Marcos Alonso to stop taking the knee

Trequarista10 said:
I don't really understand the argument that "it's no longer having an impact" - what metrics are, or could possibly be used, to measure what impact its having?

It's not and never could be something that will change things overnight, it's about making people think and reflect, and resulting change could only possibly emerge over many years (generations, possibly). Sure initially it might have had a burst of immediate impact, but beyond that it's a message that needs repetition and consistency.
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because now its just part of the pre match routine, like lining up for the handshakes which were supposedly about respect before both sides proceeded to try and cheat at every opportunity for the next 90 minutes.

Personally I don't think it has any effect and hasn't since the end of the 19-20 season as it just became routine I think there needs to be a more tangible action but I have no idea what that could be.

Also the irony of saying a white player isn't allowed to have a view on this being incredibly racist has been lost on most in this thread I see.
 
Moby said:
The purpose is awareness. Something like racism isn't gonna be eradicated overnight, so if that is your goal then there isn't a single plan that can achieve that. The first step to every problem is awareness, and even if 5-10 fans out of those watching every game come to know just how bad making a racist comment or gesture - even if not meant in a racist manner - is and the fact that every player is willing to display their reaction to everyone watching, it is good enough and making a difference.
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Why don't you answer his question? Are you prepared to let players take the knee permanently? As in, forever? We're already seeing players forget about it and immediately kick off the game. Even non-white players themselves, such as Sadio Mane forgot it.

Surely there are other ways to more effectively combat racism and bring awareness.
 
It often seems that the ones saying these protests, and others like them have run their course and things aren't all better yet tend to come from mostly rich white guys.

The good news is that rich white guys never have a hidden agenda.

I want a quick fix for this racism thing. If you don't have a solution that can solve the issue in say six months then is it really something worth doing at all?

Sincerely,

Rich white guy.
 
VorZakone said:
Surely there are other ways to more effectively combat racism and bring awareness.
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There's no competition of what's more or less effective when talking about awareness, every littlest bit counts and this is actually something far more than that, something that is done by players a lot of people especially young ones idolize, something that is done with cameras from all across the world pointing at it going to places you don't even know of. I can literally give you examples I've seen personally who have been educated thanks to this.

What's incredibly strange and sad is that you need to come up with lengthy explanations for a footballer sitting on one knee for less than 5 seconds and how people seem to argue against it given it is such a miniscule effort that requires absolutely nothing. You have to be really absurd to be having such an objection by something that affects no one in any negative way whatsoever.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:


Alsonso playing to his base, I guess.
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Who is worse? The jackwads that won't let the guy one the train or everyone standing around and watching it happen? I think that bugs me more when seeing this kind of video, often no one comes to help and either walk away or act like they are not seeing anything worthy of getting involved with.
 
Moby said:
There's no competition of what's more or less effective when talking about awareness, every littlest bit counts and this is actually something far more than that, something that is done by players a lot of people especially young ones idolize, something that is done with cameras from all across the world pointing at it going to places you don't even know of. I can literally give you examples I've seen personally who have been educated thanks to this.

What's incredibly strange and sad is that you need to come up with lengthy explanations for a footballer sitting on one knee for less than 5 seconds and how people seem to argue against it given it is such a miniscule effort that requires absolutely nothing. You have to be really absurd to be having such an objection by something that affects no one in any negative way whatsoever.
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You come across as quite entitled to what footballers should do. This was Brentford's position somewhere early this year with player Ivan Toney saying this:
Championship side Brentford have also said their players won't take the knee, with striker Ivan Toney telling Sky Sports: "We are being used as puppets."
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Threesus said:
Wait, what are his reasons for doing so? I feel like people are expecting everyone to suddenly stop hurling racist abuse and if not, feel like the gesture is not working. Things like these take time, so they should continue to take the knee.
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Maybe thinking you are supporting a political movement rather than anti racism?
 
Jimmy Skitz said:
because now its just part of the pre match routine, like lining up for the handshakes which were supposedly about respect before both sides proceeded to try and cheat at every opportunity for the next 90 minutes.

Personally I don't think it has any effect and hasn't since the end of the 19-20 season as it just became routine I think there needs to be a more tangible action but I have no idea what that could be.

Also the irony of saying a white player isn't allowed to have a view on this being incredibly racist has been lost on most in this thread I see.
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I think the thread has been alright tbh, certainly better than it would have been on the current events forum here which is truly awful. I think it can seem like people are saying he can't have an opinion as there's a lot of people being critical, but looking at each post individually the vast majority aren't questioning his right to have an opinion. I certainly think all players should have that right, without consequence (including being accused of being racist for their opinion, which admittedly a couple posts might have veered towards, although possibly tongue in cheek and seemingly more in relation to Farages weird comment about not kneeling being decent, which appears utterly bizarre).

I just genuinely disagree on stopping because it's not having an impact. I mean, it might not be having an impact, but there's no possible way to measure that. I wouldn't write off things that have intangible results as being meaningless. In fact, in my experience I'm probably someone whose opinion on it has changed more recently so I'm glad it persisted. I disliked at first as I thought it was too interlinked with events involving American cops, but its been nicely adjusted a bit to be a more general message about discrimination and prejudice. Continuing with it would I expect get more and more people on board with the message. I hope. Although I was on board with message just not the delivery, so I don't know if it can change people who aren't on board with the message in the first place, but then if it has an impact on young kids watching then surely it will prevent/help overcome prejudice earlier...I wonder how many kids each weekend ask their parents why the players (their role models!) are kneeling, surely that will be beneficial just by prompting these kids to ask that question..
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:



Ahh Marcos Alonso, the moral compass of football. He’s predictably drawn some high profile support for this brave step

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When Nigel Farage praises you, probably something needs to tell you that you've fecked up in a big way.
 
Combating apathy is more important than Combating overt racism. If a fraction of those who pretended to care actually did and contributed to something tangible we might make some progress on this and other issues.

Routine creates apathy, develop the conversation in challenging ways, get the fans involved.
 
Bobski said:
Combating apathy is more important than Combating overt racism. If a fraction of those who pretended to care actually did and contributed to something tangible we might make some progress on this and other issues.

Routine creates apathy, develop the conversation in challenging ways, get the fans involved.
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You really believe that is what Alonso is trying to do here, under the applauds from Nigel Farage?
 
Moby said:
If that's an actual question then the answer is pretty easy - the jackwads are far worse.
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I think we are fighting from the same side here so I am not trying to pick a fight with you (and this isn't the best example / a trainload of drunk idiots), but people who ignore racism that is happening right in front of them are damn near as guilty as the ones doing it.
 
NewGlory said:
You really believe that is what Alonso is trying to do here, under the applauds from Nigel Farage?
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Nigel Farage opportunistically trying to see some sort of victory in alonsos decision is no different to hysterics on other end saying its racist not to kneel. Neither are alonsos problem
 
I suspect the type of responses Alonso is receiving on here are the reason a lot of players haven't stopped taking the knee already. Are they actually still doing it out of a belief that it will have any long term effect on combating racism or are they just wanting to avoid the abuse they'll get for being one of the first to call it a day? Farage needlessly chiming in certainly hasn't done Alonso any favours though.
 
Schmeichel's Cartwheel said:
Zaha is someone who is directly effected by racism, he also ran his decision by his teammates. Alonso is not, nor did he tell his teammates. It’s different.
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This seems a little too definitive for me. How on earth are you in a position to outline what Alonso is directly impacted by? If you have information that I have missed, I’d be curious to see it.
 
NewGlory said:
You really believe that is what Alonso is trying to do here, under the applauds from Nigel Farage?
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I don't know what he is trying to do, while Farage is obvious, deeply unpleasant character. Has the thread not moved on to the overall issue?
 
I actually think his decision is political. No way he believes that he is more anti racist than the other 19 players.
 
NecssryEvil said:
I think we are fighting from the same side here so I am not trying to pick a fight with you (and this isn't the best example / a trainload of drunk idiots), but people who ignore racism that is happening right in front of them are damn near as guilty as the ones doing it.
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Would you have been willing to risk Chelsea fans getting violent on you? It's just a messed up situation for everyone involved but obviously the worst for the black man being refused from entering. When an innocent person is getting knifed by a lone wolf terorrist, will you say every bystander is "damn near as guilty" ?
 
NecssryEvil said:
I think we are fighting from the same side here so I am not trying to pick a fight with you (and this isn't the best example / a trainload of drunk idiots), but people who ignore racism that is happening right in front of them are damn near as guilty as the ones doing it.
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Bobski said:
Combating apathy is more important than Combating overt racism. If a fraction of those who pretended to care actually did and contributed to something tangible we might make some progress on this and other issues.

Routine creates apathy, develop the conversation in challenging ways, get the fans involved.
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Oh, can I change my post to Moby to say what Bobski posted? Close to the same thing but he put it out there so much better than I did.
 
it's his choice on which he has every right. no need to call him moron or racist becase of it.
 
Whatever his reasons, the funniest thing to me is that Alonso didn't think he'd used up all of his controversy points for this particular lifetime.
 
VorZakone said:
Why don't you answer his question? Are you prepared to let players take the knee permanently? As in, forever? We're already seeing players forget about it and immediately kick off the game. Even non-white players themselves, such as Sadio Mane forgot it.

Surely there are other ways to more effectively combat racism and bring awareness.
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1. Yes and think of it as an extra stretch when can only be helpful.

2. There might be but the same people will find a way of bitching about whatever that might be anyway.
 
Even if it's become a ritual gesture in his mind, the ritual gesture still sends an important message about what is not acceptable.
 
Stacks said:
Who here thinks a suspension should be considered and for how long? Possibly docking of wages?
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15 point deduction to Chelsea for failing to control their players and bringing the game into disrepute. Who bites?
 
VorZakone said:
You come across as quite entitled to what footballers should do. This was Brentford's position somewhere early this year with player Ivan Toney saying this:
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Ah the old one person (or even a few) from the targeted group of society thinks its wrong so the rest of said group must think the same way. Do you have any idea how childish that logic is?
 
Ramshock said:
1. Yes and think of it as an extra stretch when can only be helpful.

2. There might be but the same people will find a way of bitching about whatever that might be anyway.
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Alright, go tell that to Zaha, Ivan Toney and Les Ferdinand.
 
Ramshock said:
See my above post and come back to me with your 8 year olds logic.
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Your above post is not convincing at all. The casualness with which you disregard the opinions of non-white people on this subject is quite bizarre to me. But I guess we see this fundamentally different.
 
NecssryEvil said:
It often seems that the ones saying these protests, and others like them have run their course and things aren't all better yet tend to come from mostly rich white guys.

The good news is that rich white guys never have a hidden agenda.

I want a quick fix for this racism thing. If you don't have a solution that can solve the issue in say six months then is it really something worth doing at all?

Sincerely,

Rich white guy.
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Brilliant.
 
VorZakone said:
Your above post is not convincing at all. The casualness with which you disregard the opinions of non-white people on this subject is quite bizarre to me. But I guess we see this fundamentally different.
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What casualness? Are you really telling us here in this thread that a select few from a group of society reflects that entire group? I tell you what genius why dont you canvas every other black player who plays in the PL and see what they say?
 
VorZakone said:
Would you have been willing to risk Chelsea fans getting violent on you?
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I said this wasn't the best example to use, a trainload of drunk idiots. To answer your question, no I would not have stepped into that fray. But, I would have looked for an exit, said my piece and maybe I could have switched their focus and given the guy a safe(r) exit. I am pretty sure I could outrun any of those fat fecks in the front but doubt they would have got off the train anyways.

VorZakone said:
When an innocent person is getting knifed by a lone wolf terorrist, will you say every bystander is "damn near as guilty" ?
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You are changing the situation so not a fair comparison in my opinion. But, if you and your buddy are walking down the street and see three guys racially abusing/showing aggression to a man/women and you just keep on walking by, then yes, damn near as guilty. That few will offer any sort of resistance to their behavior only emboldens them to continue on. If they continue to get no pushback, things usually escalate.
 
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