Problem with Fellaini starting, compounded by Smalling, is that our build-up becomes so much more laboured. We made a rod for our own back with the team selection today. You just knew it would be a bitty game. In terms of his individual performance, I thought Fellaini was fine.
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I don't like the guy as a player but he was the least of our problem today. He did fine, even the two shots he had were reasonably taken, unlike Zlatan's and a lot of others who had obvious chances to win us the game but didn't remotely come close.
He wasn't fine considering he was barely involved in the play and was our #10. A #10 should be heavily involved in the attacking game for a team dominating possession.
we were creating enough chances even before he was subbed on. he was hardly a negative impact today. He is limited of course.
There's no imagination in his passing. He's not capable of a creative pass because, he has no vision.
I just think he's the easy scapegoat at times like this. And I frequently engage in a good bit of Fellaini bashing!
There were far bigger issues with the team today, not least our 'leading' players underwhelming and a complete lack of quality in the final third.
I wish he'd been on the bench so we could bring him on at the end. There were a number of dangerous crosses in the last 20 minutes that Fellaini would have been eyeing off, but of course he'd been taken off by then.
Awful today at the 10 position.
Absolute baffling decision by Mourinho there. Play him at the base and get your two best midfielders further forward.
Apart from being tall, he has no attributes to be playing so close to Ibra.
Absolute baffling decision by Mourinho there. Play him at the base and get your two best midfielders further forward.
Apart from being tall, he has no attributes to be playing so close to Ibra.
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Point is it's the same thing every time he starts. Team was also underwhelming against Bournemouth, Hull, City, Watford, Chelsea, Liverpool at home and Middlesbrough. Now Stoke which makes 8 underwhelming performances with him on the pitch out of his 10 starts.
He was positioned like a number 10, mostly for long ball purposes but the whole game he was anything but. If anything the player playing like a 10 was Pogba who was behind most of our attack, he was the one not doing his job properly.
I don't disagree with the wider point you're making and I'll be a happy man when he doesn't play for us anymore. Every time this happens it puts into sharp focus how desperate we are to find a Carrick replacement.
Just looking at today's fixture in isolation though, fashionable options like Mata and Zlatan deserve more criticism.
We weren't playing long balls in the first half unless it was De Gea under pressure. Pogba was playing his usual #8.
They were poor but unlike Fellaini they were involved in something at least.
Fellaini wasn't awful today but he does affect the flow of our attacks. Today was similar to the Middlesbrough game a few weeks when back he started. We just never looked like scoring. Both games we had to rescue points late on after making subs.
Apart from being a nuisance at corners and long balls he doesn't really contribute to our attacking play which is frustrating as he's the only midfielder we've got that gets a free pass for it because people accept he's not very creative and it's not his game so it's fine. You swap out Carrick for Fellaini and you'll end up with a lot more passing it from one wing to the other and fewer incisive passes. Ultimately he didn't do much wrong and you can't blame him for dropping points but Stoke didn't offer much aerially and we had all the posession so it feels like a game Carrick should have started.
I didn't mean we played much long ball in the first half but like you put it he acted as an outlet for high pass in case we are under too much pressure behind, receive and release the ball in their half like a starting point for our attacks, keep things ticking like the Herrera role when Carrick is on the field.
Personally I think he was pushed up there to minimize the impact of his inability on the ball. Without the ball he was position on top of the mifdfield trio, Herrera and Pogba at the base but the moment we had the ball from deeper he dropped back or drifted wide to allow Pogba to come up. It's not a clear #10 role for him.
We were worse when he went off today, despite getting the goal.
But that's because he was brought in when we chased result and we relied on long balls against the good team that didn't allow us to flow through the mid. He's more or less useless in the role he played today and that's not on him, he is what he is...he's just limited player.
To have him as a starter against likes of Stoke away is just rage inducing...He isn't able to allow Pogba more freedom, he actually limited him while not being capable to offer almost anything going forward. He had something like...20 passes in the first half? From position he played? In a game where we dominated possession? It's more than ridiculously bad. And for all his physical prowess, he's unable to play defensive mid without getting exposed. I really wonder what game people that think he was 'decent' watched? He was him self and that's far from being acceptable.
All opposing team has to do is to man mark/double team Pogba and suddenly we have no proper buildup, especially with Jones and Smalling not being capable to play a proper pass forward. Just look at that first half again and look how they marked Pogba out of the game. They were able to do that cause Fellaini offers nothing and it basically halved the number decent attacks we had in that period, we had no flow at all. If Carrick wasn't able to play then even Mkhi playing the role with Rashford (in absence of Martial) providing width on the left would have us look so much more balanced and more dangerous.
The fact that we could have won it anyway makes it even worse...
No we haven't...What game did you watch? Serious question.
As soon as you play someone so limited it has a negative impact unless you compensate by playing very direct or he scores. Should be an impact sub in the league, starting him was a mistake today and that will be the case most of the time.
not true at all. today if ibra mata and mkhi had finished the chances we wouldnt even be having this conversation.
Do you mean didn't?
I watched Stoke vs United, and felt we were better in the first half (with Fellaini) than we were in the second half (without Fellaini)
That's not to say it was because he went off, but that the type of ludicrously you here on the Caf everyday.
People were blaming him for the reason we were losing today. That's not fair at all.
The issue isn't always necessarily fellaini by himself, but starting him with mata and ibrahimovic is just SO SLOW
Jose needs to realise having them 3 in the same team won't work. It's mata or fellaini to start in the middle and then put pace out wide. Whenever they start together we just look so poor, it's back to how we looked under LVG! It's no coincidence.
I thought we looked better as a team when we got lingard and rashford on but by then it was too late and Stoke had no interest in spreading the game.
Jose got it badly wrong with that line up.
Jose needs to realise having them 3 in the same team won't work. It's mata or fellaini to start in the middle and then put pace out wide. Whenever they start together we just look so poor, it's back to how we looked under LVG! It's no coincidence.
I thought we looked better as a team when we got lingard and rashford on but by then it was too late and Stoke had no interest in spreading the game.
Jose got it badly wrong with that line up.
Sorry but we clearly looked better without him on. We actually had some flow in the mid for the reasons I wrote in my previous post.
Should be used as an impact sub to disrupt already tiring teams.
He had that header on target today, and I don't think he was awful, but he's a mid-table player playing for Man Utd.
He had that header on target today, and I don't think he was awful, but he's a mid-table player playing for Man Utd.
Our best chance that was from an open play came in the first half though, there was hardly any improvement in the second half apart from constantly throwing it to the wings most of the time.
Limited as his passing is, I'd say Pogba and Herrera have done worse today, especially the former. He wasn't the sloppiest of our players today, far from it.
Never understand the criticism as we all know what he is and isn't. I think others in the team who are suppose to offer more should have a long look at themselves....
Wasn't half bad.
But the amount of times he doesn't make himself available for a pass is stunning, his positioning and football understanding is even more glaring deficiencies than his tekkers. At certain points the team just gives up and play around him.
But the amount of times he doesn't make himself available for a pass is stunning, his positioning and football understanding is even more glaring deficiencies than his tekkers. At certain points the team just gives up and play around him.
You think he was put up there to minimize his inability if taking part in attack. What does that say about the player?
Mourinho messed up by starting him. It's 3 games in a row there for him without a win which suggests that he might be getting his tactics wrong. This isn't Pulis' Stoke.
He's not a scapegoat he's just shite, he belonged in the team we were playing today, not a United shirt, Pogba and Herrera were having to play around him in midfield as he's so immobile and basically passes it back where it comes from most of the time, slowing down any progression through the midfield.
Not good, not bad. Just pointless really. Not so sure what is expected from him.
You've got to love how Fellaini is always to blame. Even when the others don't play well its Fellaini's fault. Agenda posting at its finest.
It was just an observation that by your standard of a #10 he failed miserably but my point was that he wasn't playing as a 10 role wise.
I said in the beginning that I don't like him as a player, regardless of where he plays. The main argument is that he wasn't bad today in the role he played compared to others, which Jose got it wrong in the first place.
No point criticizing him at this juncture - he is mid-table quality and not consistently good enough as a central midfielder or 10 in transition on the basis of aggregate evidence under three different United managers, yet somehow finds his way back time and again like a post-apocalyptic infestation with a couple decent to good performances to give them hopes of salvaging something - much to the detriment of our aesthetics. This is squarely on José and his tactical detailing - like Louis and David in the past. Reduces the advanced midfield mobility, high-tempo passing and technical ability of the midfield three by plugging Fellaini as a starter at right central midfielder/faux 10 in attack, and simultaneously shoves Ander at 6 (where his best attributes - pressing high into opposition territory, workrate on the flank while covering for Valencia, quick scrambled passes rather than more patient build-up ones à la Carrick - are diminished). Even though the best way to beat a team like Stoke in not matching them step for step by physicality or brute force, but quick passes to bypass the central midfield area - which they flood quite frequently.
Sooner Mourinho figures out that Big Fella's most renowned and valuable characteristic is his chest whilst receiving post 80 minute heat seeking missiles as a roll of the dye measure in utter desperation when all else has failed, the better for everyone involved (not least the bulk of supporters who can't quite fathom what he brings to the team as a central midfield or 10 starter when you have already Smalling - who is labored and can't build from the back, Mata - who is relatively slow to stretch the opposition defense horizontally, and Zlatan - who can't stretch defense vertically with speed). Hitting a cul-de-sac and bottle necking the offense into slower, more condensed central zones with a more agricultural build-up style is inevitable (from an aesthetic sense, aside from the missed chances which can't be blamed on him - and even they don't quite capture the overall diminished nature and speed of play in statistical terms).
Sooner Mourinho figures out that Big Fella's most renowned and valuable characteristic is his chest whilst receiving post 80 minute heat seeking missiles as a roll of the dye measure in utter desperation when all else has failed, the better for everyone involved (not least the bulk of supporters who can't quite fathom what he brings to the team as a central midfield or 10 starter when you have already Smalling - who is labored and can't build from the back, Mata - who is relatively slow to stretch the opposition defense horizontally, and Zlatan - who can't stretch defense vertically with speed). Hitting a cul-de-sac and bottle necking the offense into slower, more condensed central zones with a more agricultural build-up style is inevitable (from an aesthetic sense, aside from the missed chances which can't be blamed on him - and even they don't quite capture the overall diminished nature and speed of play in statistical terms).
How hard is it for you to grasp that players who don't perform well are critiqued in THEIR performance threads (ref. this is Fellaini's performance thread). Hardly anyone is placing the entire blame on him, yet he is portrayed as an eternal martyr suffering great injustice by a certain section of his support-base. Should discussing sub-par performances, setups and unsuitability to certain aesthetic styles from individual players be outlawed?
He's arguably one of the best players in the league, maybe in the world, at chesting the ball down.
I agree but at the same time, I don't think he has 'bad' ability on the ball (for certain areas of the pitch).
He's not very creative with it and definitely not a play maker or someone, who can dictate play but he's capable at recycling possession and closing down opposition attacks. I honestly feel he can do a decent job at the base of midfield to allow Herrera/Pogba to do their thing. He puts himself about, follows tactics to a tee, is fairly press resistant and contrary to his bumbling-big-fool image has a decent first touch and manages to get the ball out of his feet.
Why can't Mourinho try this more often. Sigh. I just want to see someone else other than Carrick there for another option.
He tried it at the start of the season, he played well in the first 2-3 games. But after that not so much, hasn't played there since so Jose must have decided he doesn't like him there and i tend to agree.
Not sure what the you're on about. I was referring to some posters blaming Fellaini for other players not playing well which is of course stupid and fairly common with Fellaini. Save your self righteous bs.
Jose is obviously not as astute as you when it comes to reading the game but I'm sure he'll get there eventually. In the meantime, you and the rest will have to suffer through Fellaini and find new ways of blaming him. Good luck.
And they're partly right - one odd fit can have a domino effect on the entire team, since it's a team game where fine margins and subtle differences in overall balance make a big difference (to cite but one example - taking Carrick out of the team affects the cohesion of our possession play and transitions from the deep). Is Fellaini personally causing folks to miss goal-scoring opportunities or bottle simple things? No. But that structural effect mentioned in the earlier parts has an effect on the team (and from a micro perspective on individual players), and a lot of the times, him getting closer to the box when United is in possession restricts Pogba because he then has to plan against potential counters from a defensive standpoint. Again, he wasn't individually responsible for Pogba's sub-par performance since that's on Pogba, but some of the positional disharmony affects the midfield - trickling down to individual components of said midfield in terms of tactics.
Come on...is this the best you can come up with? A measly attempt at sarcastic condescension? Yeah, José has never been wrong in his entire managerial career, and he hasn't been wrong in his United career - including the time when started Pogba in a 2 with Fellaini or when he used Rooney as a 10 behind a striker who likes to drop deep in Ibrahimović, and he wasn't wrong when the composition of our midfield was completely off-base in that first half vs City. He has never committed any errors, and 'astute readers' like us should never even question his judgement or selection of personnel. We should just bask in awe like mindless goobers, instead of trying to critically analyze what might improve United going forwards, or what might have improved our team vs. Stoke from a personnel related or tactical standpoint.
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