[FriedClams]

Hilarious reading the criticism of him, he’s proved himself against the big teams this season and basically has a different partner in midfield every time he plays. He’ll be a nailed on starter at the beginning of next season.

 

[Cassidy]

. He’ll be a nailed on starter at the beginning of next season.

He is a good player but I am not entirely convinced about this statement

 

[FriedClams]

He is a good player but I am not entirely convinced about this statement

We will see, but given our limited funds I very much doubt we will be looking at replacing him directly. I think whenever he plays, our chances of opposition players just playing right through the middle decrease, which used ot be a massive problem for us.

 

[MadDogg]

He has one or two things in common with Fred, but for me hes also the opposite rather than all that similar.

Both have high stamina, energy and workrate.

Fred was an athlete, quite quick for a CM. But his skillset wasnt ideal for either an attacking midfielder - low end product most seasons, or a defensive midfielder - shat his pants when pressed in his own defensive third of the pitch and poor concentration leading to simple passes in his half going astray.

Ugarte on the other hand isnt that athletic, outside of the legs. He isnt fast or strong, he doesnt have a big leap etc. But he is mostly ideal for the DM position and not at all suited to an attacking role. Most of the time he's dependable defensively and sometimes he'll do decently or well when pressed in his own half. But he's not playing some of the nice passes Fred would play between the frustratingly misplaced 5 yard passes

I personally like Ugarte more because its straight forward to find a good partner for him. He does more than his share of the defensive work but not enough in buildup play, so you need to pair him with an offensive minded player who might be a bit light defensively. From our squad thats Bruno, possibly Eriksen on a good day and going forward those are the kinds of players we should look to buy next to him.

With Fred neither the defensive player nor the attacking player makes an ideal partner because he isnt either one. The attacking player leaves you too light relying on Fred defensively and the defensive player frees Fred up to attack more, but he wasnt that good at it.

I'd agree with some of this, disagree with other parts.

For one, I think Ugarte is actually quite fast for a midfielder. At least when out of possession anyway, I'm not sure yet if he can carry the ball with speed. Maybe Fred had slightly faster acceleration for the first two or three steps (and even then I'm not sure), but I'm pretty sure Ugarte would outpace him after that. I also think he's stronger than Fred in the upper body, but Fred had the lower centre of balance. Depending on how they ran into each other I could see either coming out on top. Fred obviously had better stamina and fitness though (very few can match him in that regard, but Ugarte has been disappointing so far).

I think both could play in a midfield two, but would need slightly different partners. Fred was more a box-to-box player, so needed someone like Carrick who could be the main playmaker while also holding their position defensively. Fred actually did put up decent attacking numbers in his last 18 months once we finally stopped playing him as the deepest midfielder. Whereas I'd agree Ugarte tends to be better at holding his defensive position (and is less likely to make mistakes in dangerous areas) so needs more of an attacking playmaker, with Bruno being our best option at the moment. The attacking playmaker is probably a bit easier to find these days so I'd agree Ugarte might be a bit more suited in a midfield two.

In a midfield three though I tend to think Fred would be the better option, although once again it would depend on the profile of the two partners.

What that means in Amorim's system where we have two central midfielders and then two #10's/wingers, I honestly don't know.

 

[pocco]

We will see, but given our limited funds I very much doubt we will be looking at replacing him directly. I think whenever he plays, our chances of opposition players just playing right through the middle decrease, which used ot be a massive problem for us.

That's in part to the system too. We still had the issue when he played in ETHs 4231.

 

[Bobski]

I don't see him as a starter in a team that are looking to contend in this league.

He really struggles to move the ball quickly when under pressure, fine at giving simple passes when he has time but when it picks up his passing games drops off extensively. How does he fit into a midfield without putting excessive progressive responsibilities on his partner? Far too one dimensional for me, and that he is subbed pretty much every time they are chasing a game is indicative of that.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Not convinced yet.

 

[DWelbz19]

Must’ve been a sweetener on the Yoro deal. Mendes giveth.

 

[Leftback99]

I don't see him as a starter in a team that are looking to contend in this league.

He really struggles to move the ball quickly when under pressure, fine at giving simple passes when he has time but when it picks up his passing games drops off extensively. How does he fit into a midfield without putting excessive progressive responsibilities on his partner? Far too one dimensional for me, and that he is subbed pretty much every time they are chasing a game is indicative of that.

We're better with Casemiro and Bruno in CM which is damning. He's just a mid table at best player we paid big money for.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

Far from convinced by him. Feels like he gets subbed early or fairly early practically every game he starts.

 

[BuzzKillington]

I thought he was quite poor today.

My opinion of him hasn’t really changed from before we signed him. Useful squad player and worth signing at a price. We paid about £20m too much for him, but he’ll have his uses.

We still need an almost entire new midfield though, because he’s not it.

 

[Bobski]

We're better with Casemiro and Bruno in CM which is damning. He's just a mid table at best player we paid big money for.

A nearly finished Cas trumps Ugarte in tackling volume, which is his best attribute and is levels above on the ball.

It was weird to me how many people looked at the likes of McT and Fred and came to the conclusion (correctly) that we needed fewer limited players in the squad, then championed a signing like this.

 

[Leftback99]

A nearly finished Cas trumps Ugarte in tackling volume, which is his best attribute and is levels above on the ball.

It was weird to me how many people looked at the likes of McT and Fred and came to the conclusion (correctly) that we needed fewer limited players in the squad, then championed a signing like this.

The thing is Casemiro still had high tackling stats even last season which was the attribute everyone was raving about over Ugarte. I never understood it.

 

[Shane88]

He just rats around midfield.

 

[UpWithRivers]

Casemiro is a miles better player in all aspects except athleticism. We downgraded heading, goalscoring, passing - short and long, reading of the game, tackling., all of it and traded it for a player that runs more and has a touch more pace. Which we needed but we needed the other abilities as well.

 

[Idxomer]

I used to get annoyed with Herrera's limited passing, but he was Scholes compared to Ugarte.

Should've gone for Berge and waited for a better player.

 

[redNATION]

Casemiro is a miles better player in all aspects except athleticism. We downgraded heading, goalscoring, passing - short and long, reading of the game, tackling., all of it and traded it for a player that runs more and has a touch more pace. Which we needed but we needed the other abilities as well.

Exactly why PSG got rid of him and got Joao Neves, he has everything Ugarte, plus the attributes you mention.

 

[Irwin99]

Outshone by Casemiro today. I don't think he was terrible but you want a bit better than that.

 

[Raoul]

An average day at the office. Not particularly worse than anyone else given our overall performance.

 

[antohan]

Casemiro is a miles better player in all aspects except athleticism.

Erm... yeah, I'd love to have a 25yo Casemiro instead.

That said, I expect more from Man.u

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

All he does is run around and make tackles. I like him but I can’t say what he offers is something we couldn’t have gotten at a cheaper price elsewhere

 

[Pexbo]

All he does is run around and make tackles. I like him but I can’t say what he offers is something we couldn’t have gotten at a cheaper price elsewhere

After years of having players running around and not making tackles, I really like the cut of his jib

 

[Adnan]

Progression from central areas was woeful again for a team that aspires to challenge for the big honours. I said in the summer this guy was not good enough and his limitations on the ball made him a very poor buy which was obvious to see.

When you're so one dimensional in the deeper build up phase then it will bring down the performances of the rest of the individuals in the team. All your deeper lying midfielders need to have the ability to pass the ball forward and create a threat for the opposition in the present day EPL imo. The talk of signing another midfielder who will progress the ball whilst this chap does the ratting out of possession is a dated concept imo. If you want to sign a Paul Ince or Bryan Robson then at least make a proper attempt, instead of signing a player who runs around without being anywhere close to the aforementioned midfielders in-possession.

 

[Remember the geese]

Progression from central areas was woeful again for a team that aspires to challenge for the big honours. I said in the summer this guy was not good enough and his limitations on the ball made him a very poor buy which was obvious to see.

When you're so one dimensional in the deeper build up phase then it will bring down the performances of the rest of the individuals in the team. All your deeper lying midfielders need to have the ability to pass the ball forward and create a threat for the opposition in the present day EPL imo. The talk of signing another midfielder who will progress the ball whilst this chap does the ratting out of possession is a dated concept imo. If you want to sign a Paul Ince or Bryan Robson then at least make a proper attempt, instead of signing a player who runs around without being anywhere close to the aforementioned midfielders in-possession.

I'm led to believe that Amorim isn't interested in progressive passes from his central midfielders. The progression comes from the centre backs and wing-backs via passes and carries. The central midfielders are there for retention.

 

[Idxomer]

I'm led to believe that Amorim isn't interested in progressive passes from his central midfielders. The progression comes from the centre backs and wing-backs via passes and carries. The central midfielders are there for retention.

Yet he keeps pushing Bruno back, and Casemiro is now preferred to Ugarte.

 

[Devil81]

Another costly mistake, he's far too limited with his passing. This isn't Italy or Spain, he doesn't get time on the ball so he's flicking and snatch at passes and he's technically not good enough to do it.

To make a decent pass he needs to compose himself and he just doesn't get that time in the Premier league.

 

[Still ill]

I mean, neat and tidy on the ball, we conceded not a single chance really through the middle against the current champs, got in great positions a couple of times....I'm happy enough with him at the moment.

 

[DWelbz19]

He doesn’t even make that many tackles. He does run, I guess.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Really fecking annoying we spent a good chunk of money on yet another limited player.

He just runs around but doesn’t actually contribute anything apart from some defensive energy. Was obvious before even signed him too that he was limited, yet INEOS insisted anyways.

 

[Adnan]

I'm led to believe that Amorim isn't interested in progressive passes from his central midfielders. The progression comes from the centre backs and wing-backs via passes and carries. The central midfielders are there for retention.

I think you can get away with that approach in Portugal where having CBs like Diomande, Inacio, Debast and Quaresma provided a very high level of verticality in-possession and with the level of the Portuguese league not being very high outside of the traditional big 3 clubs, you can then have your CBs carry your midfielders in-possession. But I don't think we can get away with that in the EPL and even Jurgen Klopp had to adapt his approach slightly when he arrived at Liverpool, where at Dortmund he had Sven Bender in midfield who was a destroyer type DM with limitations on the ball.

I think like Klopp, it's important for Amorim to adapt his thought process and create the first two lines at CB and midfield which will allow you to control the game with and without the ball. You cannot control the game in a dominant manner without having players who will contribute towards a high level of build up ability in-possession whilst having the pace and athleticism to at the very least contain transitions in a higher line in larger spaces which will allow a higher volume of players to occupy positions in the opponent's half.

I think signing at least one midfielder with requisite qualities opens up the possibility for players like Sekou Kone to threaten Ugarte's position in the team and I think that scenario can only benefit us as a team going forward. Ugarte should imo be used for specific games.

 

[Malone_Post]

I said after just a couple of games it was obvious he was lacking quality, and got pelters for it. Sometimes it’s just obvious when a player is good or not.

He’s just another Herrera/Fred level player.
Works hard, gives his all, very likeable but ultimately massively lacking in quality.

PSG played an absolute blinder getting us to not only help them get back the money they originally paid, but also helping finance the Neves deal.

 

[Remember the geese]

I think you can get away with that approach in Portugal where having CBs like Diomande, Inacio, Debast and Quaresma provided a very high level of verticality in-possession and with the level of the Portuguese league not being very high outside of the traditional big 3 clubs, you can then have your CBs carry your midfielders in-possession. But I don't think we can get away with that in the EPL and even Jurgen Klopp had to adapt his approach slightly when he arrived at Liverpool, where at Dortmund he had Sven Bender in midfield who was a destroyer type DM with limitations on the ball.

I think like Klopp, it's important for Amorim to adapt his thought process and create the first two lines at CB and midfield which will allow you to control the game with and without the ball. You cannot control the game in a dominant manner without having players who will contribute towards a high level of build up ability in-possession whilst having the pace and athleticism to at the very least contain transitions in a higher line in larger spaces which will allow a higher volume of players to occupy positions in the opponent's half.

I think signing at least one midfielder with requisite qualities opens up the possibility for players like Sekou Kone to threaten Ugarte's position in the team and I think that scenario can only benefit us as a team going forward. Ugarte should imo be used for specific games.

I'm intrigued to see if Amorim does what you are suggesting he should and adapt his approach slightly to combat the Premier League. I do like the look of Kone and I feel he may well be a genuine squad option next season.

 

[McLvnsMuse]

It’s amazing that We pay people full time contracts to scout and recruit players. There’s something fraudulent going on at that club. I’m almost convinced they get kickbacks from agents to not do a comprehensive job.

Someone decided after watching Ugarte and seeing the gaps in our midfield that he should be our biggest signing of the summer.

Hes such an obvious mismatch to the profile our midfield has been begging for the past 5 years.

 

[McLvnsMuse]

Our midfield savior can’t finish a game ahead of a very limited Casemiro?

Hes not tall, or pacy, or physical or technical or intense or perpetually available or offensively useful.

 

[No Love]

Slowly starting to look like Claude from GTA3.

 

[Carl]

Oh shit do we not like Ugarte now? I like him personally but whatever.

 

[Borussia Teeth]

I like Ugarte but I also liked Fred and Herrera. All 3 are issues in games against teams we should dominate

 

[LawCharltonBest]

I said after just a couple of games it was obvious he was lacking quality, and got pelters for it. Sometimes it’s just obvious when a player is good or not.

He’s just another Herrera/Fred level player.
Works hard, gives his all, very likeable but ultimately massively lacking in quality.

PSG played an absolute blinder getting us to not only help them get back the money they originally paid, but also helping finance the Neves deal.

Reckon we give him a pre season and some time in a more settled tean first yeah

I don’t think this is the mic drop that you think it is. I think it’ll age badly and I hope it does too of course

 

[Godfather]

He's similar to Fred minus the occasional MotM performance but also minus the absolute brain fecks Fred had from time to time. I'm ok with what he brings to the table

 

[Brightonian]

This forum will always take for granted whatever a player does contribute in order to bitch about what he doesn't. We just looked absolutely rock solid against City - a struggling City, yes, but still a team with every right to expect to batter us given our current league position. In fact we could have played 180 minutes and they probably wouldn't have scored.

Ugarte is the first genuinely solid defensive midfielder we have had since Carrick's better seasons. Yes, he's limited, but his strengths do allow us to have a really progressive midfielder next to him if we want to. And it's not actually preventing us from making chances. We made bucketloads against Forest, and a handful in this extremely conservative game too.

Short version: our shocking lack of cutting edge up front is not Ugarte's fault, and certainly doesn't mean it was a mistake to buy a solid specialist DM. We've needed one for a long time, and he's still it. If in three years we've got back to challenging in the league again and we need to phase him out for someone multi-dimensional, he'll still have done the job we bought him for.