I seriously doubt Rooney's failed shot counted as a key pass or completed pass. Statistic L's tallying is truly not that naive. And its obvious statistics can't tell you everything. But to dismiss them all together is plain criminal and is living in denial.
27
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 47
- Goals
- 4
- Assists
- 2
- Yellow cards
- 9
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
Agree with both of you. He deserve credit this season for the combative part of his game as DM, the help in defending set piece but that's it.
The problem with this game is we have too many players with similar problem: Smalling being a Smalling on ball, Bailly is comfortable with the ball, but his distribution need much improvement. TFM is young and couldn't consistently produce. Rojo being pointless all around. Young as substitute is as pointless. Lingard has his normal game up front when he fecked up to much crucial moment. Pogba Ibra Rashford are triers and risk takers. So only Mata is the one who is tidy with the ball.
People who look at the Leicester game and only scapegoat Fellaini as the only change in the front 6 is simply very wrong. A team consist of 11 players. Valencia may not be fancy but extremely reliable keeping the ball. Blind passing, movement, anticipation when he's on song is at very high level. Herrera has the tools to integrate those upgrade. Fellaini may not be as good as Herrera with that other change, but definitely better with that help than today showing (attacking wise)
Personally I dont like Fellaini as a 6. It doesn't suit his play and it costs the team if the speedsters in the team have off days because he is a largely a conservative passer, slow and will never compensate for slowness with passing. Thus if the speedier ball carriers have an off day, our play will slow to a walk. For me we should go back to strictly using him in a box to box role. Keep Herrera or Carrick for the base. Then either play him, Schneiderlin or Pogba as their box to box partner if we are playing a holding two. And if we want to use both he and Pogba, push the currently consistent Mata or Mhikhitaryan to the right. Fellaini works best as a support player. Not as the one we expect play and tempo to go through
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They do. Just strictly a part of the truth. So no one should pretend they tell they whole picture nor that they say nothing at all
So why did you initially just post those whoscored articles and not provide anything to go along with them, twice?
It just wasn't the right game to play Fellaini in. He's better in games with more space, but he doesn't have the ability to drop the shoulder and dribble passed an opponent. He can't pass anything better than simply. He' a limited player but usually decent at what he does.
Last night I don't think he had his best game, but we should have played Carrick instead.
Last night I don't think he had his best game, but we should have played Carrick instead.
So not he full truth then eh? Thanks
I believe folks in here are smart enough to go through those statistics and see where they have gone wrong
Spot on
It is considered as assist and that failed pass as completed pass.
I'm not dismissing the stats but just using them and saying "Fellaini had 92% success rate so he is good a passer" is wrong as they don't tell the full story. IIRC Mikel also had better pass completion % than likes of Fabregas and everyone knows who is the better passer.
I didn't use it that way thought. I instead pointed out claiming "Fellaini can't pass the ball' yet he has 92% passing accuracy plain points to bias. As for Fabregas, he is just a more consistently ambitious passer than Mikel due to the role they play. But Mikel in comparison hardly ever losses the balk. Even when employed in an attacking role for his national team. So personally I don't consider Fabregas the better passer. But that is just me.....
@Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber you can say that Terry is a better passer than Özil using the passing success rate, for example, the former is usually on 95%+.
The main criticism to Fellaini's passing is that he is almost incapable of a pass that is anyhow challenging (he had one good incisive forward pass in the last game. one.) and he slows our build-up massively, mostly passing sideways and backwards, incapable of finding an opening higher up the pitch or moving the ball forward himself. ANY professional footballer (and he is a better footballer than 99% footballers on the planet, he played hundreds of competitive games and he is being paid millions) is capable of a short 5-10 meter pass without any pressure and he'll make 99 accurate passes out of 100.
Chris Smalling made 76 passes and had 97,4% success rate. And he was even more positive than Fellaini, actually, as Fellaini often passed it back to the center backs.
The main criticism to Fellaini's passing is that he is almost incapable of a pass that is anyhow challenging (he had one good incisive forward pass in the last game. one.) and he slows our build-up massively, mostly passing sideways and backwards, incapable of finding an opening higher up the pitch or moving the ball forward himself. ANY professional footballer (and he is a better footballer than 99% footballers on the planet, he played hundreds of competitive games and he is being paid millions) is capable of a short 5-10 meter pass without any pressure and he'll make 99 accurate passes out of 100.
Chris Smalling made 76 passes and had 97,4% success rate. And he was even more positive than Fellaini, actually, as Fellaini often passed it back to the center backs.
Disregard my previous comment. I don't think that anything can be done here.
I have had this stats debate in the “Herrera Holding” thread. Funnily enough it was about Fellaini too.
The key thing that stats cannot gauge is the context in which a specific stat is taken.
Fellaini completing 97% and 92% of passes against Watford and them lot last night respectively. Not watching the game, you would think he was accomplished on the ball. Even his biggest fan would admit that isn’t the case.
I don’t think Fellaini passes the ball, he passes responsibility. You could say that he’s playing to his strengths or you could say it’s a self-admission that’s he’s poor on the ball. Either way, it’s not good enough for what Man United should be.
I can’t get annoyed with Fellaini (other than the free kicks he concedes), he is what he is. He knows that and we all know that. I was however frustrated with Jose for playing him last night. We all knew we were going to have a lot of possession. In games like that when one team is camped in and the other has all the ball the #6 being good on the ball is imperative.
The key thing that stats cannot gauge is the context in which a specific stat is taken.
Fellaini completing 97% and 92% of passes against Watford and them lot last night respectively. Not watching the game, you would think he was accomplished on the ball. Even his biggest fan would admit that isn’t the case.
I don’t think Fellaini passes the ball, he passes responsibility. You could say that he’s playing to his strengths or you could say it’s a self-admission that’s he’s poor on the ball. Either way, it’s not good enough for what Man United should be.
I can’t get annoyed with Fellaini (other than the free kicks he concedes), he is what he is. He knows that and we all know that. I was however frustrated with Jose for playing him last night. We all knew we were going to have a lot of possession. In games like that when one team is camped in and the other has all the ball the #6 being good on the ball is imperative.
As opposed to Fellaini's performance against an atrocious Zorya....
Its pretty evident than neither Herrera (as DM) nor Fellaini is the solution to our issue in CM. We need a top quality DM who can pass the ball
I don't think there is enough evidence to right off Herrera in that position yet. He's had half a douzan games there and never with the same team / set up around him. He's good on the ball, he's tenacious, he's committed and as much as it pretty irrelevant he's a bright lad that speaks well.
We won 4 titles out of 5 and reached 3 champions league finals with Carrick and Scholesy. Pogba and Herrera for me have the potential to be every bit as good and successful pairing.
I don't really want to see us with a DM, destroyer, ball winner because all of those players are limited. Herrera and Pogba can be press, can both break up play, can both get stuck in. I can accept that on occasion, they might not track a run but so what, that happens. I have seen opposition midfielders run off Keano and score goals. It happens, get over it and accept it. The major criticism with Moyes and LVG was their obsession with the opposition. Lets make them worry about us a bit more and (with in reason) play as many good footballers as we can.
For a couple of seasons when we have had a bunch of fannies playing for us I can accept the heigh / presence argument. But i'll say it again, with Smalling, Pogba, Bailly and Zlatan we don't need height. Why add more height and sacrifice technical ability, mobility and creativity when it is exactly those 3 things we need more of.
I am not writing Herrera off at all. I actually think he should be a first teamer (ie the deep lying playmaker in a 3 men CM). However I don't think that the DM role is suited for him. He doesn't have that tenacity, strength, tackling ability and workrate Keano had and he lacks the positioning Carrick has.
This one sentence is enough to explain Fellaini.
Stats basically say that Fellaini was good at what he did, which he was, but that doesn't mean he was good enough. We clearly need more from him if he's going to partner Pogba (or anyone really).
I agree and disagree in equal measures.
First of all, I take strong objection, almost offence at anybody referring to Roy Keane as a “DM”. I know I made reference to Keano and you where responding to that but labelling him anything other than a centre midfielder is doing him a in-justice
I think a “defensive midfielder” is just a limited player that goes about and gets stuck in. Lee Cattermole for example.
I think Herrera is a tenacious tackler. His positional sense is a little bit of an unknown. Bielsa was a big influence on him who liked dynamic mobile midfielders who press. So that’s the opposite of what I think we are now asking of Ander. However, the reason I brought up his intellect is that he gives me the impression that he’d be very quick to adapt, learn and change. Plenty of the squad have been qouted as saying how much football he watches and how he's an encyclopedia of the game. I think Herrera is Carricks natural more mobile and even slightly more aggressive successor.
There where huge question marks about Carrick replacing Keano, which albeit in a different way, he kind of did. To a degree. Carrick was a similar player to Herrera at the time, nobody knew if he was a 6, 8 or even 10??
I don’t know if Herrera will be able to learn the positional side of playing their at the top level. What I do know he’s got every attribute that in addition to one of the best coaches in the world and in Basti and Carrick, two of the best in their generation all to assist him. He’s at the very least worth giving 12 games alongside Pogba. He might well take to it like a duck to water. Even if he doesn’t and he’s caught out and punished positionaly, he’ll still have a more positive effect to the team than the alternative.
Either Fellaini doesn't play or you get used to United being a limited team who wont be at the level they want to be.
It's that simple really. He can try, he can have decent games, but he can't change the fact he's a very limited midfielder who lacks mobility. Him being in the team creates problems that can't be resolved by changing who you put around him.
You can't get away with covering less ground than every team you play. You can't get away with moving the ball slower than an opposition can regroup. These are problems that create limitations that are impossible to compensate for during a game, so create a glass ceiling for the whole team.
People are obsessing over Rooney, but a team with Wayne Rooney in it can win a league title if the rest of the team is good enough. A team with Fellaini in it can not.
It's that simple really. He can try, he can have decent games, but he can't change the fact he's a very limited midfielder who lacks mobility. Him being in the team creates problems that can't be resolved by changing who you put around him.
You can't get away with covering less ground than every team you play. You can't get away with moving the ball slower than an opposition can regroup. These are problems that create limitations that are impossible to compensate for during a game, so create a glass ceiling for the whole team.
People are obsessing over Rooney, but a team with Wayne Rooney in it can win a league title if the rest of the team is good enough. A team with Fellaini in it can not.
I am sure Fellaini has still something to offer as a sub, with his height and thuggish play, Rooney on the other hand is absolutely useless at everything, he was shit past three years but at least he could finish, now he can't even finish, Fellaini managed to score some important goals for us, in that regard he's a bit like Lingard, not a starter but might change things.
So for me Fellaini is not bad squad player now but from next season we might be looking to strenghten again and he might be a surplus and I will not cry if he goes. I am good with him being around in the team and available on the bench now though, the problem is coaches somewhat like to have him in the team and give him more minutes than he deserves, his gametime could be given to Schneidelrin or TFM or Pereira or even Blind in midfield
A defensive midfielder is a midfielder whose skillset is more defensive oriented than attacking oriented. It’s a wide spectrum that includes players with a wide variety of skillsets from the ultra-defensive minded Makalele to the ‘run and tackle all day long’ midfielders such as Gattuso and Incey, to the more technically gifted DMs (ex Carrick) right to the absolute beasts (Hierro, Keane, Rijkaard and Robson) who could do everything and at world class level.
I think you’re referring to the ‘run and tackle all day long’ midfielders or what more technical people tend to call enforcers (I think). While I acknowledge that there’s a lack of good quality players of that type around, I also believe that the role itself is unfairly criticized in here. A top ‘enforcer’ who got the attitude (ie he knows his limits, he’s got a good understanding of the game etc) and the physical attributes (he’s strong, he rarely gets injured, he’s great in tackling etc) needed for the role would be a great asset to any team, ours included. Gennaro Gattuso is a classic example of that. Similar to Keane who performed the same feat a generation before, Gennaro was instrumental in Pirlo’s conversion from a forward to a world class midfielder. Pirlo-Gennaro’s tandem was central in AC Milan/Italy CLs, Serie A and WC titles. Actually I think, if he digs deep in the pockets of his player’s shorts there still bits and pieces of Paul Scholes and Zinedine Zidane looming there.
A top quality enforcer like Gattuso would be great for us. However I was thinking more of someone like a prime Carrick TBH ie someone who is comfortable with the ball and who relies on his great positioning rather than on brute force/workrate.
Noodlehair said what I've been trying say for a while now, but he said it much better.
Almost every pass he makes is backwards or sideways, his pass completition will always be better than those who are trying to do something with it further up the pitch. As an example, last season compared to these players his average pass length was the shortest and he played the fewest forward passes
Why would you post stats from the last season when people considered him to be shite whereas it's this season when he was getting more praise than usual?
Because I used those stats in a seperate discussion before the season started so I had them to hand and it was the quickest way to illustrate my point. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you. And a sample size of 20-30 games is better than one of 4-5 games.
Also news flash he's the same player and he's not suddenly better this season people are just giving him more slack.
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Agree with this. Fellaini is doing his best and it's admirable at times but it's not good enough. It severely limits the performance capability of the team.
A fish can never be judged by its ability to climb trees. He simply should never be looked at to be a controlling midfielder. He is strictly a support act.
There is a way to use Fellaini effectively but it is not a way that a team that's going to challenge for league titles will ever be able to adhere to.
As a defensive midfielder he isn't mobile enough, he isn't quick enough and he isn't good enough on the ball. When you have him in midfield you make your team static. Especially if you have someone up front in Ibra who is going to come to the ball and bring defenders in with him rather than create movement and space. If you're not going to have a mobile midfield then you have to be able to bypass it or play the ball through the middle very quickly instead
Before the Leicester game we'd covered less distance than ANY other team in the league and that is not a coincidence. It's also a completely unacceptable stat for any team that wants to be top of the league and isn't.
The difference where Rooney's concerned (and I'm not disagreeing with you that he's been crap), is that you can have a team with Rooney in it that can still function as a team to the level required, even if he isn't the reason why. You can't with Fellaini. You put him in as a midfielder and it's the team's ability to perform that you put a limit on. You put him in as a battering ram or no10 and similarly it effects the way the whole team is able to play. You basically create a level it's not possible for the team to get beyond, so you're relying on luck and individual moments, which are never enough on their own.
Problem is I don't think we do have a solution. Schneiderlin's performances have been completely inadequate, to the point I understand picking Fellaini ahead of him. Herrera's fine there but not the answer in every game. Carrick's been poor for ages now. Blind I wouldn't mind seeing given an actual chance there as he never really got that under LVG (he played him there in that ridiculous system where the midfield would end up literally just being Blind)...but again think ideally we need better.
We need to find some way to at least make it functional and I'm sure that's possible, but I don't see where Fellaini fits into that. You can't make him into something he isn't.
Squawka doesn't mean much like @Invictus said. This season: http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...ered/fouls_committed/total_backward_passes#90Almost every pass he makes is backwards or sideways, his pass completition will always be better than those who are trying to do something with it further up the pitch. As an example, last season compared to these players his average pass length was the shortest and he played the fewest forward passes
Forward passes the same as Herrera with Herrera making 10 more backward passes every 90 minutes yet everyone will agree Herrera should be in the starting lineup ahead of him.
Credit to most people in here being sensible about Fellaini.
The truth is that with Fellaini and Pogba we lack balance in midfield.
Fellaini has done well so far this season, for most parts he has done his job, but we need a better distributor in midfield.
Pogba is a first choice no matter what, but put Schweinsteiger next to Fellaini and the balance would be perfectly fine. He can actually fit in the side, you just have to balance it out right, like with most players.
The truth is that with Fellaini and Pogba we lack balance in midfield.
Fellaini has done well so far this season, for most parts he has done his job, but we need a better distributor in midfield.
Pogba is a first choice no matter what, but put Schweinsteiger next to Fellaini and the balance would be perfectly fine. He can actually fit in the side, you just have to balance it out right, like with most players.
We ll stated
Forward passes don't mean much if it is to someone 5 foot in front of you 5 foot outside your own penalty area. It depends where they went and to whom they went. If it is the start of an attacking move it's fine. If the recipient of the ball just then passes it back to the goalie, then what was the point of the forward pass.
Then why wasnt it last season? They both had more than enough chances and if it had been fine to play the two of them together, we could have saved a lot on Pogba
Schweinsteiger was injured most of the time and when he played he was partnering Carrick or Schneiderlin.
Schweinsteiger had 13 starts, Fellaini 12. If its as simple as throwing the two together you'd think that it would have happened regularly
3 manager changes (4 if you count Belgium NT) and Fellaini is still here. This will be ever a mystery to me.
It's not like he's best player in his role either. Like wtf
It's not like he's best player in his role either. Like wtf
I'm not picking the teams.
Last season we should have continued the Fellaini - Herrera - Carrick thing we had going from 14/15 imo, but we didn't.
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