[stw2022]

Only thing rubbish is your tedious posts. Rashford is 7th highest scorer in the league (non penalty goals), add the assists he is 4th best productive player in the league.

Goals are given for any sort of involvement by the player, which can be deflection, balling hitting the player who had no clue, poor cross attempt, tap in from couple of yards or a failed clearance which falls in place for a player luckily.

It's taken significance as it's an important stat, just because it doesn't fit your agenda doesn't mean it isn't.

But that's the problem. A player can play badly and get an assist. Or even score. This modern fascination with stats means that if a player gets an assist or scores he's had a good game. But that's never been the case and it never will be the case. Not sure anyone would argue statistics are completely meaningless but they do tell a very, very limited amount about a player. I think it speaks volumes when players get defended by people throwing stats at those noticing dips in performances.

You could probably find the worst performing player in the league each weekend and find some stat to justify why criticism isn't valid

"Played poorly? Higher pass completion rate than anyone else on the team mate!"

Etc

 

[roonster09]

Interesting. Seems the league has been a bit poor this year if a player with just 11 league goals is one of the most productive?

Depends on how you see it. Assists are key stats, if we ignore that then KdB will be just another player in the league as his goal scoring stats are poor. Include that, he is one of the most productive player in the league. Same with Rashford, he has 9 assists, which is 6th highest in the league with players like Son, Grealish, KdB, Bruno, Kane above Rashford.

 

[Bebestation]

Rashford does nothing but score - omg this guy is so annoying.

Greenwood does nothing but score - this guy is absolutely amazing.

People act like 23 is the age of prime. Where was salah? Mane?

The guy has had a back injury something which van Persie has said that incredibly changed his career more than he expected. He hasn’t had time to adapt to it.
People will ride players like Nani career when Rashford is already better at the age of 23.

complain complain complain

what a bloody goal vs Liverpool playing in his best position.

Fantastic.

worst low iq fans in the world who think this club is bigger than it is

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Depends on how you see it. Assists are key stats, if we ignore that then KdB will be just another player in the league as his goal scoring stats are poor. Include that, he is one of the most productive player in the league. Same with Rashford, he has 9 assists, which is 6th highest in the league with players like Son, Grealish, KdB, Bruno, Kane above Rashford.

Okay 17 is pretty good. You have to count assists imo. It's just not a crazy year in the league for end product. Feels like Rahsford got more last year for some reason.

 

[roonster09]

But that's the problem. A player can play badly and get an assist. Or even score. This modern fascination with stats means that if a player gets an assist or scores he's had a good game. But that's never been the case and it never will be the case. Not sure anyone would argue statistics are completely meaningless but they do tell a very, very limited amount about a player. I think it speaks volumes when players get defended by people throwing stats at those noticing dips in performances.

You could probably find the worst performing player in the league each weekend and find some stat to justify why criticism isn't valid

"Played poorly? Higher pass completion rate than anyone else on the team mate!"

Etc

There are some useless stats like higher pass completion and then there are important stats like goal contributions (Goals + Assists), chances created and others.

Depends on how you use it. No one said player's general play is very good because he has scored x number of goals with Y number of assists. But it would be foolish to play down the stats which shows how productive the player is.

Then you have people who think they are so good with "Eye test", praise players like Son. When you check the Spurs forum who watches every min of Son's game, they think he has been very inconsistent this season with very poor decision making skills. On the other hand, ManUtd fans watch the highlights and use him to shit on our players when highlights don't show the bad decisions made by the player or the number of times the player lost the ball. (Maybe it's hard to make good decisions in the final third all the time with so little time on the ball and space, especially for the pacey players. Otherwise we would be seeing cricket score in football game)

You have to defend attacking players with the stats when the argument is about productivity.

Also people don't just defend the players blindly with stats, they watch the player and then support their argument with stats, which is much better than "My eye test says this" nonsense.

 

[stw2022]

Why do clubs bother to scout players as they can just buy a paper and see 'Oh look 8 assists this year, let's table £32m bid'

The way football discussion has been reduced to '83% and 4 in 9 mate', is mindnumbing. If your opinion on having watched a player for the past year is indistinguishable from someone who just heard of him and picked up a list of highlighted stats then what are you even for?

 

[roonster09]

Okay 17 is pretty good. You have to count assists imo. It's just not a crazy year in the league for end product. Feels like Rahsford got more last year for some reason.

It's 20 goals + assists in league. Last year Rashford took penalties, this year Bruno is taking them.

 

[roonster09]

Why do clubs bother to scout players as they can just buy a paper and see 'Oh look 8 assists this year, let's table £32m bid'

The way football discussion has been reduced to '83% and 4 in 9 mate', is mindnumbing. If your opinion on having watched a player for the past year is indistinguishable from someone who just heard of him and picked up a list of highlighted stats then what are you even for?

Yeah, club invest so much money into analytics just for lols

Clubs hire statsbomb and other advanced statistical models just to throw away money.

How do you judge productivity of the player? "Oh look mate, I watched the player. He isn't productive, his end product sucks and I don't care about goals and assists".

 

[stw2022]

Stats are king in online forums and literally nowhere else. Sometimes it's like being in a book club with people whose only opinion is how many pages the books have and what the sales figures are that week.

Again if you're watching a player for a long period of time your opinion should be based on what you've seen. Rashford's performances have been poor for a long time. i don't give a shit about "75%" or '8 in 15' whatever the hell they relate to

 

[roonster09]

Stats are king in online forums and literally nowhere else. Sometimes it's like being in a book club with people whose only opinion is how many pages the books have and what the sales figures are that week.

Again if you're watching a player for a long period of time your opinion should be based on what you've seen. Rashford's performances have been poor for a long time. i don't give a shit about "75%" or '8 in 15' whatever the hell they relate to

 

[Alemar]

Marcus needs 2 more goals to set personal record on goals per season. He had 22 last season, now it’s 21 with 3 games to go

 

[Desert Eagle]

Yeah, club invest so much money into analytics just for lols

Clubs hire statsbomb and other advanced statistical models just to throw away money.

How do you judge productivity of the player? "Oh look mate, I watched the player. He isn't productive, his end product sucks and I don't care about goals and assists".

Go on then. What do the advanced statistics say about Rashford?

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Why do clubs bother to scout players as they can just buy a paper and see 'Oh look 8 assists this year, let's table £32m bid'

The way football discussion has been reduced to '83% and 4 in 9 mate', is mindnumbing. If your opinion on having watched a player for the past year is indistinguishable from someone who just heard of him and picked up a list of highlighted stats then what are you even for?

So do you think all the scouts of the other top clubs don't rate Rashford? If we would make public today that we are open to sell him, every top club would be interested in signing him. Rashford regulary gets praise from opposition managers as Pep or the latest examples Klopp and the Roma Manager. He is highly rated by many coaches. So this guys also "only care about stats" in your world?

Yes he has been inconsistent and had poor games as well as good ones this season. But to play down the most important thing in football, goal contributions, is laughable. Rashford has very good stats without being on setpiece duty, nearly all of his contributions this season came from open play.

I think the problem is that too many people expected him to become Cristiano Ronaldo 2.0 and turn on him now on every opportunity because it's obvious he isn't and never will be. Ronaldo is one of the best players of all time. I think Nani suffered from a similar unrealistic amount of expectations set by Ronaldo.

 

[roonster09]

Go on then. What do the advanced statistics say about Rashford?

Pay me the big bucks, i will subscribe to all the premium scouting sites like statsbomb, smarterscout and many more. Will give you the detailed analysis.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Pay me the big bucks, i will subscribe to all the premium scouting sites like statsbomb, smarterscout and many more. Will give you the detailed analysis.

So nobody has posted those stats in this thread then. So all the stats being quoted and wanked over are useless? Hilarious how you didn't see how you were arguing against yourself.

 

[roonster09]

So nobody has posted those stats in this thread then. So all the stats being quoted and wanked over are useless? Hilarious how you didn't see how you were arguing against yourself.

How are they useless when the discussion is about productivity?

At least read the post properly. The guy I quoted implied clubs don't use stats when it's just wrong.

 

[sullydnl]

Stats are king in online forums and literally nowhere else. Sometimes it's like being in a book club with people whose only opinion is how many pages the books have and what the sales figures are that week.

Again if you're watching a player for a long period of time your opinion should be based on what you've seen. Rashford's performances have been poor for a long time. i don't give a shit about "75%" or '8 in 15' whatever the hell they relate to

Apart from the recruitment and analytics departments in football clubs, where the idea that watching a player a lot means you should only base your opinion on what you see would be laughed out of the room. Which is why top clubs don't recruit players that way, or analyse performances that way.

The problem with stats in online discussions is that people apply them badly. But the notion that the eye-test makes stats irrelevant is at odds with reality.

 

[Desert Eagle]

How are they useless when the discussion is about productivity?

At least read the post properly. The guy I quoted implied clubs don't use stats when it's just wrong.

Because measuring productivity in sports goes way beyond simple goals and assists stats. Otherwise why would all these teams invest in analytics. Clearly they feel they'd rather spend millions to get useful data not the stuff people use to count fantasy football points.

 

[roonster09]

Because measuring productivity in sports goes way beyond simple goals and assists stats. Otherwise why would all these teams invest in analytics. Clearly they feel they'd rather spend millions to get useful data not the stuff people use to count fantasy football points.

They invest in analytics to get lot of info, that's not accessible for public, including physical stats.

When it comes to productivity (the number of goals the player has contributed to), goals and assists shows the involvement. Not sure how anyone can argue against the fact that Rashford has contributed to 20 league goals which is 4th best in the league. How they rate the player is up to them but goals and assists are factual information, not opinion based.

We can use the objective stats like goals, assists to see the productivity of the player or we can always go with agenda and the eye test to come to conclusion how Rashford is a midtable player, should be loaned out.

 

[Desert Eagle]

They invest in analytics to get lot of info, that's not accessible for public, including physical stats.

When it comes to productivity (the number of goals the player has contributed to), goals and assists shows the involvement. Not sure how anyone can argue against the fact that Rashford has contributed to 20 league goals which is 4th best in the league. How they rate the player is up to them but goals and assists are factual information, not opinion based.

We can use the objective stats like goals, assists to see the productivity of the player or we can always go with agenda and the eye test to come to conclusion how Rashford is a midtable player, should be loaned out.

1. As we established earlier productivity and involvement goes beyond goals and assists I hope you agree. Your definition is a very narrow one unnecessarily.
2. Nobody here has argued how many goals rashford has scored or how that ranks him.
3. Nobody has said he should be loaned out.

I suggest you find a few posters you disagree with strongly possibly including myself and search for our posts on Rashford. I would wager that if you only focus on the positive things we have said about him it might reduce this talk of agendas.

 

[roonster09]

1. As we established earlier productivity and involvement goes beyond goals and assists I hope you agree. Your definition is a very narrow one unnecessarily.
2. Nobody here has argued how many goals rashford has scored or how that ranks him.
3. Nobody has said he should be loaned out.

I suggest you find a few posters you disagree with strongly possibly including myself and search for our posts on Rashford. I would wager that if you only focus on the positive things we have said about him it might reduce this talk of agendas.

Maybe that's why you should follow the conversation, the argument was about his productivity, in fact on his goal involvements. The stats that shows his goal involvements are goals, assists. Then you can always go and fetch more information like xg chain and other stats.

Goals and assists are factual information, Rashford involved in 20 league goals and only 3 players are involved in more goals is a factual information.

Re bold part, would love to see those.

 

[Pickle85]

Without fence-sitting, as with most things I think the answer is somewhere in between the two extremes. I really like Rashford as a player but he's been phenomenally frustrating to watch this season. Whether that's been because he's playing through an injury or not (and if it is, surely that's not something that should be happening?!) The problem comes when people point to his stats (he's always seemed to be pretty productive) as a way of papering over subpar performances. At the moment, he's very much a moments player - walks around looking sulky for fifty minutes then comes alive for a few and sticks one away. We really need more than that from him and it's not like he's not capable.

Another issue I have with him is, if things aren't going right for you as a player then you just keep working hard until the tide turns. Too often this season he seems to have given up and started moaning and sulking. When he's like that, his floor is very, very low.

Again, I really like him as a player when he's at it and think he'll be a really important part of the squad for years to come but he really needs to shape up at the moment.

 

[Still ill]

Where's the joy, Marcus? Where's the joy?

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Without fence-sitting, as with most things I think the answer is somewhere in between the two extremes. I really like Rashford as a player but he's been phenomenally frustrating to watch this season. Whether that's been because he's playing through an injury or not (and if it is, surely that's not something that should be happening?!) The problem comes when people point to his stats (he's always seemed to be pretty productive) as a way of papering over subpar performances. At the moment, he's very much a moments player - walks around looking sulky for fifty minutes then comes alive for a few and sticks one away. We really need more than that from him and it's not like he's not capable.

Another issue I have with him is, if things aren't going right for you as a player then you just keep working hard until the tide turns. Too often this season he seems to have given up and started moaning and sulking. When he's like that, his floor is very, very low.

Again, I really like him as a player when he's at it and think he'll be a really important part of the squad for years to come but he really needs to shape up at the moment.

Very good post, would give a like if i could:-) I think you are absolutely right.

 

[Pickle85]

Very good post, would give a like if i could:-) I think you are absolutely right.

Thanks pal! Let's hope he can find his mojo again.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Thanks pal! Let's hope he can find his mojo again.

Really hope so. As you mentioned, he is capable of so much. Despite of him clearly being not at his best this season, he still contributed so much.

I mentioned in this thread yesterday that he looked up for it vs Liverpool and sharper again. So there is hope that he will be in a good state mentally and physically for the final and the Euros. (I know there will be discussion wheter he will start the final or not, but i would bet a lot of money that Ole won't drop him for it. And rightly so imo).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

So much debate in here. Rashford is a very good footballer. He has excellent end product and works really hard. There's some who get annoyed because his all round game can be sloppy and he isn't a top top player, but so what? He's 23 and one of the better forwards in his age group.

 

[Plant0x84]

Surprised to see some refer to Marcus sulking. I haven’t seen that. I see him getting frustrated that he is kicked from pillar to post, I see him annoyed that things aren’t working out or players aren’t making angles for him, but I wouldn’t say he sulks, certainly not in the way Martial and Pogba can at times.
I get the frustration angle too, but I’d much rather players like him and Bruno who try something positive that doesn’t come off than a player that always passes square or backwards.

 

[Gavinb33]

Stats are king in online forums and literally nowhere else. Sometimes it's like being in a book club with people whose only opinion is how many pages the books have and what the sales figures are that week.

Again if you're watching a player for a long period of time your opinion should be based on what you've seen. Rashford's performances have been poor for a long time. i don't give a shit about "75%" or '8 in 15' whatever the hell they relate to

Stats are king in the clubs as well or why else do they analytics departments for pretty much everything from training to players transfers, what an absolutely outdated mindset

 

[Dirty Schwein]

But that's the problem. A player can play badly and get an assist. Or even score. This modern fascination with stats means that if a player gets an assist or scores he's had a good game. But that's never been the case and it never will be the case. Not sure anyone would argue statistics are completely meaningless but they do tell a very, very limited amount about a player. I think it speaks volumes when players get defended by people throwing stats at those noticing dips in performances.

You could probably find the worst performing player in the league each weekend and find some stat to justify why criticism isn't valid

"Played poorly? Higher pass completion rate than anyone else on the team mate!"

Etc

Agree with this line of thought.

If you just read the stats for the Liverpool game, you'll think that Rash must have been ok with the goal he scored but watching the match, you know he was not very good at all in that game.

Stats are good to back up an opinion but they can also easily be misinterpreted by context (or lack thereof).

I remember when I used to work at this small TV station back when I started my career. In the annual town hall meetings, they always banged on about how they're the biggest kids TV broadcaster in SW London, but when you looked further into the stat, it was because they were the only kids TV broadcaster in SW London

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Stats are king in online forums and literally nowhere else. Sometimes it's like being in a book club with people whose only opinion is how many pages the books have and what the sales figures are that week.

Again if you're watching a player for a long period of time your opinion should be based on what you've seen. Rashford's performances have been poor for a long time. i don't give a shit about "75%" or '8 in 15' whatever the hell they relate to

People do overstate the importance of goals and assists at times but if you have a player producing them on a regular basis then that's a big positive. Rahsford does it. And he usually works very hard. Can he go up a level to become a truly top player? God knows. But if he doesn't we don't need to beat him up for it for the next decade. We can accept him for what he is too

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Stats are king in the clubs as well or why else do they analytics departments for pretty much everything from training to players transfers, what an absolutely outdated mindset

They use stats to get a better assessment. It's the only way to scientifically measure something.

But there's more to it than simply that.

Let's take player transfers.

Stats will be helpful, very helpful. But the eye test is vital too. Why else are there scouts?

Stats will tell you a lot about a player but will it tell you if they have a bad attitude for example?

Ozil is a prime example. Statistically he was amazing and yeah, to be fair, sometimes on the eye test he looked fabulous too.

But anyone that watches football will know you don't want him in your team if the opponent are pressuring like crazy and pushing you around the pitch. He used to just disappear.

Stats are important but there's so much more to football.

 

[Bebestation]

So many of you were jizzing about sterling.

my boy rashford absolutely destroys him with a broken back.

lovely player I enjoy watching

 

[stw2022]

His decision making with the ball is very poor given his level of experience. He isn't exactly a veteran but his age belies what his actual experience is. He's played getting on for 300 games at the top level. Most of them starts. There's a worrying lack of expectation. If he has a poor game immediately.....stats....Sterling....out of position....injury....he's only 23.

I just feel that we've been here before with Welbeck a player whose limitations were abundantly obvious at a similar age but some refused to accept it.

I don't think it's any doubt Greenwood has already kicked on to become a better all-round player. Rashford isn't a poor player but he is a limited player. if we made him available tomorrow I really don't think there'd be much interest from any genuine top side outside of using him, as we probably should, as a squad player.

 

[AltiUn]

So do you think all the scouts of the other top clubs don't rate Rashford? If we would make public today that we are open to sell him, every top club would be interested in signing him. Rashford regulary gets praise from opposition managers as Pep or the latest examples Klopp and the Roma Manager. He is highly rated by many coaches. So this guys also "only care about stats" in your world?

I didn't quote the rest of the post but I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Rashford can be desperately frustrating, but he also looks like he's on the cusp of becoming a top, top player. Like you said, if he were to be put up for sale tomorrow we'd have teams all over Europe fighting for him.

He's our first player since Rooney to score 20 goals in back to back seasons. Players like Mane and Son didn't hit their first 20 goal seasons until they were 25 and 24, Rashford's done it twice at 23. Not to mention he's by far the best "big game" player we have.

His decision making with the ball is very poor given his level of experience. He isn't exactly a veteran but his age belies what his actual experience is. He's played getting on for 300 games at the top level. Most of them starts. There's a worrying lack of expectation. If he has a poor game immediately.....stats....Sterling....out of position....injury....he's only 23.

I just feel that we've been here before with Welbeck a player whose limitations were abundantly obvious at a similar age but some refused to accept it.

I don't think it's any doubt Greenwood has already kicked on to become a better all-round player. Rashford isn't a poor player but he is a limited player. if we made him available tomorrow I really don't think there'd be much interest from any genuine top side outside of using him, as we probably should, as a squad player.

Welbeck wasn't even a fraction of the player Rashford is, Welbeck's limitations came from him being a terrible footballer. Rashford's limitations come from consistency, not from ability. When he's playing well he's an incredible player, he can beat his man with ease, has electric pace, has a great range of passing and vision, he's also obviously a very good goalscorer. At his worst he's still able to come with a goal or an assist which is a very rare and valuable trait. There would be loads of interest. No club in Europe passes up a winger with his stats.

His decision making does need to improve if he ever wants to make it to the upper echelon of wingers but he's hardly lightyears away.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

I don't think it's any coincidence that ever since he came out and destroyed the Tories the hatred of him among our fans has risen.

Has he been great this season? Absolutely not.

Has he been any worse than any of our other forwards? Absolutely not. He's got more goals than the rest and has more assists too.

Rashford does give the ball away sloppily at times. That's the player he is. He's not a tippy tappy player. He is direct and therefore he will give it away a lot. However in almost every game he comes up with a goal or assist.

Pogba on the left is no where near as good as Rashford.

Pogba should be playing in the middle ideally with a proper DM. Rashford left. Greenwood right. Bruno and Cavani up top with Bruno slightly deeper.

 

[sullydnl]

Some very harsh criticism here for a player who has produced as much as Rashford while playing through injuries and (when on the right) in a position that doesn't suit him.

 

[Canagel]

Stats are king in online forums and literally nowhere else. Sometimes it's like being in a book club with people whose only opinion is how many pages the books have and what the sales figures are that week.

Again if you're watching a player for a long period of time your opinion should be based on what you've seen. Rashford's performances have been poor for a long time. i don't give a shit about "75%" or '8 in 15' whatever the hell they relate to

The standards are in the gutter. reality of the stats and G/A driven era we live in.

Fans overrating players based off numbers while covering their awful performances by "goal involvements". Unfortunately there is no amount of stats that can measure football IQ and basic decision making but they will tell you that you have a agenda for expecting basic fundamentals and just throw stats around from the likes of sofascore and opta spreadsheets with zero context.

Ironically they are same type of fans that keep talking about buying a "Propa 25 goal a season striker" while our main rivals are out there winning Premier League's, Champions Leagues and FA Cups with no recognized striker and their top scorers don't even have 15 goals.
It's unfortunate

 

[roonster09]

Welbeck, Standards and a useless IQ post

 

[Canagel]

So many of you were jizzing about sterling.

my boy rashford absolutely destroys him with a broken back.

lovely player I enjoy watching

Neither of them will start for England at the Euros. But even if Sterling is bad at the basics he did won some titles with City while Rashford?? Football is moving away from speedsters that just kick and run with the football