You cant blame anyone but Fellaini for the poor performance (and that counts for every player). Nevertheless, he will continue to start due to his good displays before but if that continues, he will be benched again
27
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- Appearances
- 31
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- 7
- Assists
- 2
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- 7
- Red cards
- 1
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My god, last night was possibly the worst display I have ever seen by an International footballer. Pace - slow, touch - heavy, passing - shocking, heading- got outjumped most of the time, control - non existent, aggression - pussy .. my gran could have taken him.
Playing Fellaini as the DM was the problem.. He can't distribute the ball quick like Carrick or Blind, doesn't keep it moving. Moyes made the mistake last season, asking him to play as a deep playmaker, clearly not his position. But playing him as a box to box midfielder is where he excels the most, doesn't have to make too many critical passes, uses his physicality well and of course offers a perfect outlet for long balls from the back, meaning our CB's have an option other than "try speculative through ball or punt it long hoping RvP magically gets the ball"
Vs Soton they had no where to pass with Carrick getting man marked, and Fellaini playing deeper meant that all the long balls were just giving possession back to Soton. Passing to Fellaini was an equally bad option as Soton just swamped him instantly and he just gave the ball away. Also Mata and Rooney either seemed reluctant to drop deep and offer passing options. Towards the end, we were so much more effective in possession once Fletcher and Herrera sat deep and Fellaini pushed forward.
Playing 3 at the back means the rest of the team needs to more dynamic when not in possession, it's very easy to shut such a tactic down if we can't keep the ball moving. After all, we sacrificed a midfielder to play a back 3, so rest of the midfield and attack needs to work that much harder if we want to keep possession and play a passing game.
Vs Soton they had no where to pass with Carrick getting man marked, and Fellaini playing deeper meant that all the long balls were just giving possession back to Soton. Passing to Fellaini was an equally bad option as Soton just swamped him instantly and he just gave the ball away. Also Mata and Rooney either seemed reluctant to drop deep and offer passing options. Towards the end, we were so much more effective in possession once Fletcher and Herrera sat deep and Fellaini pushed forward.
Playing 3 at the back means the rest of the team needs to more dynamic when not in possession, it's very easy to shut such a tactic down if we can't keep the ball moving. After all, we sacrificed a midfielder to play a back 3, so rest of the midfield and attack needs to work that much harder if we want to keep possession and play a passing game.
Oh yeah I remember this guy from last season! Some posts from last season's Fellaini thread:
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And that's just a handful of his total posts all along the same lines, he's like the opposite of mad winger but applied to Fellaini. I don't understand why posters spend so much time attacking a player, objective criticism is fine, I don't know what this is but it's not that.
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Even if he gets back to his best form from his Everton days I still want him gone. You need to play to his strengths to get the best out of him (long balls) and that isn't our style.
There's a difference between the level of his performances and the way some are reporting it in my eyes - i dont believe he's been great but equally its been far better than anything shown last season.
Where i do agree is that last night was a level below his last few performances. Utterly diabolical last night....and he wasnt alone in that in fairness to him.
See I'd agree with that last paragraph entirely. He was shit.
I dont see what value his passing has brought? Carrick on the other hand offers far more in that department. With the way we are looking to play offensively, i do not know what Fellaini offers. I believe he's in the team due to his size and our vulnerability at set pieces.
I totally agree he wasnt alone yesterday so i should make that clear.
I hardly think we're playing to his strengths, its more like we need someone like him out there on the pitch. Our defenders can hardly pass the ball, and having him out there means long balls from the back are not just punts giving possession back but rather he helps win the ball and keep possession more often than not.
It might not be tiki-taka or the prettiest style of football to watch but it gets the job done when used right. I agree that it backfires spectacularly when he's asked to drop deep and be a playmaker, but he's been good when played further forward.
He loses a lot of headers in the air for a player of his height.
@Rozay
I just wanted to see what your opinion was now?
Last time we spoke I replied to this last season:
I was arguing his ability is better than a league 2 footballer but you were saying that's his level, do you think perhaps he is at least championship level now?
You also said this:
Do you remember those random blokes, could you get in touch with them? We have quite a bad injury crisis and could do with some signings I think in January, Louis van Gaal might be interested in scouting them.
I just wanted to see what your opinion was now?
Last time we spoke I replied to this last season:
Rozay said:
I was arguing his ability is better than a league 2 footballer but you were saying that's his level, do you think perhaps he is at least championship level now?
You also said this:
Rozay said:
Do you remember those random blokes, could you get in touch with them? We have quite a bad injury crisis and could do with some signings I think in January, Louis van Gaal might be interested in scouting them.
I think most on here were happy to see him have a bad game so they could say I told you so.
I think Fellaini on a whole plays within himself. You could see it yesterday after the big mistake, he simply stopped trying stuff and played it safe for the rest of the game.
Ironically I think it has something to do with his size. To win a header, you need to be aggressive and attack the ball. Most footballers are not midgets, so a slight leap and they can easily win a header against him (I remember Alaba winning a header against him last season). Fact is he goes in with the same tenacity as the smaller players he'll be giving away fouls all the time.
I think Fellaini on a whole plays within himself. You could see it yesterday after the big mistake, he simply stopped trying stuff and played it safe for the rest of the game.
I don't know why people get riled up about Fellaini one way or the other. It's pretty obvious what he's good at & what his limitations are & this has been evident in both his good performances & the bad ones.
We've lacked options in the midfield the last few years so I'm not going to complain about having someone in the squad that's a bit different & seems pretty determined to do well.
We've lacked options in the midfield the last few years so I'm not going to complain about having someone in the squad that's a bit different & seems pretty determined to do well.
Fellaini was very poor yesterday. His passing is not expansive and I don't expect much from him in that regards, but he is usually very good while playing short, simple and precise passes. That was missing yesterday.
The thing that disappointed me more was that he was losing a lot of the physical duels. That is something you expect him to do a lot better as it is one of his strengths.
My opinion of him as a player has not changed, I still think he is a good player who can at least be a squad option.
The thing that disappointed me more was that he was losing a lot of the physical duels. That is something you expect him to do a lot better as it is one of his strengths.
My opinion of him as a player has not changed, I still think he is a good player who can at least be a squad option.
He only got pulled back to DM when Mcnair came off and Carrick went into the back 3 though. Before that, we were surrendering possession just as badly — which in a way shows how we were just generally shite but also shows that Fellaini was also rubbish at the role he'd been playing in previous matches during those first 30 odd minutes. Wasn't making himself available for longer balls out of defense, and was either losing it or losing the challenge whenever the ball did come near him. Could have just been an off day for him, could be that he got influenced by the general form of the team, or could be that he (like most of our other players STILL do) reacts very badly to energetic teams who press him.
To be fait, even during his recent upturn in form, lots of posts have been along the line of "he's shown he can do a job", which I agree with. It's just that LVG needs to be very clear about the job Fella can do, and not ask him to do anything else, like make quick decisions under pressure. He's not a Michael Carrick that we can just slot into several midfield/defensive roles; the setup, his role and the opposition need to be right.
My favourite was the one that mentioned Fellaini "killing our swag".
What the bollocks does that even mean?
I'm taking inspiration from the RVP thread, and wanting to put my hands up and say I was wrong on Fellaini. Yesterday's game aside, he has deserved his place in recent weeks.
Good on you Marouane, I'm absolutely delighted you're proving me wrong. Keep at it.
Good on you Marouane, I'm absolutely delighted you're proving me wrong. Keep at it.
Imagine Fellaini in a bar, I wonder when he gets drunk if he's the kind of guy who will walk up behind somebody punch them in the back and when they turn around point to someone else.
I agree with what you say, but the Soton game different than our previous games in that they did their best to make sure Carrick got as little time on the ball as possible, same with our wingbacks. He was expecting LvG to play with a back 3 i think, and Tadic, Long and Mane did a phenomenal job along with Davis and Wanyama in limiting our short passing options. Fellaini then started to drop deep to collect the ball, but Mata and Rooney didn't at first.
Credit where its due, Koeman and Soton knew just how to counter us, and did it perfectly. It might have been a different story if Carrick had a better passer alongside him from the start like Herrera, or if we'd gone with a 4-4-2 diamond, with Herrera starting instead of the extra CB. Had it now been RvP's clinical finishing, DDG's saves and Soton general wastefulness with regards to producing a quality final ball/finishing, I think we'd have been on the receiving end of a resounding defeat.
He is certainly better now than he was playing at that time. He has largely justified his place in the team in recent weeks, just as Andy Carroll justified his at the weekend. I still believe that in terms of his footballing ability, i.e - controlling (with your feet) the ball, passing long and short, shooting, dribbling - his ability would not stand out at a lower level. Perhaps I cannot necessarily say for certain that League 2 is his level, if this were a scientific conversation, it may be ruled that it is instead Championship or League 1. I do watch a reasonable amount of lower league football as I have a fair few friends who play at those levels, and I am also a Leyton Orient fan (in addition to United of course). I don't see a whole host of midfielders with ability many levels below Fellaini's, I stand by that.
There are so many factors that go into the level a player plays at. I have heard footballers as gifted as John Barnes say that he played with players of greater ability than him when he was a kid who did not make it. It is not as simple as saying that my mate is not a pro, so he couldn't possibly be more gifted than Fellaini. Which leads me towards your other question. Yes, I believe I do indeed know people I have played withwho are not pros who have more footballing ability than Marouane Fellaini. And Andy Carroll. And Nemanja Vidic. Those guys have been coached well and have used some attributes to do their jobs at a very high level. That said, I do believe that my friend Joseph Sachs, for instance, is more gifted than Fellaini and a fair few other pros. Perhaps you think that is impossible given he isn't a pro, so we'll have to disagree here.
Out of curiousity, would you say that Fellaini is significantly more gifted than Jason Koumas, who I believe plays for Tranmere? Personally, I reckon if you took them both to the park and gave them a ball, it would not appear so. Likewise Jay Emmanuel Thomas. For whatever reason, he didn't make it in the Prem, but no chance could Felli do half of the things I've seen him do with a ball.
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You can't just pick and choose attributes, often what separates the most elite level player (such as those for Manchester United) with somebody at a mid table club is the psychological component, you can only judge him as a footballer not partial attributes, next you will tell me how Carrick is slower than some of your friends! How Vidic isn't as good a passer as some of your friends! How Ronaldo doesn't get stuck in like some of your friends! How Messi isn't as tall as some of your friends!
And you seem to imply Vidic isn't as good as some of your friends but he just applies his skills better yet the point of a footballer is not to perform on the training pitch but to perform in a match, the whole point is application of those skills, that's what you judge a footballer on.
You cannot say 'My friend has better ability than Vidic but he just doesn't know how to actually apply those skills in a football match'.
If that's the case then your friend is not as better footballer than Vidic.
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Fellaini is a player with a certain skill set, a player for situations and certain matches. He should not be a mainstay or a regular starter for a team like United.
We have to use him in the games which are suited to his abilities. Southampton move the ball quickly. You cannot play Fellaini in that sort of a game. LVG should know this. Liverpool is another team Fellaini should not play against.
A midfield three of Carrick, Herrera and Di Maria should be fielded regularly while Fellaini should come into the lineup if we are playing more physical teams like stoke crystal palace west ham etc. or teams that play with a slower tempo.
We have to use him in the games which are suited to his abilities. Southampton move the ball quickly. You cannot play Fellaini in that sort of a game. LVG should know this. Liverpool is another team Fellaini should not play against.
A midfield three of Carrick, Herrera and Di Maria should be fielded regularly while Fellaini should come into the lineup if we are playing more physical teams like stoke crystal palace west ham etc. or teams that play with a slower tempo.
My favourite was the one that mentioned Fellaini "killing our swag".
What the bollocks does that even mean?
It's pretty simple really.
When we're playing some nice football with him in the team it's 'in spite of him' and when we're playing utter shit like yesterday, passing's failing and the sky falls down ( his passing was at 84% completion rate, team average was 81% by the way ), our 'swagger' gets killed by him, it's basically some kind of aura that kills everybody's passing ability.
To some, that is.
As @Empire said, you are defining ability way too narrowly. Have you ever seen Abdullah, the football freestyle guy who busks in Leidseplein in Amsterdam? The guy can do things with a football that probably 95% or more of the PL could not do. He was desperate to play for Ajax and has had a couple of trials there I believe, but they arent interested. Not just Ajax either, Im sure he would love to make a living playing football for any club in Holland where he would surely make more than the change he gets from stoned tourists. But unfortunately close control and dribbling arent the only attributes you need. Or passing.
There will certainly be extremely gifted footballers who never make it playing professional football despite having all the attributes you need. There must be a big element of luck, being in the right place at the right time, playing well when the scouts are watching, playing in a position where there are opportunities at the club you find yourself at etc etc. You may well have a friend who is as good at football as many in the PL, I cant comment on that.
But just because Fellaini is never going to go on a solo run past 5 players like Giggs' FA Cup goal in 99, or be the best passer in a team, doesnt make him a Sunday League level footballer at all.
He was awful last night, but has been generally good this season.
I have to say though, even when he's playing his best he always looks like he has a big error in him to me. Whether it's letting someone ghost past him while he nonchalantly jogs in a random direction; elbowing someone and risking a red; a casual pass that causes a counter attack (like last night); or just general poor positional play that puts pressure on others.
As I said when we first signed him. He's fine as a squad player who can provide something different in 2-3 different positions; however I think Van Gaal should be looking at other player's to fill the midfield void permanently. Of course it may be the case that he is only using Fellaini this much due to the lack of first team defensive options; which would make sense.
I have to say though, even when he's playing his best he always looks like he has a big error in him to me. Whether it's letting someone ghost past him while he nonchalantly jogs in a random direction; elbowing someone and risking a red; a casual pass that causes a counter attack (like last night); or just general poor positional play that puts pressure on others.
As I said when we first signed him. He's fine as a squad player who can provide something different in 2-3 different positions; however I think Van Gaal should be looking at other player's to fill the midfield void permanently. Of course it may be the case that he is only using Fellaini this much due to the lack of first team defensive options; which would make sense.
You clearly spent some time digging up my Fellaini related posts. I don't rate him, and im glad we're spending more money on new signings. His days at a top club are numbered. Tick tock
Koeman definitely made the right choices tactically, I agree. In fact, I think that if every manager had the personnel to play a physical pressing game from the front, that's probably how every PL manager would choose to play us, it clearly bothers us and has done for the last few years. The frustration from the fans' point of view is that we'd looked so much better at dealing with that with a back 4 and Carrick sitting in front of it; I almost feel robbed of the opportunity to see if that improvement could stand up to one of the best pressing teams in the league. As it is, all we've found out is that we're still pretty rubbish at playing football with a back 3/5.
As far as Fellaini goes though, I really don't remember him dropping deep before McNair went off. All I remember is him trying to press close to the forwards, not really achieving anything, and then going missing when our defenders needed an out ball from someone behind their press. I agree that he went to DM after McNair went off, and also that he's clearly not suited to playing there. But my worry is that for those first 30 odd minutes, he basically couldn't do the things he's in the team to do — provide some physicality so we're not overrun, and provide a slightly more direct passing option in midfield when the short, deep passing is being denied to us. So, either: 1) yesterday was an off day, the whole team was shite and Fella's form was just a consequence of that, or 2) he's actually not that good at this role either, at least not when the opposition gets physical and presses well.
Our midfield was better after Herrera came on. RVP immediately saw more of the ball
Was it thanks to those 19 passes that Ander managed to play during 60 minutes?
Yes, David Moyes, Louis van Gaal and the Belgium national team manager don't know what Fellaini is suited to, but you do.
No, I used the search function with your name in that thread and then copy and pasted random ones so I had a few, there are a lot lot more just like that, I spent no more than two minutes, you made it easy for me because most your posts were the same.
Whether his days are numbered is irrelevant, you thought you were vindicated in your opinion but where would we be this season without him? He has been of value defending set pieces, something LvG needed because of his defensive injury crisis and the lack of height in our box but also his height has offered us an alternative route to attack, the draw against Chelsea and the win against Arsenal, two games that could prove vital in our season, clearly using his height was something Louis van Gaal had worked on, I mean it's clear as day he target Gibbs.
Louis van Gaal was right to keep him and you were wrong to want him out of here. If we sign elite central midfielders then fantastic but they are not so easy to come by and there are other areas to also strengthen, areas of greater importance, had we followed your advice in the summer we would have been in a much worse position! You misjudged the impact he could have for us.
As of now he has been an important contribution in us having an excellent season that is to say where we are, how close we are to the leaders yet having an injury crisis so severe that might have caused Chelsea or City to drop a lot more points had they been the ones experiencing it.
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I am aware of all of this. My post explains that Fellaini has obviously learned how to be an effective footballer. He has been coached to fulfil his role, and fair play to him.
I'm just saying that I won't back down from my assertion that people at a lesser level have more talent. Obviously it is those people's own fault that they haven't made it perhaps, and as i said originally, there are various factors why a player doesn't make it to the PL. One of the most common factors is likely a lack of natural ability to do so, however, this is not the case in every instance.
I believe you can think Fellaini is as useful or effective as you like, but I think anyone who watches him play should not make a mockery of a statement that someone who does not play in the PL can have more ability. I mean, none of us are blind. He's clearly not a supremely gifted player. Just because he plays for United doesn't prove so. Even within the club - Fellaini and Di Maria are both United players and the gap in technical ability between this is enormous. Both serve their purpose. Fair dues to Fellaini, or Carroll for making it. Right place, right rime. Right attitude probably too. I doubt they would have made it as professional footballers if they were somehow in a Spanish or Brazilian academy at 16. It is likely they would have been thrown out for being further from the standard required than my mate Joseph Sachs or this freestyler you referenced.
I think over the last 2 decades, you have a fantastic chance of making it in certain parts of the world if you were fitter and bigger than the others, and had a good application. A position or system will likely be found for you where you are not required to be a particularly good footballer, but a team can make the most of the attributes you do have. Fair play to you, but the observation is still valid I think. Fellaini is bigger and stronger, maybe more disciplined and even intelligent on the pitch - but I don't think he's better at much else than Jason Koumas. That's all I'm saying. Not that Koumas should be at United instead.
I don't think people should react the same way if I say my mate is more talented than Fellaini as they should if I said Di Maria, or even Ashley Young instead. Quite frankly, I would think anyone who watches him, as opposed to simply saying 'not possible, he plays for United' will not find it that inconceivable.
I'm sure we have all heard countless stories of players told to leave an academy as a teenager simply because they were 'too small'. It isn't always ability.
Firstly I dont appreciate your tone. Secondly, Im just saying that theres a pattern. Its evident that Fellaini doesnt get about the pitch quickly. If certain teams move the ball quickly players with a languid style will suffer. like yaya toure suffers in CL games where his lack of mobility is exposed. Fellaini was exposed playing in a two man midfield last year for the same reason.
Im not claiming ive observed something unique. Its obvious. Van Gaal should have not have started him and shouldnt do so against liverpool.
Like I said, he has a certain skill set which managers need for certain TYPES of games. He is not a player who should start every game. IMO wilmots should be using nainggolan instead of fellaini. Its my opinion, it doesnt have to imply i know more or less than anyone.
Well I think having a different opinion to three top level managers makes it likely yours is wrong. The entire team struggled yesterday, yet this is the thread and player being discussed the most. It's laughable. I don't even like Fellaini that much, and wouldn't be disappointed if he was benched. There's just too many people blaming him for several glaring flaws in the team.
My opinion on Fellaini is a bit biased to be honest but here goes. He's done really well this season - especially this past month or so when it was needed.
I still don't think, even at his best, he's a top 4 type player. IMO, his skill set is useful and unique, but it has limitations. It's great when it works, but against the top midfielders in the world, I think he'll always fall short.
He's very useful in a "backs against the wall" type set up, but if you prefer playing a high tempo possession based game, I don't think he's mobile/technically gifted enough. If we need a box to box player, I'd prefer the strootman type over Fellaini - he's more energetic and mobile.
I'll gladly be proven wrong though and if it benefits United - then I hope he continues to prove me wrong. I just think he should be, at best, a great squad option/plan B option at a club of our size. (Without considering the price we paid for him etc). That's another debate.
I still don't think, even at his best, he's a top 4 type player. IMO, his skill set is useful and unique, but it has limitations. It's great when it works, but against the top midfielders in the world, I think he'll always fall short.
He's very useful in a "backs against the wall" type set up, but if you prefer playing a high tempo possession based game, I don't think he's mobile/technically gifted enough. If we need a box to box player, I'd prefer the strootman type over Fellaini - he's more energetic and mobile.
I'll gladly be proven wrong though and if it benefits United - then I hope he continues to prove me wrong. I just think he should be, at best, a great squad option/plan B option at a club of our size. (Without considering the price we paid for him etc). That's another debate.
I'm surprised that people are surprised Fellaini doesn't add that much physicality. At least not in the games where it's really put up to the test (i.e. not against much weaker teams at Old Trafford, who surrender possession completely)
The type of physicality and strength needed in midfield is miles away from the physicality and strength needed in a second striker role (in a team with emphasis on high balls and crosses.)
It's like Andy Carroll - It's not hard for him to be 'strong' when his task is just to stand their and literally muscle off defenders as he waits for a lofted ball.
Now ask him to be as strong and use that muscle while also turning about and having to use his brain quicker.
Ask him to out muscle a defender while dribbling or while moving about and being agile.
And what you'll get is what you got at Liverpool, which was Andy Carroll being knocked over quite a lot, somehow being made to look quite flimsy and lightweight (unless the ball was in the air) and on his arse quite a lot.
Bambi on ice.
Similar thing applies to Fellaini, though not to the same extent.
Notable example: Him losing the ball on the edge of his box versus Newcastle last season.
The type of physicality and strength needed in midfield is miles away from the physicality and strength needed in a second striker role (in a team with emphasis on high balls and crosses.)
It's like Andy Carroll - It's not hard for him to be 'strong' when his task is just to stand their and literally muscle off defenders as he waits for a lofted ball.
Now ask him to be as strong and use that muscle while also turning about and having to use his brain quicker.
Ask him to out muscle a defender while dribbling or while moving about and being agile.
And what you'll get is what you got at Liverpool, which was Andy Carroll being knocked over quite a lot, somehow being made to look quite flimsy and lightweight (unless the ball was in the air) and on his arse quite a lot.
Bambi on ice.
Similar thing applies to Fellaini, though not to the same extent.
Notable example: Him losing the ball on the edge of his box versus Newcastle last season.
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Firstly, in many cases an opinion is not 'wrong'. Its just an opinion based on observations. so i cant be wrong unless im basing my observations on something which is not factual. im sure there are many managers who dont rate fellaini, does it mean then that they are wrong too? or does it mean that everyone has an opinion and any opinion can be right at a given moment of time?
secondly, i too think many players were poor yesterday, but im not basing my opinion on one game. Ive always thought that fellaini should be used sparingly and only for certain kinds of games. If there was a way you could check all the posts ive made about fellaini you would see what im talking about.
im not blaming him. im merely saying that he shouldnt start particular games, eg. liverpool next week. its not a game i feel he would do well in. its unfortunate that di maria and blind are injured. it might be that we have no other choice.
Don't bother mate.... some people are simply obsessed with him...just ignore them
He was blatantly fouled in that example, there is a gif floating about.
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