[ZupZup]

Good thing I never said they were the same as friendlies (I watched most games by the way). I said they were glorified friendlies, if you want examples have a look at the Super Cup and Charity Shield. Teams take these games seriously but its simply not the same.

Pogba and Martial were injured during the international break yet played in the 1st game back for us. Pogba also couldnt start the game against Young Boys most likely because of that injury, so he most likely played through injury for us but not for France. That would never happen if it was the World Cup or Euros, players would want to play with a broken leg in these competitions, winning one of these competitions is once in a lifetime.

Winning the Nations League will take a long while to have the same level of gravitas as the World Cup. And so is not a yardstick for international excellence.

For the most part, you are talking rubbish mate. Whilst the Nations League won't have the gravitas of the Euro's or the WC... that's hardly a surprise giving this is the first ever competition whereas they have both been played for years.

Anyone watching these matches, which you claim to... can quite easily see how seriously the teams are taking them. You can easily see it in the celebrations at the end of matches and how players react when they lose. That's even ignoring how competitive and intense the matches have been. There has been nothing friendly about them.

 

[Mick321]

The amount of time he spends with the ball with his head down is pathetic for a premier league player. Who’s coaching this kid?

A manager who has no time or patience for young players and a manager who absolutely hates attacking football. No wonder he's not developing.

 

[EngimaMK]

Calmness in front of goal is near impossible to develop, you either have it or you don't. Players like Aguero, Kane, Icardi had elite level finishing in their late teens or early twenties.

Tell that to Didier Drogba

 

[11101]

Tell that to Didier Drogba

Drogba wasn't a great striker because he was a prolific finisher. He only scored over 20 league goals once in his career.

Cant think of anyone who developed that natural strikers instinct late in their career.

 

[roonster09]

Drogba wasn't a great striker because he was a prolific finisher. He only scored over 20 league goals once in his career.

Cant think of anyone who developed that natural strikers instinct late in their career.

Griezmann improved his goal scoring a lot and in his younger days when he was 21-22 he didn't score more than 10 goals in a season

Diego Costa's highest number of goals in a season was 10 when he was 23 or 24.

RVP prolific seasons came late in his career, he wasn't playing as striker too.

Luca Toni's first prolific season was when he was 26 or 27

Zlatan was never prolific scorer in his younger days. He joined Juventus when he was 23 and his first 20+ goal scoring season was when he was 26.

Di Natale's first 20 plus goal scoring season was when he was 32 and he scored 20 plus in 5 seasons after that.

Lewandowski scored 8 goals in a season when he was 22.

Auba's first prolific season was when he was 23 and in French league. Then he scored just 16 goals in his first Bundesliga season.

Nistelrooy scored 20 goals for the first time when he was 22 and in Dutch league.

It's other way around tbh. Most of these strikers are not very prolific in their younger days. They develop as they mature as a player.

 

[VorZakone]

Griezmann improved his goal scoring a lot and in his younger days when he was 21-22 he didn't score more than 10 goals in a season

Diego Costa's highest number of goals in a season was 10 when he was 23 or 24.

RVP prolific seasons came late in his career, he wasn't playing as striker too.

Luca Toni's first prolific season was when he was 26 or 27

Zlatan was never prolific scorer in his younger days. He joined Juventus when he was 23 and his first 20+ goal scoring season was when he was 26.

Di Natale's first 20 plus goal scoring season was when he was 32 and he scored 20 plus in 5 seasons after that.

Lewandowski scored 8 goals in a season when he was 22.

Auba's first prolific season was when he was 23 and in French league. Then he scored just 16 goals in his first Bundesliga season.

Nistelrooy scored 20 goals for the first time when he was 22 and in Dutch league.

It's other way around tbh. Most of these strikers are not very prolific in their younger days. They develop as they mature as a player.

For some reason I found this funny.

 

[Meep]

A manager who has no time or patience for young players and a manager who absolutely hates attacking football. No wonder he's not developing.

Stop making excuses. Rashford himself is responsible for his own development. I hope he realizes this sooner than later, and do some hard work on his weaknesses. You get what you deserve.

 

[11101]

Griezmann improved his goal scoring a lot and in his younger days when he was 21-22 he didn't score more than 10 goals in a season

Diego Costa's highest number of goals in a season was 10 when he was 23 or 24.

RVP prolific seasons came late in his career, he wasn't playing as striker too.

Luca Toni's first prolific season was when he was 26 or 27

Zlatan was never prolific scorer in his younger days. He joined Juventus when he was 23 and his first 20+ goal scoring season was when he was 26.

Di Natale's first 20 plus goal scoring season was when he was 32 and he scored 20 plus in 5 seasons after that.

Lewandowski scored 8 goals in a season when he was 22.

Auba's first prolific season was when he was 23 and in French league. Then he scored just 16 goals in his first Bundesliga season.

Nistelrooy scored 20 goals for the first time when he was 22 and in Dutch league.

It's other way around tbh. Most of these strikers are not very prolific in their younger days. They develop as they mature as a player.

It's not a case of them not scoring in their early days, they weren't playing in their early days. Costa, Toni, Zlatan, Di Natale, Lewandowski and Van Nistelrooy were all still coming through the reserves, playing in farmer's leagues or playing way down the divisions on loans when they were 20. Rashford has played 138 games for us in top flight competition.

The best players in that list were all doing great things within a couple of years of getting into big leagues.

Van Nistelrooy scored 31 goals in his second top flight season.
Zlatan was being voted foreign player of the year and in the running for the Ballon D'Or a year after arriving in Serie A.
Lewandowski scored 22 in his second season in the Bundesliga.
Aubameyang scored 16 in his second full season in Ligue 1.
Van Persie and Griezmann were wingers.

Rashford is in season 4 in the PL and the most he's ever managed is 7 goals. Maybe we have rushed him through but even the ones like Costa who really did take a while to start scoring had significant other sides to their game before then.

 

[roonster09]

It's not a case of them not scoring in their early days, they weren't playing in their early days. Costa, Toni, Zlatan, Di Natale, Lewandowski and Van Nistelrooy were all still coming through the reserves, playing in farmer's leagues or playing way down the divisions on loans when they were 20. Rashford has played 138 games for us in top flight competition.

The best players in that list were all doing great things within a couple of years of getting into big leagues.

Van Nistelrooy scored 31 goals in his second top flight season.
Zlatan was being voted foreign player of the year and in the running for the Ballon D'Or a year after arriving in Serie A.
Lewandowski scored 22 in his second season in the Bundesliga.
Aubameyang scored 16 in his second full season in Ligue 1.

Van Persie and Griezmann were wingers.


Rashford is in season 4 in the PL and the most he's ever managed is 7 goals.

They were all playing regularly and don't know what Zlatan winning award has anything to do with this when you are talking about scoring goals. Most players improve with age and experienced.

Van Persie and Griezmann were wingers, funny how this is used when Rashford played so much of his games as winger.

It's also funny that you saying best players were doing great things as I can bet anything that you didn't watch Lewandowski in Polish league, RVN in Dutch league , Costa playing in Portuguese league and many others when they are of Rashford age.

 

[Cassidy]

Its quite silly to be debating his goalscoring record at his age, he is ahead of the curve for his age. Whether he develops or not is another question.

 

[roonster09]

Its quite silly to be debating his goalscoring record at his age, he is ahead of the curve for his age. Whether he develops or not is another question.

Exactly. It's just silly to say players can't improve their goal scoring when so many great players were not prolific scorers at young age.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

As frustrating as he was with his final ball and erratic finishing he was still the standout player for me,alongside Smalling.
Seeing his movement was a refreshing sight compared to Lukaku.

Regarding his finishing.I'm sure he'll improve but most of that is down to him.There's only so much coaching/management can do.
If he wants to be our number 1 forward then it really is all down on him taking his chances.With Lukaku off-form this is as good a time as any.

 

[11101]

They were all playing regularly and don't know what Zlatan winning award has anything to do with this when you are talking about scoring goals. Most players improve with age and experienced.

Van Persie and Griezmann were wingers, funny how this is used when Rashford played so much of his games as winger.

Playing regularly as far down as the third tier in Luca Toni's case or second tier in Sweden in Zlatan's case. Completely irrelevant to top flight football in 2018.

Pretty much half (63 of 138) of Rashford's appearances have come as a centre forward. Van Persie and Griezmann were playing a game here and there.

I don't see why people have such a problem with admitting Rashford's goalscoring record is poor considering how long he has been getting significant minutes here. When he plays as a centre forward he is scoring once every 4-5 games, and he's had 1 assist in 3 years.

 

[Dec9003]

So I take it you have forgotten when Rashford came in for Rom last season and we looked toothless? Since it has become cool to continuously bash Lukaku now?

Lukaku hasn't scored a goal at Old Trafford since about March.

 

[roonster09]

Playing regularly as far down as the third tier in Luca Toni's case or second tier in Sweden in Zlatan's case. Completely irrelevant to top flight football in 2018.

Pretty much half (63 of 138) of Rashford's appearances have come as a centre forward. Van Persie and Griezmann were playing a game here and there.

I don't see why people have such a problem with admitting Rashford's goalscoring record is poor considering how long he has been getting significant minutes here. When he plays as a centre forward he is scoring once every 4-5 games, and he's had 1 assist in 3 years.

Again not same nonsense about Rashford's position. It was only yesterday or 2 days back I posted stats when you made the same point. Mins was around 2500-3000 as CF. That's not 68 games.

Also if the player is playing in shit league and still wasn't prolific, it's not something you use to argue your case. It goes against your point.
Rashford is playing at highest level and against better opposition compared to others who played against poor teams and still weren't prolific.

 

[haram]

Lukaku hasn't scored a goal at Old Trafford since about March.

Ok but I was talking about last season. Apparently none of that counts.

 

[Cassidy]

Ok but I was talking about last season. Apparently none of that counts.

Last season Rashford had some poor form and also some good form. So did Lukaku

 

[haram]

Last season Rashford had some poor form and also some good form. So did Lukaku

More like Lukaku was one of our most important players and Rashford couldn’t fill his boots up front.

 

[Dec9003]

Ok but I was talking about last season. Apparently none of that counts.

From March to now is about 8 months, his terrible run includes last season.

 

[haram]

From March to now is about 8 months, his terrible run includes last season.

Which was two home games, one of which where he set up the goal against Arsenal . Are you forgetting the season ended, world cup and pre season?

Shameless attempt to downplay what Lukaku did last season.

 

[Dec9003]

Which was two home games, one of which where he set up the goal against Arsenal . Are you forgetting the season ended, world cup and pre season?

Shameless attempt to downplay what Lukaku did last season.

Yeah he was also injured for a part of it, the stat is what the stat is though.
Lukaku scored was it 16 goals last season in the league? When's the statue being built?
I don't mind Lukaku as much as most on here, but pretending he was amazing last year is cringeworthy, unless you went into a coma after the first eight matches or so.

 

[11101]

Again not same nonsense about Rashford's position. It was only yesterday or 2 days back I posted stats when you made the same point. Mins was around 2500-3000 as CF. That's not 68 games.

Also if the player is playing in shit league and still wasn't prolific, it's not something you use to argue your case. It goes against your point.
Rashford is playing at highest level and against better opposition compared to others who played against poor teams and still weren't prolific.

These figures are from the site you posted. Per minute, last year Rashford scored once every 258 minutes, and this year is no better so far.

Aguero, Salah and Kane were between 91 and 103 minutes per goal. That's how far away he is from where he needs to be. Even Lukaku was on 179 minutes per goal. Right now he's performing at the same level as Danny Ings and Andy Carroll.

You can complain all you want about what position he plays in, what minutes he gets and so on. The fact is he is playing as a winger because the manager doesn't think he's good enough to play centre forward.

 

[haram]

Yeah he was also injured for a part of it, the stat is what the stat is though.
Lukaku scored was it 16 goals last season in the league? When's the statue being built?
I don't mind Lukaku as much as most on here, but pretending he was amazing last year is cringeworthy, unless you went into a coma after the first eight matches or so.

Helped us go from 6th to 2nd. We have no real wingers and very little crossing quality to put balls in for him from wide. We actually had Valencia and Young at fullback the whole of last season which is hilarious. He did well last season, he is not shite like some people make out.

 

[Posh Red]

Helped us go from 6th to 2nd. We have no real wingers and very little crossing quality to put balls in for him from wide. We actually had Valencia and Young at fullback the whole of last season which is hilarious. He did well last season, he is not shite like some people make out.

Helped us from 6th to 2nd by scoring less league goals than Ibra did the season before?

 

[Dec9003]

Helped us go from 6th to 2nd. We have no real wingers and very little crossing quality to put balls in for him from wide. We actually had Valencia and Young at fullback the whole of last season which is hilarious. He did well last season, he is not shite like some people make out.

He has no excuse for his own shortcomings.
He certainly isn't shit, he's scored a lot of goals In his time in the premier league.
His problem is that this season he looks like he's put a stone on for every goal he scored last season.

 

[haram]

Helped us from 6th to 2nd by scoring less league goals than Ibra did the season before?

Maybe he brought more out of other players? Like Lingard? Ibra would always drop out and into midfield taking up space for others. Lukaku generally holds his position or drifts into the right and leaves space for midfielders like Lingard to profit. Lukaku was one of our best players last year.

 

[roonster09]

These figures are from the site you posted. Per minute, last year Rashford scored once every 258 minutes, and this year is no better so far.

Aguero, Salah and Kane were between 91 and 103 minutes per goal. That's how far away he is from where he needs to be. Even Lukaku was on 179 minutes per goal. Right now he's performing at the same level as Danny Ings and Andy Carroll.

You can complain all you want about what position he plays in, what minutes he gets and so on. The fact is he is playing as a winger because the manager doesn't think he's good enough to play centre forward.

Wow from other players at Rashford's age to this. Stop clutching man. Its just hilarious.

Since Jose took over, is mins as CF (from transfermarkt)
2016-17 - 1326 mins - 6 goals + 2 assists (165 mins per G+A)
2017-18 - 1190 mins - 6 goals + 2 assists (148 mins per G+A)
2018-19 - 239 mins - 1 goal

Funny how Kane, Aguero popped up when talking about great players who weren't prolific at going age

 

[Posh Red]

Maybe he brought more out of other players? Like Lingard? Ibra would always drop out and into midfield taking up space for others. Lukaku generally holds his position or drifts into the right and leaves space for midfielders like Lingard to profit. Lukaku was one of our best players last year.

Agree to disagree on this one. I think there were other factors that lead to our improved league position. A good but not great season for Lukaku IMO.

 

[haram]

Agree to disagree on this one. I think there were other factors that lead to our improved league position. A good but not great season for Lukaku IMO.

Fair enough. What do you think those other factors were?

 

[Cassidy]

More like Lukaku was one of our most important players and Rashford couldn’t fill his boots up front.

The point wasn't to compare, was to say both payers struggled for form last season. Lukaku went 20 games scoring only 4 as a striker.

 

[Posh Red]

Fair enough. What do you think those other factors were?

I actually think we were pretty lucky all round last season (sounds daft I know) and Matic started the season really well. I'm just not a fan of Lukaku to be honest so maybe I'm slightly biased.

 

[11101]

Wow from other players at Rashford's age to this. Stop clutching man. Its just hilarious.

Since Jose took over, is mins as CF (from transfermarkt)
2016-17 - 1326 mins - 6 goals + 2 assists (165 mins per G+A)
2017-18 - 1190 mins - 6 goals + 2 assists (148 mins per G+A)
2018-19 - 239 mins - 1 goal

Funny how Kane, Aguero popped up when talking about great players who weren't prolific at going age

Don't start twisting the figures to make him look better (not that those are good figures). He's a striker at Manchester United, he needs goals and he needs them in the league. As a centre forward:

2015-16 - 1 every 172 minutes
2016-17 - 1 every 316 minutes
2017-18 - 1 every 355 minutes
2018-19 - 1 every 239 minutes, actually just 1 so far

In no way, shape, or form are those acceptable stats for a Manchester United striker and the worrying thing is every season he has completed he has gotten worse.

 

[RedSky]

PL and Europe Stats Only

2015/2016 - LVG
1088 mins
26 shots
11 on target
7 goals
27% conversion rate

2015/2016 - Jose Season 1
2440 mins
63 shots
25 on target
6 goals
10% conversion rate

2016/2017 - Jose Season 2
2155 mins
80 shots
27 on target
10 goals
13% conversion rate

2017/2018 - Jose Season 3
869 mins
25 shots
8 on target
2 goals
8% conversion rate

The stark difference in his conversion rate from his opening season to this season to all of Joses' seasons is frankly stunning. He averaged less shots in his first season, 1 shot every 42mins with a goal every 155mins. Now he's at 1 shot every 35mins with 1 goal every 435mins. In other words, he's got significantly worse in front of goal despite taking more shots on. Was the first season merely a fluke, or has Jose dragged his level down? It's worth pointing out that Martial has improved his shooting stats with Jose (takes more shots on) but his conversion rate has lowered as well.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

As frustrating as he was with his final ball and erratic finishing he was still the standout player for me,alongside Smalling.
Seeing his movement was a refreshing sight compared to Lukaku.

Regarding his finishing.I'm sure he'll improve but most of that is down to him.There's only so much coaching/management can do.
If he wants to be our number 1 forward then it really is all down on him taking his chances.With Lukaku off-form this is as good a time as any.

I understand the need for movement, but I can't believe that for 2 of our most prominent youngsters (JLingz feels/acts young anyway), the only thing we are hanging our hat on is freaking movement. The sooner we emphasize technical ability, the sooner we will be able to actually keep the ball against our opponents. I'm no scout so I could be wrong, but movement has got to be down the list of things scouts are looking for.

 

[roonster09]

Don't start twisting the figures to make him look better (not that those are good figures). He's a striker at Manchester United, he needs goals and he needs them in the league. As a centre forward:

2015-16 - 1 every 172 minutes
2016-17 - 1 every 316 minutes
2017-18 - 1 every 355 minutes
2018-19 - 1 every 239 minutes, actually just 1 so far

In no way, shape, or form are those acceptable stats for a Manchester United striker and the worrying thing is every season he has completed he has gotten worse.

So goals scored in other competitios are ignored, where he actually played as striker and for some reason assists are not important.

Again goal posts are moved. Discussion want when whether his goal scoring record is good now, it's some silly claim that gaol scoring can't be improved.

 

[roonster09]

PL and Europe Stats Only

2015/2016 - LVG
1088 mins
26 shots
11 on target
7 goals
27% conversion rate

2015/2016 - Jose Season 1
2440 mins
63 shots
25 on target
6 goals
10% conversion rate

2016/2017 - Jose Season 2
2155 mins
80 shots
27 on target
10 goals
13% conversion rate

2017/2018 - Jose Season 3
869 mins
25 shots
8 on target
2 goals
8% conversion rate

The stark difference in his conversion rate from his opening season to this season to all of Joses' seasons is frankly stunning. He averaged less shots in his first season, 1 shot every 42mins with a goal every 155mins. Now he's at 1 shot every 35mins with 1 goal every 435mins. In other words, he's got significantly worse in front of goal despite taking more shots on. Was the first season merely a fluke, or has Jose dragged his level down? It's worth pointing out that Martial has improved his shooting stats with Jose (takes more shots on) but his conversion rate has lowered as well.

Tbf first season he played as CF so his shots are closer and clear cut. Under Jose he played as winger which means many attempts are from long range or half chances.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

I understand the need for movement, but I can't believe that for 2 of our most prominent youngsters (JLingz feels/acts young anyway), the only thing we are hanging our hat on is freaking movement. The sooner we emphasize technical ability, the sooner we will be able to actually keep the ball against our opponents. I'm no scout so I could be wrong, but movement has got to be down the list of things scouts are looking for.

I know where you're coming from with regards to people harping on about movement,especially in Lingard's case.But as a forward movement plays a big deal,especially if your team is getting pushed back or in the need of a quick transition on the counter.Lukuka himself is getting criticised for his lack of movement uptop and rightly so.

I'm confident that over time Rashford's finishing will improve.He seems like a dedicated individual.Plus I do think he's a far more rounded forward than Lukaku when Rashford is on form,especially on the ground.
We just need to persevere with him.

 

[11101]

So goals scored in other competitios are ignored, where he actually played as striker and for some reason assists are not important.

Again goal posts are moved. Discussion want when whether his goal scoring record is good now, it's some silly claim that gaol scoring can't be improved.

Do you really think scoring once every 355 minutes is a good enough return for a Manchester United centre forward? So far we've established:

- Almost all top strikers start scoring significant goal tallies within 2 or 3 years of getting into a top tier league.
- To lead the line for a top club in England you need to be scoring at a rate of roughly a goal every 100-150 minutes.
- To establish yourself you need to show consistent improvement year on year.
- Outside of stats, you need to show you can be relied upon to finish in those games where you might only get one good chance.

Rashford is a long way off any of those things, and he's no longer some kid just breaking through from the academy.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

I really think Jose has stunted his development. Look at his finishing under LVG, it was clinical, ice cold and even sublime at times. Goals against Arsenal, Man City and West Ham away were all great (that Man City goal is one of my favourite Utd goals in recent years, as is the West Ham goal, love top bins). His overall game was also of a higher level then, look at his FA Cup final performance before he got injured against Palace; that convinced me he was going to be a top player.

I really hope he makes it and I won’t lose faith until i see him under a manager more suited to his ability and skill.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

I really think Jose has stunted his development. Look at his finishing under LVG, it was clinical, ice cold and even sublime at times. Goals against Arsenal, Man City and West Ham away were all great (that Man City goal is one of my favourite Utd goals in recent years, as is the West Ham goal, love top bins). His overall game was also of a higher level then, look at his FA Cup final performance before he got injured against Palace; that convinced me he was going to be a top player.

I really hope he makes it and I won’t lose faith until i see him under a manager more suited to his ability and skill.

Other than the obvious element of the unknown,with regards to the opposition not knowing a great deal about Marcus,I tend to agree with this.
Until we see a more consistent offensive style then there will alway be that sense of doubt amongst our forward players who are clearly struggling under Jose's management.