him play?
Nonsense. Based on pure footballing arguments, it would be an absolute no-brainer to bring him back, and he would be in the starting XI almost immediately.
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