It was one of them Swedish art films Travis took her to, and she was too much of a Philistine to appreciate it (or him).
Film Martin Scorsese - Marvel movies are 'not cinema'
- Thread starter Sweet Square
- Start date
Scorsese is right in the sense that he is talking about cinema in the artform sense of the word. Superhero films are light entertaining fluff (well I hate almost all of them but ...) and are certainly not high art. Although depending on how picky you are you might find most films aren't cinema by (seemingly) Scorsese's definition.
One of those pointless pub arguments that can never be really be decided as nobody is arguing based on the same understanding.
One of those pointless pub arguments that can never be really be decided as nobody is arguing based on the same understanding.
Last edited:
A point about this younger generation that hasn’t been mentioned is that they’re the first generation growing up without sharing the cultural aspect of watching their parents’ films.
They have their own screens that they want to watch. I think we’ve lost a lot of culturally significant films being passed on through this.
They have their own screens that they want to watch. I think we’ve lost a lot of culturally significant films being passed on through this.
Wow
It's absolutely worth arguing and it's a point worth making because of the knock on effect that Marvel films (and the likes) have on the cinema industry economy, and the disappearance of a whole chunk of mid budget, often indie, films.
Last edited by a moderator:
It’s really not.
The death of DVD sales was the main cause behind the demise of mid budget films, not the blockbusters that Marvel is the poster child of.
You have persuaded me as I think they are utter rubbish.
yeah I feel the idea that ‘Marvel films & Kids these days’ are responsible for the current movie landscape a bit shallow and reactionary. It’s streaming if it’s anything, and the adoption of that is pretty much all millennials fault. (also the sequel/franchise obsession pre-dates Marvel and was initially at least mostly based around Gen X obsessions - Star Wars, Ghostbusters, Indiana Jones etc)
Marvel films are at most a consequence of the post Star Wars landscape.
Basically Star Wars makes everything worse.
It's really not, but there's much better written articles by people working in the industry, sharing first hand experience with studio executives, that make this point.
Not that "Marvel" itself is the absolute root cause for this issue, but thinking the space they take and the financials of those "products" (because they are products) isn't an issue for the overall economy of cinema is a bit strange.
A24, FilmIn, Mubi are good places to look
Although I'm happy to leave it at that
I agree that it sucks to see big studios sucking the majority of the profits of the industry up, but this is not exclusive to the film industry and is basically how all media industries work. I don't really see how Marvel is any worse than the other big studios pumping out popular films just to make profit. I still can't help but see "old man yells at cloud" vibes from people that still complain about them, superhero films are just the latest fad like slashers, action or gangster films have been.
Nah don't really agree. As an example. Independence Day vs Independence Day 2. Both are dumb films.
One has a coherent story that makes sense and some dumb characters but who's motivations and behaviour actually fit. Still holds up as a watchable film now
One is just a bunch of random stuff that happens with a bunch of characters who make no sense on any level and keep doing and saying dumb shite. No one ever needs to or should be made to watch it ever again.
Both I think are fairly typical of that kind of film for the time.
Re: Marvel - Earlier Marvel films were fun and simple. The formula got tired so it was always going to have a shelf life, but the newer films there's more and more stuff going on and less and less sense as to why. The characters have become stupider and less logical. Thor for example has had a full on character assination into a circus clown. Don't agree that they're "not cinema" because I don't know who gets to define what cinema is other than what films are being shown there, but I wouldn't go to a cinema to see a new Marvel film.
I'm not going to argue that Resurgence isn't terrible and dumb, because it is, but on the other hand you have something like Top Gun: Maverick which is superior to the original in the every single way. I also don't really think Resurgence is representative, as it is one of the very worst blockbusters of the 2010s.
Having stupid sequels to good films isn't anything new either. Something like The Lost World, as much as I loved it as a kid, is incredibly dumb, it's basically a long string of dumb decisions of supposedly smart characters.
A lot of it has to do with the fact that there are so much content outside of the movies you need to see to get everything. Which is in itself bad, and an obvious miscalculation of Marvel, but it is what it is.
I'd say the biggest reason for Marvel movies being worse now is not that movies in general are getting stupider and worse, it's because they haven't been able to come up with any overaching storyline that catches the audiences after the Infinity Saga was over. Whatever they've done since then (multiverse) just hasn't worked out.
Last edited:
the only issue with Marvel movies is that they aren't really that fun anymore, which was kinda the only reason for them to exist. pretty much all went to shit after the Infinity War, but let's not pretend that some of them weren't among the most entertaining blockbusters you could watch during the year.
to me, movies like Aftersun, Women Talking, The Quiet Girl and similarly empty dramas are bigger stain in the industry. same goes for that shyte with Emma Stone that she got the award for last year. there are waaay more such dross than there are Marvel movies and I take any blockbuster before that shyte. it's almost insulting reading all the paid reviews and everyone pretending those aren't movies your average student could make. it's like in Emperor's New Clothes basically.
we already got rid of romantic comedies and hopefully the same happens with these... whatever they are.
to me, movies like Aftersun, Women Talking, The Quiet Girl and similarly empty dramas are bigger stain in the industry. same goes for that shyte with Emma Stone that she got the award for last year. there are waaay more such dross than there are Marvel movies and I take any blockbuster before that shyte. it's almost insulting reading all the paid reviews and everyone pretending those aren't movies your average student could make. it's like in Emperor's New Clothes basically.
we already got rid of romantic comedies and hopefully the same happens with these... whatever they are.
It's this and introducing a whole load of new characters that nobody gives a shite about
Replacing RDJ and Evans was always going to be a challenge
They're 7 Eleven frozen food as compared to proper cuisine made by michelin star chef
It's edible but it sure aint beating the cuisine
What's the Michelin star chef compared to Marvel though?
Cinema isn't a pretentious elite thing. It's somewhere you go to watch a film you'll enjoy. The only real qualifier imo is whether people will enjoy the film enough to go. Marvel films were very successful at that part for a period of time.
I wouldn't try to argue with anyone that they aren't the cinema equivalent of junk food, but they're still cinema, unless there's a criteria I'm not aware of.
The whole ending of dvd’s ruining the mid budget movie thing - don’t studios get paid by streaming services in the same way? It’s not like post cinema monetisation has completely dried up. Or is it the financials just don’t stack up to former dvd sales?
Except that the worst of the 9 Star Wars films is 1000 times better than all but a handful of the superhero nonsense.
Admittedly I have not watched more than one or two Marvel movies, but isn't it exactly the same crap? Loud noises, action scenes and a very weak plot. Having watched Episode 7, 8 and 9, I have a hard time imagining the Marvel movies being worse.
This is only true to Gen Xers. The first generation that were allowed to be cultural adolescents forever thanks to the lack of a good war and subsequently made everyone pretend their silly space adventure with admittedly very good production design was somehow high art.
Last edited:
The worst of Star Wars is pretty bad, but I’ll agree that 90% of the superhero genre is absolute trash. But there are some real gems out there, as well as some highly enjoyable, entertaining films.
For me, Rogue One and especially Andor is absolute peak Star Wars, and I would likely put Andor above anything ever produced in the Superhero genre. That said, the following content is all somewhere between very good and very entertaining (in no particular order):
The Dark Knight
The Suicide Squad
Peacemaker
The Penguin
The Boys
Invincible
V for Vendetta
Thor: Ragnarok
Avengers: Infinity War
Deadpool
Deadpool 2
Deadpool & Wolverine
X-Men: First Class
X-Men: Days of Future Past
Watchmen (series)
Guardians of the Galaxy
Logan
Captain America: Winter Soldier
The Incredibles
Megamind
There are several others that fall into the category of quite good and entertaining, and I’m sure there will be some debate as to movies I’ve included and ones I’ve left out. But my point is more that there are actually quite a lot of very good superhero movies, but due to the sheer volume of output, even though I’ve listed 20 films, it still only represents a small fraction of the overall universe sizes. For every film I’ve listed, there are probably 5 or 6 that are somewhere on the spectrum between okay, and utter trash.
I can at least watch the later Start Wars films, rubbish though they are really. The majority of superhero films, especially more recently have been painfully bad. And even where the quality is theoretically Ok it is like comparing eating McDonalds once a month in 2000 and now being force fed a big Mac 3 times per day, every day.
I just stay away from Marvel movies, because I know I would find them silly. I wouldn't lump all superhero movies together though. I loved the latest Batman movie with Robert Pattinson, for instance.
Rise of Skywalker is absolutely worse than almost all Marvel films. It's genuinely atrocious.
It is poor but an Oscar winner in comparison to the vast majority of superhero movies. It may be a turd but superhero movies are ongoing semi-permanent explosive gastro.
Deadpool is a prime example. It arrived and was funny, irreverent with good action, seemingly breathing life into superheros movies again. Over 3 movies it has descended into now being a 2 hour film of Ryan Reynolds smugly masturbating to the camera and Huge Jackman looking confused and annoyed.
Last edited:
I agree Star Wars is absolutely shite.
In retrospect the introduction of Wookies was the beginning of the end. Or at least a harbinger of the end. Lucas deciding to direct again was probably the confirmation of the decent that we should have seen coming as well.
Although it could be worse. They could have been superhero movies. Ironic that the success of Star Wars was what made the making of big budget superhero movies viable in the eyes of the studios back in the late 70's/early 80's.
Not at all, there are maybe five MCU films that are worse than Rise of Skywalker, but that's nice to Skywalker. I didn't like Deadpool & Wolverine, but it's inifintely more successfull in what it's trying to achieve than Rise of Skywalker.
You missed Loki.
It'll burnout eventually and Hollywood will move in to the next new in the vouge subject.
Their box office returns has steadily declined I believe, best case scenario we'll return to a pre marvel world of occasional superhero features which should be better for both sides of the divide, the current formulaic pipeline of stacked timeliness and short notices kills all individuality as studios are encouraged to be risk averse, the original raimi Spiderman trilogy for example had much more soul and joy than whatever marvel has put on since it's inception.
Their box office returns has steadily declined I believe, best case scenario we'll return to a pre marvel world of occasional superhero features which should be better for both sides of the divide, the current formulaic pipeline of stacked timeliness and short notices kills all individuality as studios are encouraged to be risk averse, the original raimi Spiderman trilogy for example had much more soul and joy than whatever marvel has put on since it's inception.
Last edited:
Agree about Andor and rogue one, absolute Gems. Can’t think of too many “holy sh.8t” moments in the cinema I’ve had like Vader mowing down the rebels at end of Rogue one. And it felt earned, it fit with the narrative , not simply gratuitous slashing (even if it was).
Andor is just superb, that part at the funeral is one of the most satisfying moments in a show ever. And there’s so many just brilliant episodes.
I know what Scorcese is saying but don’t agree. It’s basically snobbery. It’s not like we were saturated with top quality movies back in the day. There was mostly average to crap stuff alongside the quotable greats.
I see it that blockbuster movies in many ways are saving cinemas. I goto all sorts of movies but to be honest I’m ok seeing some movies at home. But you have to look at where things are at, not where you want them to be.
People are voting with their feet. They want fun, simple cgi stuff. Families going to movies is the sweet spot. Netflix and online platforms offer alternative options for smaller stuff. And really, are we seeing less indie stuff getting made or just less Indie stuff in cinema?
I think there’s room for both in the industry. The issue isn’t change, it’s complaining about it. You can make a half decent movie on your iPhone , if somebody has a passion project, they can make it work (like that clown horror franchise where your man threw original together for a few thousand).
Something I'd never thought about actually, good point. Our kids would rather feck about on their tablets than sit through a 2 hour movie ''that goes on way too long''. Growing up we all watched whatever was on the TV.
But it really should be easier now than ever before to get a movie made, with the amount of streaming services. The number of movies being produced and released has increased year on year since about 2010.
As someone who grew up watching and loving Star Wars I'll be honest The Empire strikes back is the only genuinely great movie out of the 9. The first one doesn't hold up and has dialogue as bad as the prequels. Return of the Jedi is the weakest of the original trilogy, I love it but it's not a great movie in it's own right, I enjoyed the prequels but they just aren't well made movies and the sequels are utter trash as bad or worse than the worst Marvel or DC movies.
I liked Rogue One though, but other than that the entire 9 film arc is being propped up by one great movie.
Apart from films/series making fun of superheroes, like the Incredibles and The Boys (and the first Deadpool) I find superhero films utterly unwatchable. I'd rather watch a highlight reel of every bit of Jar Jar Binks and Hayden Christiensen as Darth Vader on loop than put up with another superhero movie. Thankfully those aren't the only options.
I should watch Rogue One again. I watched it at the cinema when it first came out in London, but I was only hours off a plane from Australia so I fell asleep early on and woke to see the credits rolling.
All excellent bits of media.
The same guy who made Moonlight and If Beale Street Could Talk