[Ekeke]

I'm surprised that people are surprised Fellaini doesn't add that much physicality. At least not in the games where it's really put up to the test (i.e. not against much weaker teams at Old Trafford, who surrender possession completely)

The type of physicality and strength needed in midfield is miles away from the physicality and strength needed in a second striker role (in a team with emphasis on high balls and crosses.)

It's like Andy Carroll - It's not hard for him to be 'strong' when his task is just to stand their and literally muscle off defenders as he waits for a lofted ball.

Now ask him to be as strong and use that muscle while also turning about and having to use his brain quicker.
Ask him to out muscle a defender while dribbling or while moving about and being agile.
And what you'll get is what you got at Liverpool, which was Andy Carroll being knocked over quite a lot, somehow being made to look quite flimsy and lightweight (unless the ball was in the air) and on his arse quite a lot.
Bambi on ice.

Similar thing applies to Fellaini, though not to the same extent.
Notable example: Him losing the ball on the edge of his box versus Newcastle last season.

I dont think he's like Carrol. Carrol will win everything in the air regardless of the strength or size of his opponent

Fellaini will win strength battles against much smaller and weaker opposition as you'd expect, but when someone is actually some competition for him he doesn't look very strong. Why? Fellaini relies on his size, not strength. His sheer size lets him win some headers and dominate smaller, weaker players. Theres nothing athletic about it. He doesnt get off the ground very high, he isnt pushing people away from him with his strength. He's just big and athletisism and effort are secondary to that

 

[JackXX]

Had a poor game last night but I don't necessarily blame him for that. The team was unbalanced. Probably would have been better off chucking him up front to hoof the ball at the way we were playing.

 

[Speak]

I dont think he's like Carrol. Carrol will win everything in the air regardless of the strength or size of his opponent

Fellaini will win strength battles against much smaller and weaker opposition as you'd expect, but when someone is actually some competition for him he doesn't look very strong. Why? Fellaini relies on his size, not strength. His sheer size lets him win some headers and dominate smaller, weaker players. Theres nothing athletic about it. He doesnt get off the ground very high, he isnt pushing people away from him with his strength. He's just big and athletisism and effort are secondary to that

That's my point though. Carroll wouldn't win everything in the air if he was ever played in midfield. It requires a completely different way of challenging for the ball and using the body.
And he wouldn't look half as strong playing in midfield either.
It's a type of strength suited to that target man role.

I agree that Fellaini's about half of the aerial threat (and geunine strength) of Carroll though.

 

[Empire]

In fairness, footballing ability is an important attribute for a footballer.

What is this footballing ability that his friend has that is better than Vidic?

 

[Shamwow]

His 'footballing ability' is miles better than Andy Carroll

 

[Stack]

Firstly, in many cases an opinion is not 'wrong'. Its just an opinion based on observations. so i cant be wrong unless im basing my observations on something which is not factual. im sure there are many managers who dont rate fellaini, does it mean then that they are wrong too? or does it mean that everyone has an opinion and any opinion can be right at a given moment of time?

secondly, i too think many players were poor yesterday, but im not basing my opinion on one game. Ive always thought that fellaini should be used sparingly and only for certain kinds of games. If there was a way you could check all the posts ive made about fellaini you would see what im talking about.

im not blaming him. im merely saying that he shouldnt start particular games, eg. liverpool next week. its not a game i feel he would do well in. its unfortunate that di maria and blind are injured. it might be that we have no other choice.

Opinions are not always factual....

 

[Speak]

His 'footballing ability' is miles better than Andy Carroll

True. But (a) that's not saying much, and (b) that wasn't the debate/point. It was about people wondering why he looks so easy to bully, shoulder barge and knock off the ball, when he looked relatively strong at Everton.

I'm likening his strength in that role to Carroll's. It takes a different kind of strength as a target man or recipient of crosses than it does as midfielder.

Let's put it this way: Carroll and Fellaini (without saying they are equal as players) are more likely to get bullied and knocked off the ball in midfield than Sterling. Because their type of strength is useless in midfield. At least, it's useless when your brain and technique aren't all that.

 

[Empire]

I am aware of all of this. My post explains that Fellaini has obviously learned how to be an effective footballer. He has been coached to fulfil his role, and fair play to him.

I'm just saying that I won't back down from my assertion that people at a lesser level have more talent. Obviously it is those people's own fault that they haven't made it perhaps, and as i said originally, there are various factors why a player doesn't make it to the PL. One of the most common factors is likely a lack of natural ability to do so, however, this is not the case in every instance.

Define what you mean by talent and how you quantify they were born with more than Fellaini. You said they are a better footballer than Fellaini and even when you use the term footballing ability then you are talking about the actual realisation of potential.

How is it possible you can say "My friend is better than Vidic because if he had been coached by good coaches then he would be one of the best centre backs of his generation.", how can you possibly say this, for all we know for all we know your friend could be given the best coaches and still not actualise that potential.

I believe you can think Fellaini is as useful or effective as you like, but I think anyone who watches him play should not make a mockery of a statement that someone who does not play in the PL can have more ability. I mean, none of us are blind. He's clearly not a supremely gifted player. Just because he plays for United doesn't prove so. Even within the club - Fellaini and Di Maria are both United players and the gap in technical ability between this is enormous. Both serve their purpose. Fair dues to Fellaini, or Carroll for making it. Right place, right rime. Right attitude probably too. I doubt they would have made it as professional footballers if they were somehow in a Spanish or Brazilian academy at 16. It is likely they would have been thrown out for being further from the standard required than my mate Joseph Sachs or this freestyler you referenced.

Explain what you mean by a gifted player and also why somebody who has an insane work ethic is not gifted in that department because surely that also is a vital component in becoming an elite football player.

So now you are talking only of technical ability? But you do realise a football player is more than just technical ability? Again you said your friend is 'probably better than Fellaini' but you did not once mention technical ability.

The concept of luck can be applied to every player, Messi was lucky Barcelona helped him overcome his problems when he was young or somebody who had good parents and got them all the best coaching from a young age.

I'm sure we have all heard countless stories of players told to leave an academy as a teenager simply because they were 'too small'. It isn't always ability.

Surely physical limitation affects ability, a player who is Fellaini's size can never dribble as good as a player that is short and light, footballing ability is making the most of what you do have, that is the skill, your friend was unable to make the most of the tools he had at his disposal.

Lets also understand the post you made, you never once said technical ability, this is your exact post and it was not in reply to any other post:

I know a few random blokes that I have played with who are probably better than Fellaini. I think Lee Cattermole would add more to our team than he has this season. I think other than those adopting a 'support the team' policy, anyone can see he's a terrible player, who on a good day where we are not pressured at all, looks an average one.

At best, he should be used as a weapon from the bench in the latter stages of games to be a target man. Then in the summer, throw his contract in the bin and move on.

 

[Loublaze]

Even if he gets back to his best form from his Everton days I still want him gone. You need to play to his strengths to get the best out of him (long balls) and that isn't our style.

He's a % type player. Ugly stuff.

 

[Shamwow]

True. But (a) that's not saying much, and (b) that wasn't the debate/point. It was about people wondering why he looks so easy to bully, shoulder barge and knock off the ball, when he looked relatively strong at Everton.

I'm likening his strength in that role to Carroll's. It takes a different kind of strength as a target man or recipient of crosses than it does as midfielder.

Let's put it this way: Carroll and Fellaini (without saying they are equal as players) are more likely to get bullied and knocked off the ball in midfield than Sterling. Because their type of strength is useless in midfield. At least, it's useless when your brain and technique aren't all that.

That goes against what we've seen in previous games this season where he's used his strength to hold off and turn players in midfield to very good effect.

 

[Shamwow]

Our midfield was better after Herrera came on. RVP immediately saw more of the ball

Was it thanks to those 19 passes that Ander managed to play during 60 minutes?

 

[shivab]

Opinions are not always factual....

i never said opinion are 'facts'. opinions are based on observations of things we consider factual. ofcourse some interpretations can be completely nonsensical. but some things are open to interpreation, and the opinion cannot be wrong. eg. is fellaini united quality or not? this question is open and any opinion cannot be a wrong opinion. i havent studied philosophy, but i guess its just logical?

 

[Globule]

Deserved his start ahead of Herrera because of his recent performances, but he also deserved to be subbed with McNair before the first half was out. Was abysmal.

I can only imagine the reason he stayed on is because LvG envisaged that we might need a goal threat late on.

 

[Speak]

That goes against what we've seen in previous games this season where he's used his strength to hold off and turn players in midfield to very good effect.

Fair enough. Sometimes he's done a good job at that specifically.

But again, it's usually a similar type of scenario - He receives the ball in a stationery position. Maybe on the edge of our box.
At that point he has two things to think about: One holding off the guy as he stands still, and two - controlling the ball. Almost a target man role. It doesn't occur that often for a midfielder.

It's the rest of the game where you have more to think about, and have to actually move and be agile. His type of strength isn't all that useful.
He just seems to spend so much time flailing about once the ball is zipped about.

I don't have anything against him. But his strengths are not suited to midfield at all, in my opinion. The less thinking he needs to do - the better.
Get him up against the defenders' bodies and backing into them, and he's an asset. Or shielding the ball in the corners.
And there's a place for that in the squad.

 

[Shamwow]

Fair enough. Sometimes he's done a good job at that specifically.

But again, it's usually a similar type of scenario - He receives the ball in a stationery position. Maybe on the edge of our box.
At that point he has two things to think about: One holding off the guy as he stands still, and two - controlling the ball. Almost a target man role. It doesn't occur that often for a midfielder.

It's the rest of the game where you have more to think about, and have to actually move and be agile. His type of strength isn't all that useful.
He just seems to spend so much time flailing about once the ball is zipped about.

I don't have anything against him. But his strengths are not suited to midfield at all, in my opinion. The less thinking he needs to do - the better.
Get him up against the defenders' bodies and backing into them, and he's an asset. Or shielding the ball in the corners.
And there's a place for that in the squad.

I still disagree. He's got the skills required in his locker and he's shown them in the last few weeks. It's just when his head drops and he loses his confidence like he did last night he seems to forget that he can actually play football - this to me is actually the thing he desperately needs to sort out if he wants a successful career at United because we aren't a club that can rely on 'confidence players'.

Not a fan of compilations to prove points but it will save me time. 2.17 and 2.29 both good examples if you can't be arsed watching it all:

 

[Will Absolute]

What is this footballing ability that his friend has that is better than Vidic?

The bread and butter stuff: touch, control, passing. Not top four standard. He's also one-paced and lumbering. That doesn't add up to someone who should be in Manchester United's midfield, imo.

(He has major assets as well: size, head, chest and elbows() It's just not enough to make him anything other than a squad player who can be very useful in a a particular role in certain games.)

 

[Loublaze]

Was it thanks to those 19 passes that Ander managed to play during 60 minutes?

One of those passes led to a RVP shot that came off the side net. Afrotrash couldn't find a player unless he was passing back. Wanyama made him his bitch all game

 

[Shamwow]

One of those passes led to a RVP shot that came off the side net. Afrotrash couldn't find a player unless he was passing back. Wanyama made him his bitch all game

Afrotrash? Childish nonsense.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Fellaini
Average rating: 6.2
Your rating: 3.7

Caf rates him higher than I do.

 

[Kostur]

One of those passes led to a RVP shot that came off the side net. Afrotrash couldn't find a player unless he was passing back. Wanyama made him his bitch all game

Oh holy shit, get in, a pass that lead to a shot that came off the side net. Fantastic.

Actually, that match it was Ander who couldn't find a man himself with astonishing 70% passing accuracy.

 

[ZDwyr]

And has more goals this season, is a better passer, loses less physical battles

Jedinak takes penalties and has played more minutes. So yes he has more goals but that is a bit circumstantial. His passing is no better, I'd say it is worse. Physical battles would probably be similar. I'm Australian, I've watched Jedinak for his whole career. He is not better than Fellaini.

Also, it's bemusing when people come in here and say "For such a big guy he loses a lot of aerial duels.' The fact is that he doesn't. He has one game every two or three months where he probably loses more than he wins and people use that to criticise him. If Messi fails to execute his usual amount of successful dribbles in a match people don't say, "for supposedly being a good dribbler, he isn't very good at it." Fellaini is good in the air. No, he isn't going to win every single header.

 

[Loublaze]

A few 7/10 performances in his career with the rest being rubbish and all of a sudden he's

Oh holy shit, get in, a pass that lead to a shot that came off the side net. Fantastic.

Actually, that match it was Ander who couldn't find a man himself with astonishing 70% passing accuracy.

He created a chance. What did Fellaini do but lose challenge after challenge, fail to make a single penetrating pass or cross, get smoked by Wanyama and finally got punished for making the most stupid of passes to the opposition unchallenged? He was the worst player on the pitch last night. Im certain he has no big future here and I thank God. United need better.

 

[marjen]

Jedinak takes penalties and has played more minutes. So yes he has more goals but that is a bit circumstantial. His passing is no better, I'd say it is worse. Physical battles would probably be similar. I'm Australian, I've watched Jedinak for his whole career. He is not better than Fellaini.

Also, it's bemusing when people come in here and say "For such a big guy he loses a lot of aerial duels.' The fact is that he doesn't. He has one game every two or three months where he probably loses more than he wins and people use that to criticise him. If Messi fails to execute his usual amount of successful dribbles in a match people don't say, "for supposedly being a good dribbler, he isn't very good at it." Fellaini is good in the air. No, he isn't going to win every single header.

Losing three aerial duels in a row vs Arteta against Arsenal kind of defeated the point of having our entire gameplan in the first half built on lumping it long towards him.

Said it before: I just don't see the sort of attributes he brings, that are more useful than those having him in the team automatically deprives us of.

 

[Kostur]

A few 7/10 performances in his career with the rest being rubbish and all of a sudden he's


He created a chance. What did Fellaini do but lose challenge after challenge, fail to make a single penetrating pass or cross, get smoked by Wanyama and finally got punished for making the most stupid of passes to the opposition unchallenged? He was the worst player on the pitch last night. Im certain he has no big future here and I thank God. United need better.

He's made 51 passes ( of accuracy of 84% ), made more forward passes than Ander, made more tackles than Ander ( Ander did 0 ), he made more clearances than Ander, won more aerial duels so yea, he's done pretty much that match despite making a horrific mistake for the first goal.

And funnily enough, he really wasn't in Wanyama's pocket all match, as much as you'd love to imply it.

Oh, and you were making sure that he will be gone under LVG last season as well, you were sure that he's not a LVG player, so please, be so kind and drop your foreseeing attempts because they have a rather shit outcome.

 

[Empire]

The bread and butter stuff: touch, control, passing. Not top four standard. He's also one-paced and lumbering. That doesn't add up to someone who should be in Manchester United's midfield, imo.

(He has major assets as well: size, head, chest and elbows() It's just not enough to make him anything other than a squad player who can be very useful in a a particular role in certain games.)

I accept he is a squad player, Herrera might be competing for that role or even for number 10 in which case Vidal or Strootman will surely be signed, I can even see Valencia given a chance in midfield when Rafael returns but I'm stating he has been important to us this season and it's good we didn't sell him as so many wanted and he has shown he is better than most gave him credit for.

Footballing ability does not just include what you mentioned, you are being selective, it is his ability to use the tools he has and make himself as effective as he can, he isn't going to have the dribbling of somebody smaller, just like the small guy uses his low centre of gravity to his advantage Fellaini does his size.

One cannot play football without a body so that body is going to influence what type of player they become.

It's like being critical of Rooney for his lack of agility compared to league 2 wingers but then his body type lends to physical strength which can be an advantage for him if applied correctly.

You must judge a footballer as they are and Fellaini is not league 2 standard.

 

[Empire]

A few 7/10 performances in his career with the rest being rubbish and all of a sudden he's


He created a chance. What did Fellaini do but lose challenge after challenge, fail to make a single penetrating pass or cross, get smoked by Wanyama and finally got punished for making the most stupid of passes to the opposition unchallenged? He was the worst player on the pitch last night. Im certain he has no big future here and I thank God. United need better.

He's made 51 passes ( of accuracy of 84% ), made more forward passes than Ander, made more tackles than Ander ( Ander did 0 ), he made more clearances than Ander, won more aerial duels so yea, he's done pretty much that match despite making a horrific mistake for the first goal.

And funnily enough, he really wasn't in Wanyama's pocket all match, as much as you'd love to imply it.

Oh, and you were making sure that he will be gone under LVG last season as well, you were sure that he's not a LVG player, so please, be so kind and drop your foreseeing attempts because they have a rather shit outcome.

Loublaze and his warped view of reality. He watches a game but does not see what actually happens, he sees what he wants to see.

 

[Kostur]

Loublaze and his warped view of reality. He watches a game but does not see what actually happens, he sees what he wants to see.

Worst thing is though that those 'debates' simply turn into Fellaini vs Herrera for some idiotic reason, which I'd find incredibly not needed if I wasn't called to the blackboard.

 

[ZDwyr]

Losing three aerial duels in a row vs Arteta against Arsenal kind of defeated the point of having our entire gameplan in the first half built on lumping it long towards him.

Said it before: I just don't see the sort of attributes he brings, that are more useful than those having him in the team automatically deprives us of.

Statistics for this? I can only see Arteta beating him in one duel, while he won the other two.

 

[Sid234]

Koeman definitely made the right choices tactically, I agree. In fact, I think that if every manager had the personnel to play a physical pressing game from the front, that's probably how every PL manager would choose to play us, it clearly bothers us and has done for the last few years. The frustration from the fans' point of view is that we'd looked so much better at dealing with that with a back 4 and Carrick sitting in front of it; I almost feel robbed of the opportunity to see if that improvement could stand up to one of the best pressing teams in the league. As it is, all we've found out is that we're still pretty rubbish at playing football with a back 3/5.

As far as Fellaini goes though, I really don't remember him dropping deep before McNair went off. All I remember is him trying to press close to the forwards, not really achieving anything, and then going missing when our defenders needed an out ball from someone behind their press. I agree that he went to DM after McNair went off, and also that he's clearly not suited to playing there. But my worry is that for those first 30 odd minutes, he basically couldn't do the things he's in the team to do — provide some physicality so we're not overrun, and provide a slightly more direct passing option in midfield when the short, deep passing is being denied to us. So, either: 1) yesterday was an off day, the whole team was shite and Fella's form was just a consequence of that, or 2) he's actually not that good at this role either, at least not when the opposition gets physical and presses well.

I agree with what you say, Fellaini's two biggest weakness that makes him an awful playmaker are his passing and lack of dynamism to offer a short passing outlet and keep the ball ticking, especially when the opposition is trying their best to limit short passing options for the defenders. That is where Herrera really shines, and a 4 at the back with Carrick and Herrera should have theoretically countered Soton's tactics

 

[Shamwow]

Worst thing is though that those 'debates' simply turn into Fellaini vs Herrera for some idiotic reason, which I'd find incredibly not needed if I wasn't called to the blackboard.

Yeah I actually like Herrera better but it's hard not to have to play some form of devil's advocate when faced with such stupidity.

 

[Loublaze]

He's made 51 passes ( of accuracy of 84% ), made more forward passes than Ander, made more tackles than Ander ( Ander did 0 ), he made more clearances than Ander, won more aerial duels so yea, he's done pretty much that match despite making a horrific mistake for the first goal.

And funnily enough, he really wasn't in Wanyama's pocket all match, as much as you'd love to imply it.

Oh, and you were making sure that he will be gone under LVG last season as well, you were sure that he's not a LVG player, so please, be so kind and drop your foreseeing attempts because they have a rather shit outcome.

I dont have to imply it. The commentators mentioned it all night. I have the game saved in my DVR and I can point out everytime he lost a challenge if I have to. He was atrocious and turning a blind eye to it won't do you any good. You're trying to find positives in his diabolical showing where there is only glaring pieces of inadequacy. Fellaini was almost shipped off to Napoli and getting injured saved him from that outcome, so I wasn't way off.

 

[Loublaze]

Loublaze and his warped view of reality. He watches a game but does not see what actually happens, he sees what he wants to see.

Are you telling me that those statistics suggest to you that Fellaini actually had a good game against Southampton?

 

[Shamwow]

Are you telling me that those statistics suggest to you that Fellaini actually had a good game against Southampton?

Do you have eyes? You can't seem to watch a game or read writing.

 

[Kostur]

I dont have to imply it. The commentators mentioned it all night. I have the game saved in my DVR and I can point out everytime he lost a challenge if I have to. He was atrocious and turning a blind eye to it won't do you any good. You're trying to find positives in his diabolical showing where there is only glaring pieces of inadequacy. Fellaini was almost shipped off to Napoli and getting injured saved him from that outcome, so I wasn't way off.

Oh, right, commentators said it so it's alright.

And yea, you were so hard way off with your predictions that in the meantime he managed to stay at United, play some very good matches against top opposition in the league and become one of our better performers this season. Funnily enough, he'll probably start against dippers and more matches to come, he'll have more good matches and you'll be gone untill he has a shit match again.

Are you telling me that those statistics suggest to you that Fellaini actually had a good game against Southampton?

Your reading comprehension skills are really, really shit.

 

[Loublaze]

Oh, right, commentators said it so it's alright.

And yea, you were so hard way off with your predictions that in the meantime he managed to stay at United, play some very good matches against top opposition in the league and become one of our better performers this season. Funnily enough, he'll probably start against dippers and more matches to come, he'll have more good matches and you'll be gone untill he has a shit match again.



Your reading comprehension skills are really, really shit.

No worse than your inability to tell when a player is not starting 11 United quality. Fellaini is an option b % player. Once we have a full team and a settled system you won't see him as a fixture in the starting 11. I still stand by that.

 

[DWelbz19]

Fellaini
Average rating: 6.2
Your rating: 3.7

Caf rates him higher than I do.

Mine is a 4.3. And I thought I was the lowest.

 

[Kostur]

No worse than your inability to tell when a player is not starting 11 United quality. Fellaini is an option b % player. Once we have a full team and a settled system you won't see him as a fixture in the starting 11. I still stand by that.

Yea, on the other hand you're a walking book full of wise judgements as of who is and who is not worthy of being in the starting XI. What does 'once we have a full team' mean? You mean, when Herrera, Carrick and ADM will be all fit at the same time? I think that has happened before but it was Fellaini who got in ahead of Ander so something's not working with your, yet another, bold prediction.

Really, instead of tossing shit at him and making up arguments that are being mythbusted one by one just try to enjoy that we're winning games despite not being in top form, with plenty of injuries and even players that have been underperforming last season seem to have turned the tides.

 

[Sid234]

No worse than your inability to tell when a player is not starting 11 United quality. Fellaini is an option b % player. Once we have a full team and a settled system you won't see him as a fixture in the starting 11. I still stand by that.

Oh please, don't act like a spoilt fan!

We're not really in a position to be parading about who is and is not starting XI quality. I'd appreciate his contributions in the last few games. As difficult as it might be for you to admit, he has made an impact, a positive one, since his return from injury. I don't care if a year from now we bench him or not, I'm more than happy to see him contribute to helping us winning games.

I trust LvG to make that decision, and he's already shipped out or benched those he thinks aren't good enough or not in form. Also, he's doesn't give a shit about the price tag and reputation a player comes with. He gave Fellaini a chance, he took it and has done well. Hence, kept his spot in the starting XI. That is how a team should be selected, based on form rather than reputation.

 

[ravelston]

Statistics for this? I can only see Arteta beating him in one duel, while he won the other two.

Arteta won two aerials in total that game - no idea if they were against Fellaini. Fellaini won 5 aerials together with 12 defensive interventions (tackles, interceptions, clearances, blocked shots). He also had a team high 39 passes at 84.6% accuracy (only Rooney and Di Maria had higher accuracy) and was 4 of 4 for long balls (another team high). I'm not entirely sure what his critics expect of him.

 

[Empire]

Are you telling me that those statistics suggest to you that Fellaini actually had a good game against Southampton?

You cannot see clearly when blinded by hate, my friend.

Go back and read the post you wrote, the reply and then this post, this post makes no sense whatsoever.